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Old 12-25-2018, 12:25 AM   #21
Saturn Night
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexofNazareth View Post

Hell, if you razor blade tabs off an Automatic PCM connector, you can use an Automatic PCM on a manual car to remove the Rev and speed limiters.

Please stop spreading misinformation.
Yes, because it is completely practical to remove the rev limiter on a 3rd Gen DOHC because why?

Speaking of misinformation, since you and the 6s group are so knowledgeable, tell all of us in your splendor and grandiose wisdom WHY one needs to rev their engine to over 6,500rpms(when fuel cutoff is 6,750 to prevent the crank from throwing rods out of the block), when the engine's restrictions of narrow head ports and the plastic intake manifold only make horsepower to 5,600rpms?

Little lesson in making a race car, since you showboats over at 6s speak of very little experience on:

When you drive your race car, you want the gearing and shifting to typically occur at peak HP rpm, back to peak torque rpm(which in the case of the Saturn 1.9L DOHC is 4,800rpm).

Running past 5,600rpms wastes both engine and time, because as crankshaft rotational speeds are increased, crankshaft torque(or POWER OUTPUT) is decreased.

Guess you guys at least know about engine swaps, since you sound like the type that would frequently blow your engines from doing stupid stunts such as removing the rev limiter, so you can look cool with the tach in the red area.....(the reason it is red is because you are NOT supposed to run the gauge needle into that area.....)

And there is no counter with turbo builds, dual intake cams, etc, because most of those engine builds require an aftermarket control module, such as a megasquirt, which probably gets pretty interesting to bypass the Passlock-II system considering the megasquirt doesn't have Passlock-II software.

Then again, I should expect nothing less from the same guy that tried telling me the plastic manifolds flow higher CFMs than the 1st Gen/2nd Gen aluminum manifolds(which the plastic manifolds have longer intake runners for favoring better low-rpm torque curves, while sacrificing high-rpm flow and HP).
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Old 12-25-2018, 11:52 PM   #22
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

Sure, revving a stock motor past the set redline doesn't net any power benefits in a stock application, but for circle track racers and individuals with performance cams, there is a benefit to increasing the redline.

As far as shifting goes, you don't shift at "peak HP". Lower gears have greater torque multiplication than the next ratio, so you can calculate the output Driveforce to the wheels for a specified engine torque curve to understand when you will be producing less Driveforce in the current gear compared to the next gear. Obviously this point does occur around 6000 RPM for the stock torque curve.

Revving over 7000rpm doesn't cause rods to spit out of the block, so stop being dramatic. Upgrade the valve springs and that will alleviate most worries about high RPM operation.

For applications using Megasquirt, the stock PCM is left in place. Megasquirt takes over controls for fueling and ignition timing, but the Stock PCM can still control the fuel pump to avoid having to wire up your own relays. So there is in fact no issue with Passlock while using Megasquirt.

And your last comment about the plastic IM is wrong. I stated that the manifold had more even flow to the cylinders compared to the AL manifold. I said nothing about flowrate differences.

I'll reiterate, please stop commenting about things you don't understand.
Let's help this young lady successfully complete her swap instead of polluting this thread any further...
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Old 12-26-2018, 02:15 AM   #23
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexofNazareth View Post
Sure, revving a stock motor past the set redline doesn't net any power benefits in a stock application, but for circle track racers and individuals with performance cams, there is a benefit to increasing the redline.

As far as shifting goes, you don't shift at "peak HP". Lower gears have greater torque multiplication than the next ratio, so you can calculate the output Driveforce to the wheels for a specified engine torque curve to understand when you will be producing less Driveforce in the current gear compared to the next gear. Obviously this point does occur around 6000 RPM for the stock torque curve.

Revving over 7000rpm doesn't cause rods to spit out of the block, so stop being dramatic. Upgrade the valve springs and that will alleviate most worries about high RPM operation.

For applications using Megasquirt, the stock PCM is left in place. Megasquirt takes over controls for fueling and ignition timing, but the Stock PCM can still control the fuel pump to avoid having to wire up your own relays. So there is in fact no issue with Passlock while using Megasquirt.

And your last comment about the plastic IM is wrong. I stated that the manifold had more even flow to the cylinders compared to the AL manifold. I said nothing about flowrate differences.

I'll reiterate, please stop commenting about things you don't understand.
Let's help this young lady successfully complete her swap instead of polluting this thread any further...
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=235784

This would be the thread where you stated the plastic manifolds are supposedly better for performance, then decided to argue with me about the issue.

And as far as torque multiplication, I am well-aware of how torque is multiplied by gears, the effects of over revving an engine, average piston speeds, centrifugal forces on the main bearings, and piston "stretch".

