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Old 11-24-2020, 01:07 AM   #21
454cid
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Default Re: Running hotter after tune up

Quote:
Originally Posted by C52 View Post
Given that the T-stat housing is usually sold with the T-stat, at least now, I think it will be unlikely that it's OEM, how do you tell?

Had an idea tonight when I went out, drove it until it was hotter than normal again, then checked the temp of the hoses. The upper hose was only slightly warm, and the lower hose in front of the T-stat was still "ice cold". So as there is no water circulation I suppose it can only be either the thermostat, or the water pump.
Last I checked, my hoses don't really get hot either. It's been that way since at least when I changed the thermostat last year when it was running too cool. Now the gauge reads normal, and I've driven it many miles. I was not expecting the cold hoses, but apparently it's normal.
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Old 11-24-2020, 01:12 AM   #22
C52
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Default Re: Running hotter after tune up

Having read various threads here on the forums, it seems most recommend a higher temperature thermostat, even though it appears the stock one was 185?

Oreilly's offer a 185 and a 192 murray brand that looks to be the same motorad housing and thermostat almost all FLAPS have. They list the 192 as being for higher altitude. I need it right away and don't have time to be digging around in junkyards and waiting for an online purchased stant to arrive. Which one should I get and why?
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Old 11-24-2020, 09:27 AM   #23
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Default Re: Running hotter after tune up

Quote:
Originally Posted by C52 View Post
Having read various threads here on the forums, it seems most recommend a higher temperature thermostat, even though it appears the stock one was 185?

Oreilly's offer a 185 and a 192 murray brand that looks to be the same motorad housing and thermostat almost all FLAPS have. They list the 192 as being for higher altitude. I need it right away and don't have time to be digging around in junkyards and waiting for an online purchased stant to arrive. Which one should I get and why?
It depends on the climate you live in. If you are in a warm/moderate climate I'd go with the cooler one. If you are in a climate that sees cold weather then I'd go with the warmer one. You'll get better cabin heat with the 192.

The Stant is usually labeled 195 and follows the factory specification which is

Quote:
The stat cracks open at 188F and reaches full flow at 195F and is full extended at about 212F
The temperatures you are referencing for the Murray are likely the crack open temperatures. If you do change the housing keep the original OEM one in case you choose to go with the Stant at a later date. They are hard to come by.

The Motorad usually has Motorad stamped on it. The OEM does not have any manufacture stamping on it. Here are some photos of the OEM housing from this eBay ad for a NIB OEM thermostat with housing.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg OEM Thermostat housing 1.jpg (115.4 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg OEM Thermostat housing 2.jpg (108.6 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg OEM Thermostat housing 3.jpg (98.3 KB, 3 views)
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Last edited by trottida; 11-24-2020 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 11-25-2020, 10:34 PM   #24
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Default Re: Running hotter after tune up

Well after many hours, finally my new T-Stat is installed. No longer is the car running hot, and for the first time I can recall, the temp gauge is reading between a quarter and a half in the cold weather. It used to always stay around a quarter on the gauge when it was cold outside. It is likely the T-stat was bad for many years, I would always wonder why I would run in the low 30's MPG wise in the summer, but that would drop to the mid 20's in the winter. As expected, the installed housing was not the OEM one, but a Motorad, I replaced it with another Motorad. The thermostat itself looks to be quite a different design now compared to failed T-stat.

I had to remove my AC compressor, then one of the bolt heads rounded off on the T-stat bolt, just why did saturn use such soft bolts on this car? I tried to also remove the AC bracket but one of the bolts holding that on also rounded off even with a 6 point impact 10 mm socket. When I finally got it apart I replaced the T-stat bolts with some harder bolts, and replaced the radiator hoses and anti-freeze while I was at it.
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Old 11-26-2020, 05:44 AM   #25
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Default Re: Running hotter after tune up

Quote:
Originally Posted by C52 View Post
It used to always stay around a quarter on the gauge when it was cold outside. It is likely the T-stat was bad for many years, I would always wonder why I would run in the low 30's MPG wise in the summer, but that would drop to the mid 20's in the winter. As expected, the installed housing was not the OEM one, but a Motorad...
My mileage did that too, but I think I had already replaced that thermostat at that point. Now that it's getting colder again, I need to check the mileage. I've gotten kinda lazy about it lately. The thermostat I replaced was an original.

