Output Shaft Quill Seal Qs

[93twincam]

Originally Posted by billr

Go read from the beginning of this thread to find specific dimensions. I, too, thought it should be a relatively routine task to swap in some standard parts; but cgg17 provided dimensions that show it won't be a cheap task. It is a very tight fit in there, and they used a *******-size to accomplish it. I think I posted back then that a standard, thin-style 30mm bearing could fit, but would require a special bearing-hard and bearing-accurate sleeve be fit on the shaft.

I'm not saying it is an impossible challenge, only that cost is the big factor. How much are folks willing to pay? How many are willing to place a pre-order so that a production run of the parts can be made?

PS: $106 is still a really good price for that housing casting, but how often is a new casting alone damaged and need to be replaced?

I've read this thread several times but reread again incase I missed it. I do not see any mention of output shaft dimensions. Only the few images of the tube dimensions. No mention of bearing dimensions or what bearing ID/OD is needed.

If the bearing is pressed into the tube, the image showing the measurement of the OD at the bearing face of the tube is irrelevant because the actual bearing race OD will be smaller, if it indeed has an outer race that is pressed into that tube piece. Am I misunderstanding?

[billr]

You see no dimensions mentioned in reply #23 above???

There are others, but I am sort on time right now...

[billr]

"Sort on time"? Nah, that should have been "short on time"... no time to proof-read, obviously!

Some of the earlier discussion on this quill was by PM or private email, However, the crucial dimension, .965" for the bearing "inner race" (shaft itself actually) is in that reply #23. I figure a 30mm ID x 38mm OD bearing from IKO could fit, but a precision sleeve would have to be fitted to the shaft. We also discussed metal-spray or plating of the shaft, I will forward some of these discussions (with your private info redacted, cgg17) if anybody wants.

I, too, am willing to do some serious prototyping if anybody will send me an old quill, including shaft. Better yet, the whole trans front housing, so I can work on a way to yank the quill without disassembling the trans.

[cgg17]

Originally Posted by billr

"Sort on time"? Nah, that should have been "short on time"... no time to proof-read, obviously!

Some of the earlier discussion on this quill was by PM or private email, However, the crucial dimension, .965" for the bearing "inner race" (shaft itself actually) is in that reply #23. I figure a 30mm ID x 38mm OD bearing from IKO could fit, but a precision sleeve would have to be fitted to the shaft. We also discussed metal-spray or plating of the shaft, I will forward some of these discussions (with your private info redacted, cgg17) if anybody wants.

I, too, am willing to do some serious prototyping if anybody will send me an old quill, including shaft. Better yet, the whole trans front housing, so I can work on a way to yank the quill without disassembling the trans.

I have come up with another potential workaround, it would allow for the original bearing, shaft, and outer race (the original body) to be used.

Downside is a new snout will have to be manufactured, and the bellhousing will have to be bored out a little bit.

I have CAD renderings, I just need to get them into drawing sheets, and figure out the tolerances required for a good press fit.

Though this will be a more labor intensive process, I think it will save a decent amount of money. And since the seal is usually the issue with the quill assembly, I think re-using the bearings should be alright. The only other issue is the durability of the original plastic bearing cages, but once it is all assembled it should not be an issue.

[93twincam]

Originally Posted by billr

You see no dimensions mentioned in reply #23 above???

There are others, but I am sort on time right now...

oof... My apologies... Apparently I'm so sort on time I can't read.

[93twincam]

Or...

This is a more destructive method, but what if you:
1. Cut roll crimp off
2. Press bearing out by from backside using any means necessary, careful not to damage the tube/housing part
3. Remove old seal
4. Install new seal
5. Take a SECOND used quill seal assembly, carefully cut away the tube/housing so that the old bearing can be removed without damaging it, then press said old bearing into the housing with new seal.

This is obviously a destructive approach and would ruin one bearing and one housing per rebuild, but might be worth exploring if it's all we can do... I would think there's enough transmissions out there that could have quill seals salvaged from to be rebuilt for the few of us S series enthusiasts left... What do you guys think?

[93twincam]

Also, to prevent anyone from ordering it, 21120284 from GMPartsGiant.com does NOT come with the bearing 21120405. They replied to my inquiry and confirmed my suspicions.

Based off OP's experience ordering a housing, the reply I got, I wouldn't order one unless you get a picture that confirms the bearing does come with the housing.

[billr]

I think any scheme to replace just the seal, re-using and old bearing, is too limited to be worthwhile. Yeah, the seal seems to be a problem more often, but sooner-or-later the bearing will need to be replaced with new. Also, although the bearings may not seem to be bad, one common cause of short seal life is a worn bearing.

