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Old 09-05-2002, 08:49 PM   #41
Yankeez
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I can see it with the oversized muffler and type R sticker already....

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Old 09-05-2002, 10:21 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yankeez
I can see it with the oversized muffler and type R sticker already....
Youre forgetting the dumb-ass "Powered By Honda" window banner...

Is anyone really getting how bad this is for Saturn? They look like idiots. Saturn has NOTHING anymore. No independent platforms, no homegrown technology, not even thier own motors. And we all know the days of Polymer are numbered.

Quote:
It's just upsetting to see GM use the Honda power plant. But I guess GM didn't have a choice.
Not true. The Honda V6 agreement was inked in 1999 when Honda wasn't so sure it would have enough of a market for the engines to make the cost of a new plant economically viable. The Odysee prior to 2000 was an "also ran" Minivan...and it didn't have the MDX, Pilot, etc... IMO, the sale of the v6 to GM was 1)a way of hedging thier bets in case the sales to support the V6s didn't materialize 2)GM wanted(and still does) desperately to find something that Isuzu could be useful at...theyve been a real basket case for GM...selling the diesels to Honda was so important for Isuzu that GM was probably willing to agree to just about anything to finalize the deal...even something as downright idiotic as using your #1 competitors motor.

When you purchase a motor in this fashion it cuts into the profit margin on a vehicle...Honda is not selling them "at cost". When you build your own powertrain inhouse, you "sell" it to assembly 'at cost'...that powertrain operation doesn't need to turn its own profit.


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And the Honda 3.5 will not disappoint there.
There's plenty of stories out there of Honda motors with problems...and the new RSX motor has developed a reputation for oil consumption...perhaps that motor will be next to be purchased for Saturn? It would fit right in with Saturn's long history of 4 bangers with a taste for 5W30.

At anyrate, this is done deal...at least for the next four years or so. So, lets get out those cheap badges, stickers, wings, coffee can mufflers or other rice accessories and show some real Saturn..er Honda pride(fest)....where's Piney's vomiting avatar when you need it

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Old 09-06-2002, 11:56 AM   #43
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Interesting Reactions I have seen here.....

My question is:

Do we HATE the V6 Motor, or do we just HATE the HONDA as a Jap company?

What about GM was not inking the V6 swap deal with Honda, but BMW or VeeDub instead? Any hate still?

Saturn's current V6 is not directly from GM or Saturn either....it's the German engineering thing we all love NOT to hate......

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Old 09-06-2002, 12:08 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Qlara
Interesting Reactions I have seen here.....

My question is:

Do we HATE the V6 Motor, or do we just HATE the HONDA as a Jap company?


Saturn's current V6 is not directly from GM or Saturn either....it's the German engineering thing we all love NOT to hate......
I wouldn't be any happier if it were a ford motor. I just don't like it.

The present v6 is totally GM, just not Saturn, per se.

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Old 09-06-2002, 01:03 PM   #45
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A lot of people hate hondas here .. and with Saturn being GM's "import fighter" to compete against honda, its the ultimate irony.

But lets face it .... if saturn wasnt around, we'd be probably shopping for a japanese car -- statistically speaking.

I cant stand most hondas, there are some i like. I wouldnt mind one of their V6 engines in the VUE -- especially with the potential for more power/torque with the larger displacement. And since the head is being customized, GM might even look into using VVT -- but im just trying to be hopeful.

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Old 09-06-2002, 01:29 PM   #46
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Ideal engine: GM design, top quality, built in the US.

The current Vue V6 only satisfies one of those requirements. A Honda V6 satisfies 2. So, if it's a given that the Vue won't be getting one of these new "high feature" or "high value" V6's, then my vote is for the Honda. Not the ideal situation, but I like a Ohio Honda engine better than a Brit GM engine.

jeff

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Old 09-06-2002, 01:37 PM   #47
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.....and with the history of brit cars, its amazing this damn L81 even works j/k

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Old 09-06-2002, 01:46 PM   #48
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The ecotech 4 cyl has been an excellent engine. And it's the easiest to change the oil filter on. The engine is smooth. Delivers enough power and is fuel efficeint. So if GM can do this with the Ecotech they can do in the US with a 6 cyl. I believe from what I read here that they have some good 6 cyl.s. Hondas buying the Isuzu diesals as part of this deal I believe.

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Old 09-06-2002, 01:51 PM   #49
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I suppose honda is hitting europe with their new diesels?

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Old 09-06-2002, 02:02 PM   #50
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Now the Honda fans would hate the same deal maybe?

Honda vehicles with GM diesel powerplant......is it still a Honda?!

As for the originality of L81 V6, isn't it designed by SAAB at first then bring it to Opel?

Either case, this V6 is still NOT designed by domestics GM here......just from its subsidiaries.

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Old 09-06-2002, 02:21 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Qlara
Now the Honda fans would hate the same deal maybe?

