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Old 05-08-2014, 02:59 PM   #1
Saturn2002SL2
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Default Is GM Stupid?

I know there may have been other threads about this. Why did GM discontinue their Saturn brand? Saturn was/is in competition with Japanese cars like Mazdas and such. GM should have at least kept the Sky or SL2. I wish GM brings back some type of Saturn in 2016 or 2017.

Before I got my '02 SL2, I had an '88 RX7. In my opinion the '88 X7 and the '02 SL2 are the same cars based on my experience using both. Both have/had 5-speed, and the torque was pretty much the same. Bottom line, through my experience both are the same.

So, with that being said, GM should bring back a Sky or an SL2
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Old 05-08-2014, 03:14 PM   #2
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Default Re: Is GM Stupid?

For all intents and purposes Saturn stopped being Saturn at the end of the 2002 model year (last year of the "S" series) from than no all they did was rebadge other GM products ION = Cobalt, Aura = Malibu, Astra = Opel, L series = Opel, heck even the "S" series was basically a Vauxhall designed product brought to Tennessee. Really the "S" was the epitome of Saturn it was also the end of Saturn because as good as it was it did not rise to the competition. Compared to others it was short on creature comfort, was an oil burner, and wasn't necessarily the prettiest girl on the block.
To it's credit, they were rugged as all get out, did at least have some personality, and was at least a little fun to drive. Unfortunately cars from GM, Toyota, and Honda (and sadly even Ford) were leaving it far behind even if the "S" could hold up to far more abuse than many of them
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Old 05-08-2014, 03:43 PM   #3
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Default Re: Is GM Stupid?

as a gm dealer tech i gotta tell ya gm ain't totaly stupid.. the simple fact is people vote with their money and saturn was a nich market and not enough people bought them to keep the line alive..this is evedent all across the gm line up.. the cadillac xlr and the new volts&elr's come to mind..they do a survey and 9 out of 10 people say oh yea i would buy that..we still have 7 of 9 elr's stitting on the lot..i know of 2 customers who were all about the elr and were going to purchase them when they came out... now they won't pick up the phone..and so the cars we ordered for them sit,waiting for a buyer....
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Old 05-08-2014, 03:46 PM   #4
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Default Re: Is GM Stupid?

Again?

Bury the _____ thing already
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Old 05-08-2014, 05:16 PM   #5
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Default Re: Is GM Stupid?

^^^^ LMFAO

Im sure if GM wanted to they could have made a gen4 Saturn S series that could have competed with the competition.
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Old 05-08-2014, 07:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: Is GM Stupid?

I have nothing (positive) to add that I didn't say last time this subject came up. We got a little sidetracked.

However,...
One thing I found since then was from the BBC. Interesting reading.

Note my relativeís names:
Rose, Gilbert and Floyd (organizer, striker at Chevrolet, UAW official)
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us


Think what you will. - They were hard core. People didn't used to be such push-overs.

Here's the BBC article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/dna/place-lanc.../plain/A672310

(The following is from BBC)
The Strike Begins
When the night shift reported to work at the Fisher Body Plant Number One on 30 December, 1936, they were greeted by the sight of a string of railway cars being loaded with the manufacturing equipment in the plant. It was obvious that GM was planning to move production to a less unionized area. Workers immediately notified the union, which had its headquarters directly across the street from the factory. Union organisers hung a 200 watt red lamp in the office window, that being the prearranged signal for an emergency lunch hour meeting. At the meeting, which was crowded, the workers decided that the equipment represented their jobs, and so had to stay where it was.
Henry Kraus, a UAW editor who was at the meeting, described what came next:
The men stood still facing the door. It was like trying to chain a natural force. They couldn't hold back and started crowding forward. Then suddenly, they broke through the door and made a race for the plant gates, running in every direction towards the quarter-mile-long buildings.
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Old 05-08-2014, 07:53 PM   #7
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Default Re: Is GM Stupid?

The S-Series was the only completely proprietary (and thus "true") Saturn. The process of GM absorbing Saturn into the GM mainstream and the alienation of the most loyal of Saturn's customer base began late in the life of the S-Series, when it was decided that Saturn's first step toward a long overdue expanded product line would be simply a disguised version of a non-Saturn GM product (Opel Vectra), which would be built in a non Saturn GM facility (Wilmington, DE). I had recently bought a new '97 SL2 when that announcement was made. Although I wasn't a rah-rah "Saturn Homecoming" type I was somewhat in the whole "Saturn experience" loop, and the reaction from Saturn loyalists and dealership personnel people was generally not good, to say the least. In retrospect, the criticism was justified. The L series, or at least what it ominously represented, really was the beginning of the Saturn death spiral.

