Soft brake pedal, went to to floor, leak under driver's seat

[Silverblu02SL2]

Hey all, haven't posted in a long time. Still have my 2002 SL2 with 62k orig miles (did not sell it). Since I did all the work to get it inspection ready, I've still have not registered it, it's been sitting in the driveway. I'd start it from time to time to move it up/ down the driveway, always started and idled nicely w/o any error codes. Last week I went to start/ move it and it idled kind of rough and the brake pedal felt very soft. I pumped it a few times and it did not help to make the pedal feel any better. I moved the car a few feet slowly and the car barely braked when I stepped on the pedal. Got out to look and saw a puddle behind the car and streaming leak from under the driver's seat. I put a pan there to catch the leak. Checked the master cyl and level was sitting on the botton. Haven't jacked up the car up to have a look yet since I was pretty disgusted to have to deal with it now that cold weather is here.

I've done brake lines on other cars but never on a Saturn. What material are the brake lines made of?

[fetchitfido]

Factory lines are steel.
Nicopp is easier to work with as it's softer and you can get a 3/16in 25ft kit on Amazon for under $40, including 16 fittings. Much better than the FLAPS wanting $30+ for a single 6ft length of it and 2 fittings.

[trottida]

If you're just moving it around the driveway you can pinch that line with a pair of vice grips before the leak. Keep the vice grips on it. Top up your master cylinder and that will get you through.

[Waiex191]

Originally Posted by fetchitfido

Factory lines are steel.
Nicopp is easier to work with as it's softer and you can get a 3/16in 25ft kit on Amazon for under $40, including 16 fittings. Much better than the FLAPS wanting $30+ for a single 6ft length of it and 2 fittings.

You have to measure perfectly and no screwups to succeed with 25'. I recommend a 50' roll.

[Silverblu02SL2]

Just jacked it up and looked under. Both lines under the driver's seat are wet, the one that goes to the driver's rear looks more wet. Driveway is on slight incline with car parked nose up. I am draining the line at the driver's rear caliper. Tomorrow I will blow air into the line to find exactly where the leak is, which is really a waste of time since I should replace both lines to the rear because the one currently not leaking is not far behind from the looks of it. Have not checked the condition of the front lines. Hopefully they are better protected and not rusted out like the rears and not need replacement. The rear lines look like a pita job snaking all over. Any tips / links to posts from those whose done the job?

I should have what's left of a 100' roll of Copper Nickel 3/16" line I bought quite a few years ago. I have a flaring tool for double flare but not sure if it also does bubble flare. Which one is used on the Saturn?

[93twincam]

I just repaired the lines on my SL1 in the same spot. I spliced in new line in the rotted sections since the rest of the lines looked decent and I didn't want to run all new lines.

I know you said you have a flare tool, but may I suggest getting this tool if you just have the generic parts store tool. https://www.amazon.com/Titan-Tools-5...a-568481740226

My local O'Reilly had one on the shelf for a few bucks more than Amazon. Far superior tool over the generic ones. Only downside is it only does one size of line.

[billr]

I think they are bubble flare.

[Waiex191]

Bubble flare.

Originally Posted by Waiex191

Nicopp is the way to go. Both my saturns and my $200 Buick are all nicopp now.

Here is the flare tool you need:
https://www.amazon.com/OTC-4504-Stin.../dp/B0015PMZMU

Here are the new nuts. Yes you can reuse the old ones. Sometimes they don't survive though.
https://www.amazon.com/Metric-Brake-.../dp/B01DAQ0O9W

I can't remember if this link is for 25' or 50'. If you have 50' plenty to do the whole car.
https://www.amazon.com/Nickel-Copper.../dp/B00HFL8BGM

You also need metric flare wrenches. I'll leave that Amazon/Harbor Freight search as homework.

Check out my two threads. There is brake stuff in there somewhere.

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=230898

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=234273

https://buickforums.com/forums/threa...century.52293/

Ok, that was 3 threads, no charge for the $200 Buick documentation.

Don't worry about the spring things. Not really required.

Those nuts are stamped steel. A little PB blaster and they should come off. And you can get new ones at your FLAPS or on Amazon. The real hazard is the studs are weak and may snap off. I got 1/4-20 stainless screws and drilled a hole through the floor. Details on my '99 thread.