Quote:
I had to remove my AC compressor, then one of the bolt heads rounded off on the T-stat bolt, just why did saturn use such soft bolts on this car? I tried to also remove the AC bracket but one of the bolts holding that on also rounded off even with a 6 point impact 10 mm socket. When I finally got it apart I replaced the T-stat bolts with some harder bolts
Since I got this car, I've been saying that GM must have used some cheaper grade steel for the bolts. I have not had an issue with them being soft, and really they shouldn't be if they as they're a graded bolt..... 10.9 usually. I have had issues with rust.... The bolts seem to rust much more than I'm used to seeing on other vehicles. If you genuinely have softer bolts, and that's a possibility since you have evidence of someone already having been in there, they may have also replaced the bolts with something lower grade.

Quote:
, and replaced the radiator hoses and anti-freeze while I was at it.
Good idea. I replaced the lower hose when I did mine.
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Old 11-26-2020, 02:01 PM   #26
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Default Re: Running hotter after tune up

Quote:
Originally Posted by C52 View Post
Well after many hours, finally my new T-Stat is installed. No longer is the car running hot, and for the first time I can recall, the temp gauge is reading between a quarter and a half in the cold weather. It used to always stay around a quarter on the gauge when it was cold outside. It is likely the T-stat was bad for many years....
You might be one of a few with a t-stat failing hot. As mentioned, the majority of t-stats failing run cooler with the ecm/pcm generating P0128. Replacing the t-stat corrects the problem. Yours was unusual. A reader would display temps before and after replacement.

Plain steel bolts (regardless of grade) galvanically react with aluminum creating corrosion. Dissimilar metals react. I would describe this galvanic reaction between steel and aluminum as creating a form of loctite. Galvanized bolts are recommended. Galvanized bolts have a dull gray finish.
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Old 11-26-2020, 07:34 PM   #27
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Default Re: Running hotter after tune up

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Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Plain steel bolts (regardless of grade) galvanically react with aluminum creating corrosion. Dissimilar metals react. I would describe this galvanic reaction between steel and aluminum as creating a form of loctite. Galvanized bolts are recommended. Galvanized bolts have a dull gray finish.
They are coated, but I don't think they're galvanized... at least not in the same way which I think of it, being "hot dipped". That's too thick.
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Old 11-27-2020, 12:20 PM   #28
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Default Re: Running hotter after tune up

Quote:
Originally Posted by C52 View Post
Given that the T-stat housing is usually sold with the T-stat, at least now, I think it will be unlikely that it's OEM, how do you tell?

Had an idea tonight when I went out, drove it until it was hotter than normal again, then checked the temp of the hoses. The upper hose was only slightly warm, and the lower hose in front of the T-stat was still "ice cold". So as there is no water circulation I suppose it can only be either the thermostat, or the water pump.
Try this simple test. It can be done in the driveway and while the engine is cold.

Start the car with the reservoir cap off and look through the reservoir. You should see a steady stream of coolant flowing at the back of the tank. If you do NOT see coolant flowing then you have a problem with air in your cooling system.
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Old 11-27-2020, 05:25 PM   #29
C52
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Default Re: Running hotter after tune up

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
You might be one of a few with a t-stat failing hot. As mentioned, the majority of t-stats failing run cooler with the ecm/pcm generating P0128. Replacing the t-stat corrects the problem. Yours was unusual. A reader would display temps before and after replacement.
I don't remember my temp gauge ever functioning as it does now in the 10 years I've owned my car. With the way the heat works in these newer cars there was never a lack of heat in the winter, so I never thought anything of it.

It is entirely possible my T-stat did fail in the stuck open position and was that way for the 10 years I've owned the car, and after all of that time finally failed in the stuck closed position.
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Old 11-27-2020, 06:56 PM   #30
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Default Re: Running hotter after tune up

You'd definitely notice a colder running t-stat if you're in the snow belt as the majority of S-series owners complained of a lack of heat. Once the t-stat was replaced, complaints of too much heat followed but easier to dial down heat than not having enough when its freezing outside. The t-stats that failed were mostly from overheating due to the original coolant sensor - damage creating a negative temperature signal to the pcm resulting in rich running and many other issues. With incorrect temperature signals, the pcm isn't aware of the engine overheating in summer temps with the cooling fan never turning on, This results in the engine overheating, melting the seal on t-stats. Example below. With melted seals, coolant flows continually with lower cooling system temps. Once the faulty coolant sensor and t-stat are replaced, instant startup returns, rich fuel mixtures goes away, and heater returns for warm driving in cold weather. The entire run of S-series from '91-'01 carried the original round nosed coolant sensor. The flat nosed brass one corrected the problem along with t-stat replacement. A GM service bulletin to replace the coolant sensor came very late when damage was already done.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg t-stat 1.jpg (119.6 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg plastic-brass cts.jpg (84.4 KB, 5 views)
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