[93twincam]

Originally Posted by billr

I think any scheme to replace just the seal, re-using and old bearing, is too limited to be worthwhile. Yeah, the seal seems to be a problem more often, but sooner-or-later the bearing will need to be replaced with new. Also, although the bearings may not seem to be bad, one common cause of short seal life is a worn bearing.

All valid points that I understand and agree with. I should have added that I think reusing the bearing with a new seal might be an interim solution for those who are in dier need of a quick fix to get by until a better solution is discovered.

The new seal may very well fail if the bearing is reused, but if one could get 50k or more before the seal becomes an issue again, maybe it would be worth it?

[cgg17]

Originally Posted by billr

I think any scheme to replace just the seal, re-using and old bearing, is too limited to be worthwhile. Yeah, the seal seems to be a problem more often, but sooner-or-later the bearing will need to be replaced with new. Also, although the bearings may not seem to be bad, one common cause of short seal life is a worn bearing.

I completely agree with you on the fact that worn bearings contribute to sealing issues; my problem with the other design/idea is the fact that the shaft diameter will have to be altered to proceed any further with implementing an aftermarket bearing. Finding a company that can properly build up the shaft diameter or create a hardened sleeve may be problematic.

For an economical solution I believe reusing the old bearing (provided signs of wear are not present) is the best current option.

Though I will say that I like the other idea of applying a vacuum to the transmission. Most engines run with continuous vacuum in the crankcase, so why not a transmission?

[billr]

Engines draw the crankcase air in through the air filter for combustion air, and have oil filters, and generally have the oil and filter changed frequently. The trans snout would be drawing in air contaminated with debris from clutch wear, as well as road dirt. Any debris would hit that roller bearing immediately.

Again, I'm not saying it would not work; but I would try a weep hole right in front of the seal first. Let the trans fluid drip away down in the bell-housing before it gets out into the clutch.

[93twincam]

Originally Posted by cgg17

I completely agree with you on the fact that worn bearings contribute to sealing issues; my problem with the other design/idea is the fact that the shaft diameter will have to be altered to proceed any further with implementing an aftermarket bearing. Finding a company that can properly build up the shaft diameter or create a hardened sleeve may be problematic.

For an economical solution I believe reusing the old bearing (provided signs of wear are not present) is the best current option.

Though I will say that I like the other idea of applying a vacuum to the transmission. Most engines run with continuous vacuum in the crankcase, so why not a transmission?

As I mentioned before, I would agree reusing the bearing if it passes inspection is probably the most economical solution at this point, although not ideal.

Originally Posted by billr

Engines draw the crankcase air in through the air filter for combustion air, and have oil filters, and generally have the oil and filter changed frequently. The trans snout would be drawing in air contaminated with debris from clutch wear, as well as road dirt. Any debris would hit that roller bearing immediately.

Again, I'm not saying it would not work; but I would try a weep hole right in front of the seal first. Let the trans fluid drip away down in the bell-housing before it gets out into the clutch.

I also like the weep hole idea.

Question is, how will the bearing be held into the assembly once the crimp has been removed and seal serviced? The OEM put that crimp there for a reason, I wonder how tight the outer bearing race is pressed into the housing? Also, if you decided to take this approach and reuse the old bearing after servicing the seal, maybe that would be a good time to drill a weep hole in the housing as well, in an attempt to buy more time once the seal inevitably begins to leak again?

[cgg17]

Originally Posted by 93twincam

As I mentioned before, I would agree reusing the bearing if it passes inspection is probably the most economical solution at this point, although not ideal.



I also like the weep hole idea.

Question is, how will the bearing be held into the assembly once the crimp has been removed and seal serviced? The OEM put that crimp there for a reason, I wonder how tight the outer bearing race is pressed into the housing? Also, if you decided to take this approach and reuse the old bearing after servicing the seal, maybe that would be a good time to drill a weep hole in the housing as well, in an attempt to buy more time once the seal inevitably begins to leak again?

The bearing package (what I refer to as the bearing and seal portion) is pressed in very tight to the transmission housing. After removing the crimp, the package will still not move unless pressed out, as the crimp just holds the snout to the package.

My thought was to make a new housing and press the existing bearing package into that, after removing the original snout to replace the seal. Then press that into the transmission case that is bored out a little larger than factory.

[93twincam]

Originally Posted by billr

Engines draw the crankcase air in through the air filter for combustion air, and have oil filters, and generally have the oil and filter changed frequently. The trans snout would be drawing in air contaminated with debris from clutch wear, as well as road dirt. Any debris would hit that roller bearing immediately.

Again, I'm not saying it would not work; but I would try a weep hole right in front of the seal first. Let the trans fluid drip away down in the bell-housing before it gets out into the clutch.