Honda vehicles with GM diesel powerplant......is it still a Honda?!

As for the originality of L81 V6, isn't it designed by SAAB at first then bring it to Opel?

Either case, this V6 is still NOT designed by domestics GM here......just from its subsidiaries.
Look Honda fans had to deal a rebaged Isuzu Passport a few years back

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Old 09-06-2002, 03:04 PM   #52
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Roll Eyes

Very true! Honda got bashed by such a 'cheap' approach to SUV market......however; they reacted so quickly and pull off the new line of Honda CRV, Pilot and BEST Acura MDX!

There's not what GM/Saturn can do for now.....no wonder Honda fans keep loving this company!

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Old 09-06-2002, 06:59 PM   #53
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Default hard decision

There is a similar discussion to this one over at http://www.cheersandgears.com/. They post an article from Ward's onthe subject. Appaently the decission to buy Honda motors was a contencious one. I don't know if the heated debate with GM about this subject makes feel better or worse at the final outcome.

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Old 09-07-2002, 08:03 AM   #54
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Why not use the new inline 6 or 5
Chris


http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpower...line/index.htm

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Old 09-07-2002, 09:01 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by L300Boy

I cant stand most hondas, there are some i like. I wouldnt mind one of their V6 engines in the VUE -- especially with the potential for more power/torque with the larger displacement. And since the head is being customized, GM might even look into using VVT -- but im just trying to be hopeful.

And GM already has Variable Valve Timing technology. The 270HP 4.2L DOHC Inline 6 uses it. A five cylinder version of this motor(which is being produced for the new GM small trucks) would be a great idea for the VUE. I wonder if it would fit however, given the size of the engine bay.



Quote:
Very true! Honda got bashed by such a 'cheap' approach to SUV market......however; they reacted so quickly
Oh no, not quickly at all. The crappy Honda Passport was sold for 8 years...from mid 1993(1994MY) until this years Honda Pilot debut. The even crappier Acura SLX ran from 1996 MY(1995) before being put to death in 1999 due to embarassingly bad sales. The Odysee based 2001 MDX replaced it.

The CRV is a cute ute, and didn't compete in the same class as the Passport/SLX/MDX/Pilot. None of the big SUV companies seen this coming, the Rav4 and CRV were instant hits. The VUE is GM's 'slow' response.

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Old 09-07-2002, 10:16 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by cawoodruff
Why not use the new inline 6 or 5
Chris


http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpower...line/index.htm
thanks for the excellent link chriss. Although these are probably going to be excellent engines, I don't believe that they could esily be turned sideways for the VUE application.

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Old 09-08-2002, 05:23 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by haypops
thanks for the excellent link chriss. Although these are probably going to be excellent engines, I don't believe that they could esily be turned sideways for the VUE application.
I think they may plan to use either the I4 or I5 in the minivans.
They defentily are using them in the new "S10" and I think i saw mentioned that the chevy version of the VUE would use these engines. (Maybe I am wrong I can't seem to find the link any more)

So putting them in the VUE is possible.
the two difculties are the transmission and oil pan.

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Old 09-08-2002, 06:35 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Plastic Gravity
Oh no, not quickly at all. The crappy Honda Passport was sold for 8 years...from mid 1993(1994MY) until this years Honda Pilot debut. The even crappier Acura SLX ran from 1996 MY(1995) before being put to death in 1999 due to embarassingly bad sales. The Odysee based 2001 MDX replaced it.

The CRV is a cute ute, and didn't compete in the same class as the Passport/SLX/MDX/Pilot. None of the big SUV companies seen this coming, the Rav4 and CRV were instant hits. The VUE is GM's 'slow' response.
I thought Passport and Pilot are 2 different vehicles, but not a direct replacement? :o: And with just 3 years they can crank out a new and ride-to-the-top platform like MDX did, is not something Saturn/GM can follow, agree not?

CRV, don't even mention this line from Honda, they almost help to sharp the 'new standards' for car-base SUVs, where a lot of city-slickers love!

Our Saturn VUE maybe a new kid on the block, but very late to the party.

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Old 09-08-2002, 11:28 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Qlara
I thought Passport and Pilot are 2 different vehicles, but not a direct replacement? :o: And with just 3 years they can crank out a new and ride-to-the-top platform like MDX did, is not something Saturn/GM can follow, agree not?
The Pilot and Passport are in the same class. The Pilot is nearly the same vehicle as the MDX, just with (get this) even duller looks. And the MDX wasn't just an "overnight' design. Its descended from the Odysee, much of that is from the Accord. Honda has been working on an inhouse big SUV since 1993. The abysmal Passport was a rebadged Isuzu sold as a stopgap measure until Honda had the infrastructure to build its own truck SUV...or in this case Minivan SUV.

The VUE is descended much in the same way...much of its chassis was based on the L, if I'm not mistaken. And the VUE was rather quick to market after they got the go ahead.

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