[Silverblu02SL2]

From what I read, double flare (aka inverted flare) withstands higher pressure than bubble flare and is what's recommended on brake lines. Guess I'll find out what's on the Saturn when I remove the fittings.

[93twincam]

I think you'll have to make bubble on the ends that attach to the master, but elsewhere I would use double flare if at all possible.

Please do yourself a huge favor and get that Titan 3/16 double flare tool I linked to. The other tool like the one in the previous post works, but only for a while and they're finicky. The titan tool makes a perfect flare, every time and so far hasn't worn out on me, even after using steel brake line. Best ~$50 you'll spend on brake tools.

[Waiex191]

All the parts on the Saturn are set up for metric bubble flares. They work fine. I'm not sure why old skool double flares would be considered better. I did a lot of them on my 60s and 70s cars and I don't prefer them.

[Silverblu02SL2]

Originally Posted by Waiex191

All the parts on the Saturn are set up for metric bubble flares. They work fine. I'm not sure why old skool double flares would be considered better. I did a lot of them on my 60s and 70s cars and I don't prefer them.

OK, so it's bubble flares, thanks! I think I have a bubble flaring tool similar to the one you linked to. Have to round up everything and do some practice bubbles flares. Checked out your rebuild thread. Did you start from the master cyl end to make the runs? The nuts/ studs for the plastic brake line retainer blocks are very rusty. If I use penetrating oil and an impact wrench, will I get them off w/o snapping?

[Waiex191]

I think we ran the lines to the MC from underneath and then screwed them in,. Then work backwards to the hose. With nicopp you can easily bend it for routing. Just get the length right by measuring the old line. Or search for FFR brake line length, if I remember correctly.

Regarding the studs that hold the brake clips up, some will break. We drilled a hole in the floor for a 1/4-20 stainless screw and locknut.


That's from page 9 of my '99 rebuild thread.

Edit:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=236929

[93twincam]

Originally Posted by Waiex191

I think we ran the lines to the MC from underneath and then screwed them in,. Then work backwards to the hose. With nicopp you can easily bend it for routing. Just get the length right by measuring the old line. Or search for FFR brake line length, if I remember correctly.

Regarding the studs that hold the brake clips up, some will break. We drilled a hole in the floor for a 1/4-20 stainless screw and locknut.


That's from page 9 of my '99 rebuild thread.

Edit:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=236929

When you drilled the holes for the 1/4" screws, did you pull up the carpet? What sealer did you use to prevent water intrusion?

[Waiex191]

I pulled up the carpet. No sealer, other than the torque of the bolt. The plastic bracket sort of acts like a gasket.

[Silverblu02SL2]

Were the original plastic bracket mounting bolts through bolts like your 1/4-20 or were they welded studs to the body?

[Waiex191]

Originally Posted by Silverblu02SL2

Were the original plastic bracket mounting bolts through bolts like your 1/4-20 or were they welded studs to the body?

Cheesy spot welded studs and stamped steel nuts. All S Series should be the same.

[Silverblu02SL2]

Originally Posted by Waiex191

Cheesy spot welded studs and stamped steel nuts. All S Series should be the same.

Stamped steel nuts? Cheesy for sure, work of the accountant, not engineer! Isn't there a law that brake lines should be made of rust proof materials. Imagine if the leak happened while I was driving instead of in my driveway, couldn't stop and caused an accident?

So you drilled through the spot welds? Instead of through bolts, I am thinking of using self tapping stainless screws with RTV between plastic line holder and body. What do you think?

[Waiex191]

Originally Posted by Silverblu02SL2

Stamped steel nuts? Cheesy for sure, work of the accountant, not engineer! Isn't there a law that brake lines should be made of rust proof materials. Imagine if the leak happened while I was driving instead of in my driveway, couldn't stop and caused an accident?

So you drilled through the spot welds? Instead of through bolts, I am thinking of using self tapping stainless screws with RTV between plastic line holder and body. What do you think?

I think others have used self-tappers for the same job. That should be fine. I think I used a 1/4" pop rivet for one of them. OldNuc didn't like it.

Originally Posted by OldNuc

Spray those aluminum rivets with heavy undercoating on all sides or the salt and galvanic corrosion will dissolve them rapidly.

[Silverblu02SL2]

Did you remove the old line in one piece as a template to make the bends in the new line?

What I thought was what's left of a 100' roll of CuNi line did not look long enough to do both rears so it must have been a 25' roll. Just ordered a 25' kit from ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/304665849905