The eventual replacement for the S-Series, the Ion, and the first generation Vue were "half" Saturns. They were built in Spring Hill, but GM was gradually turning off the Saturn product development money spigot, so Saturn was forced to use shared, non Saturn GM platforms and drivetrains.

Once the Ion died largely of GM-inflicted wounds (for example, the VTi) and the gen 2 Vue was changed into a totally corporate GM product built in Mexico, the final nail was in the coffin. All Saturn models from then on were Saturns in name only, built on shared GM platforms with GM corporate drivetrains, assembled in shared GM factories, with a Saturn name badge stuck on them.

As for Saturn's birth, evolution, and how and why it died (or was deliberately and systematically murdered), it is a complicated story with many factors that could easily fill a book.
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Old 05-08-2014, 08:38 PM   #8
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Default Re: Is GM Stupid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn2002SL2 View Post
I know there may have been other threads about this. Why did GM discontinue their Saturn brand?
No profit made to a losing line. GM tried their "experiment" but never supported Saturn since the money makers were other models. Saturn was considered the step child in the GM family right from the beginning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn2002SL2 View Post
So, with that being said, GM should bring back a Sky or an SL2
Simply put, it ain't gonna happen. While this may be debatable, GM created nothing more than a corporate version of a Ponzi scheme that worked for years and made money for many people including investors but in the end the corporate structure simply became so top heavy with so much inbreeding of fighting factions that downsizing was considered an expletive to over paid top executives concerned about their salaries than long term corporate management.
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Old 05-09-2014, 02:59 AM   #9
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Default Re: Is GM Stupid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohioguy98 View Post
The S-Series was the only completely proprietary (and thus "true") Saturn. The process of GM absorbing Saturn into the GM mainstream and the alienation of the most loyal of Saturn's customer base began late in the life of the S-Series, when it was decided that Saturn's first step toward a long overdue expanded product line would be simply a disguised version of a non-Saturn GM product (Opel Vectra), which would be built in a non Saturn GM facility (Wilmington, DE). I had recently bought a new '97 SL2 when that announcement was made. Although I wasn't a rah-rah "Saturn Homecoming" type I was somewhat in the whole "Saturn experience" loop, and the reaction from Saturn loyalists and dealership personnel people was generally not good, to say the least. In retrospect, the criticism was justified. The L series, or at least what it ominously represented, really was the beginning of the Saturn death spiral.

The eventual replacement for the S-Series, the Ion, and the first generation Vue were "half" Saturns. They were built in Spring Hill, but GM was gradually turning off the Saturn product development money spigot, so Saturn was forced to use shared, non Saturn GM platforms and drivetrains.

Once the Ion died largely of GM-inflicted wounds (for example, the VTi) and the gen 2 Vue was changed into a totally corporate GM product built in Mexico, the final nail was in the coffin. All Saturn models from then on were Saturns in name only, built on shared GM platforms with GM corporate drivetrains, assembled in shared GM factories, with a Saturn name badge stuck on them.

As for Saturn's birth, evolution, and how and why it died (or was deliberately and systematically murdered), it is a complicated story with many factors that could easily fill a book.
Though this has been beaten into the ground, Ohioguy98's post nails it best in this particular thread (in contrast to those who comment on the S-series as "not that good"). This article from Forbes also nails it pretty well:

http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/08/sat...g-failure.html
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Old 05-09-2014, 06:40 AM   #10
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Default Re: Is GM Stupid?

Good Forbes article.

Can be summed up in this excerpt: "What happened to that 1990s success story? Despite what you may read elsewhere, there were just two underlying forces behind Saturnís demise: GMís insistence on managing all its divisions centrally with a tight fist, and the demand by leadership at both GM and the UAW that Saturn get in line with traditional ways of doing things."

Dang it.
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Old 05-09-2014, 07:30 AM   #11
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^^^That has killed more endeavors than it is possible to count. Central Management or planning and truculent labor force. Does a good job on killing countries as well.
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Old 05-09-2014, 07:53 AM   #12
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Quote:
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^^^That has killed more endeavors than it is possible to count. Central Management or planning and truculent labor force. Does a good job on killing countries as well.
Yup. Need to get past this ****.
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Old 05-09-2014, 09:23 AM   #13
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Default Re: Is GM Stupid?