So, call me crazy but what if the emissions air pump could provide sufficient vacuum to help reduce seal leakage? I don't know how feasible this is, but maybe something to consider.

EDIT: Or maybe tapping into the airbox pre filter would provide enough vacuum, and the incoming air would be directed through the air filter like normal.

Originally Posted by cgg17

The bearing package (what I refer to as the bearing and seal portion) is pressed in very tight to the transmission housing. After removing the crimp, the package will still not move unless pressed out, as the crimp just holds the snout to the package.

My thought was to make a new housing and press the existing bearing package into that, after removing the original snout to replace the seal. Then press that into the transmission case that is bored out a little larger than factory.

Huh, I must have misunderstood how the cartridge is assembled. I thought the crimp was on the face of the cartridge that presses into the case, the bearing side of the cartridge, not on the snout side. That changes my ideas.

[billr]

The air pump could probably pull enough vacuum, but does it run all the time? Besides, many of us with older gen1 and gen2 never had that pump, and never want one.

Tapping into the intake is not viable. The air entering the trans will be coming in the trans snout, past the seal. It would be pretty hard (impossible? to connect that end of the snout to the air intake, what with the rotating clutch stuff that surrounds the snout end...

[93twincam]

Originally Posted by billr

The air pump could probably pull enough vacuum, but does it run all the time? Besides, many of us with older gen1 and gen2 never had that pump, and never want one.

Tapping into the intake is not viable. The air entering the trans will be coming in the trans snout, past the seal. It would be pretty hard (impossible? to connect that end of the snout to the air intake, what with the rotating clutch stuff that surrounds the snout end...

I don't know if the vac pump runs all the time or not, that's a good question.

As for tapping the intake as a vac source, I'm not sure why the leak location on the trans matters where you source the vacuum? I figured an adapter could be made to fit in the dip stick hole and a line ran from there to the vac source. That way the whole trans case would be under vacuum. I never thought anyone would attempt to attach the line at the snout of the trans as that would be impossible.

I don't know if the dip stick hole is an ideal location either, but it's convenient and easy place to start experimenting.

[billr]

I'm pretty sure that emissions air thingy is configured to be a pump, forcing extra air into the exhaust. That is the way they were when they first appeared in 1965. That means the inlet would have to be restricted for it to function as a vacuum pump, and would probably disrupt its emissions function. So, besides the other problems I mentioned, emissions testing would also have to be considered.

If you apply vacuum to the dip-stick tube and pull a vacuum on the whole trans case, then atmospheric air (and any dirt in it) will flow through any leaks and into the case. That (dirty) air would go through the case, out the dip tube, into the vacuum pump, and out the pump exhaust.

[93twincam]

I guess it's the end of the line for the old S series then.

Hopefully I can get a few more years out of mine before it starts to leak.

[93twincam]

Originally Posted by cgg17

Non-existent. I called a gm dealer that searched the nationwide inventory. These seals/ bearing assemblies are no longer available.

I found an off the shelf bearing and seal that could be pressed into either a new machined casing, or a modified original casing. The issue I am up against at this point is the difference in size between the shaft OD and bearing/ seal ID. A sleeve would be needed, but the sleeve would have to be hardened and fitted over the shaft, as the shaft is also the inner race of the roller bearing.

Thinking more about the sleeve idea, what is preventing us from trying this approach? Is it locating a hardened sleeve of the correct dimensions? McMaster-Carr has made-to-order hardened steel bushing options, where you specify your dimensions and they make them. I'm no bearing expert so I'm not sure if this bushing would work, but hardness is Rockwell C61 which I believe to be similar to bearing race hardness. The price varies depending on how many are made, but if someone wanted to built a kit with bearing, seal, sleeve and a new snout that would bolt to a modified bellhousing, you could recoup the cost selling the kits. Or a group of guys could pitch in to order a batch. https://www.mcmaster.com/hardened-bu...rill-bushings/

I think if the ID dimension of the sleeve was specified correctly, you could freeze the input shaft, heat the bushing and slide it over the shaft for easy installation. If my understanding is correct, there should only be perpendicular forces acting on the bushing so I don't think it would walk down the shaft with a pressed fit.

If using this approach, I'm not sure what to do about the snout. As mentioned before, we would probably have to come up with a new snout that would bolt to the bell housing with drilled and tapped holes.

[SLfun]

Originally Posted by 93twincam

I guess it's the end of the line for the old S series then.

Hopefully I can get a few more years out of mine before it starts to leak.

Me I plan to keep my S Series forever, so I'm starting to look for an automatic trans to swap into my 96 DOHC. I mean it has the ECU from an automatic anyways.

Until then I'm hoping the seal sweller I put in the trans works and keeps trans fluid off the clutch. Fingers crossed I never have to go the automatic route, but I will if I have to.