Hello, To answer the Question that was asked. For the federal bailout money GM had to shut down 3 divisions to get the money. The fed owned GM for a while till they paid them back. Saturn wasn't dying. The new Aura replacement was the Opel Insignia. That is the Buick Regal now. They had to get rid of Pontiac also. The thing that made me mad was Pontiac sold more cars than Chevy but Chevy trucks were also counted as units sold. So Hummer, Pontiac, and Saturn were done. Rick
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Old 05-09-2014, 12:18 PM   #14
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Quote:
The fed owned GM for a while till they paid them back.
The TAXPAYERS owned GM while the Fed ran it the rest of the way into the ground and then sold the stock at a net LOSS to the TAXPAYERS. Not to mention the bondholders who got fleeced in the original bankruptcy/bailout deal. If the company would have been allowed to go through the proper and legal bankruptcy process it is intuitively obvious that the TAXPAYERS would not be on the hook for several billion dollars and GM may be worth something today. GM is in the process of going under again.
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Old 05-09-2014, 12:23 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
The TAXPAYERS owned GM while the Fed ran it the rest of the way into the ground and then sold the stock at a net LOSS to the TAXPAYERS. Not to mention the bondholders who got fleeced in the original bankruptcy/bailout deal. If the company would have been allowed to go through the proper and legal bankruptcy process it is intuitively obvious that the TAXPAYERS would not be on the hook for several billion dollars and GM may be worth something today. GM is in the process of going under again.
Correct-a-mungo. The TAXPAYERS lost Billions!

A LOT Gov't is unnecessary and should be dismantled.
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Old 05-09-2014, 12:26 PM   #16
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Default Re: Is GM Stupid?

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Before I got my '02 SL2, I had an '88 RX7. In my opinion the '88 X7 and the '02 SL2 are the same cars based on my experience using both.
Srsly?

I had a 1980 RX7 and it was a sheer blast to drive. RWD, balanced weight(engine located behind front axles), very smooth 5 spd, very stable platform. The rotary engine was so smooth at high RPM that Mazda installed a buzzer to let you know you were redlining.

Sold it because I couldn't hit more than 25 mpg or so, all hwy, and I had a 1979 Porsche 924 at the same time that was very similar in handling, but I could count on 30+ mpg

I love the Saturn as a workhorse... 34 mpg on winter gas, commuting, but it's FWD and front-heavy, understeer, 5 spd is adequate at best, heavy winds make me nervous, and I can feel and hear when I exceed much pas 3.5k rpm or so

OTOH, they both burn a lot of oil... the RX7 was by design, though
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Old 05-09-2014, 06:29 PM   #17
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Default Re: Is GM Stupid?

Saturn was a "dead man walking" by the time of the bailout, easily the GM division most vulnerable to the ax. There were rumblings of trouble ahead and much handwringing among the dealers and employees even as early as the late '90s. Saturn and its dealers were being starved for new product and an expanded lineup. Customers who needed or wanted something bigger than the S-Series had to leave Saturn to get it. Trouble was definitely on the horizon. The thing that made Saturn "a different kind of car company", which was critical in its original concept, identity, and the loyalty of its core customer base, was that until 2004 it was only a subsidiary of GM. Even people who were typically anti-GM bought Saturns. It's whole identity was that it wasn't the typical GM way of doing things. Note how they were careful to keep all GM emblems and mentions in owners manuals away from the S-Series. That was purposely done. However, GM ultimately controlled the purse strings, and beginning in the late '90s their answer to Saturn's need for an updated and expanded product line was to impose the exact thing that Saturn was supposed to be the answer to - typical GM "badge engineering".

By the time of the bailout, Saturn had become simply a redundant division in search of an identity in the GM lineup. There was talk for a while in the early '00s of it becoming GM's Opel-Vauxhall division in the US, and of it being repositioned into Oldsmobile's slot in the GM hierarchy, but Saturn's formerly loyal fan base had by that time been alienated and gone elsewhere, and there was no compelling market reason for GM to keep Saturn.
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Old 05-09-2014, 06:52 PM   #18
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The truth of this story is GM is a company in search of an identity. They are all the same under the sheet metal. The uniqueness of Saturn was being unraveled by the late 90s, 97-98 time frame.
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Old 05-09-2014, 09:25 PM   #19
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Default Re: Is GM Stupid?

I think they just should've stayed with the S-Series & kept refining & improving to make the ultimate small & efficient car.

But that's just me & maybe I'm wrong.
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Old 05-09-2014, 11:06 PM   #20
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GM was actively attempting to kill it off by 95. This presented quite a problem as you can imagine.
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