Just like you show boat, know-it-all types at 6s, I have built a Chevy 283. I have studied the physics of how an engine operates. I have felt the difference between lateral acceleration of a car when its engine is between the peak torque rpm and peak HP rpm vs past the peak HP rpms.

You know what is so ironic, I see all kinds of comments from you, on the sixthsphere website, and even in your signature about the Deeb's build, yet every web browser I have tried to view his webpage with gives me an HTTP 403 error for forbidden access.

Just a little FYI, there are absolutely NO BENEFITS to revving an engine past its peak HP rpm for any reason. Unless, of course, you like swapping out your blown engine after spinning a bearing or floating and burning the valves. Which the 3rd Gen DOHC valve train can handle above 6,500rpms from the roller camshafts, as opposed to the flat-tappet cams used in 1991-1999 engines. The 6,750rpm fuel cutoff is due to average piston speed being too high because of the stroke length and rotational mass of the crankshaft. The 5,500rpm redline on SOHCs is due to valve train limitations of the rocker arm assembly.

THIS would be a subject that YOU know very little about, in comparison to me, so please allow those of us that actually know what we are talking about help this young lady with her swap.
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:06 AM   #24
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

Longitudinal acceleration.
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Old 12-27-2018, 10:48 AM   #25
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaturnGirl02 View Post
Progress Update!

So my dad and I continued working on the car today, we disconnected the remaining wires as well as the brake lines and a few other things we'd missed, then we lowered the car and unbolted the engine, leaving it on the ground. We proceeded to raise the car above the engine on jacks and slid the engine out with a small jack partway underneath it, pulling with that while pushing the tires, and it is now completely out! Ready to go (with several days of work!) into the non-wrecked body. I will continue to post updates as we go!

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!

Good progress. Now you just have to do it one more time to the SC2, and then reverse the process one time to make the SC 1.5

With the combinations you stated for windows and such, the best path IMO would be the SC1 PCM, and leave the SC2 BCM alone.

Ignore the thread drift. It happens. But there are plenty of people that can usually figure out any issues if you can ignore the noise.
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Old 12-29-2018, 02:46 PM   #26
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

Hope everyone had a great Christmas/whatever other holiday you may celebrate!

I have worked a little bit on the car over the past few days, and today should be putting the engine at least mostly back in.

In the meantime, I cleaned the engine, dragged the new car body over on a rigged axle and jacks and cleaned it, changed the motor mounts (two cracked in the accident and I just went ahead and changed all of them), the belt, and a sensor I'd had a code for and just ignored because it didn't affect the car running lol. More pictures from today's progress will be posted later!
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Old 12-29-2018, 11:34 PM   #27
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

New Question

So we have put the engine assembly into the clean body, and have begun hooking things up (will post picture probably tomorrow!). We have most everything together, noticing some differences between certain connectors, which will have to be switched from the old wiring harness in order to fit properly.

However, my major as of now concern is that the power steering is not the same... there is an assembly with a wire that needs to be plugged in coming off an SC2 motor (shown in the photo) that is not present on the SC1 motor I am working on (although the SC2 body has this plug of course and nowhere to put it). I assume this is EVO variable assist steering. I am assuming that if I just leave that wire unplugged as it has nowhere to go, everything will work fine and since I will be using the computer from the SC1 the car will have no idea it was ever supposed to have EVO steering, but I wanted to run it past you guys to get some input.

As another line of thinking, what if I took the whole assembly off the motor of an SC2 that had it? Would it work on the SC1 engine? Or would it not function and the computer not recognize it?

Thanks as always for your help! I should get to the point of test starting the car tomorrow so I will know for sure that it runs. Fingers crossed!
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Old 12-30-2018, 12:59 AM   #28
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

Another potentially major issue I have run into is the fuel lines... They are not the same and the connections do not match up... Obviously I cannot just switch them like the wires, so I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do about the difference. Again, assistance is greatly appreciated!
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Old 12-30-2018, 11:48 AM   #29
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

Keep the bracket from the head/block to the power steering pump with the pump, the PCM/BCM doesn't check for the presence of the EVO valve so there's no "problem detected" light to turn on by not having it connected. All it does is turn off power assist at 55mph anyway, no big loss. The bracket has evil little alignment dimple things that get in the way of properly mounting the pump if it's the wrong one (or at least it did when I blew up the pump in a '97 SC1 and put in a SC2 pump, had to go back for the bracket).

Haven't heard of the fuel line connection being different before, though I know some '02 DOHC's have a different brand/style injector and take a different electrical connector. If there's more than 1 fuel line on either engine then it's not a '98+ motor. If you still have both bodies the easiest way should be to swap the line straight off the filter/regulator.
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Old 12-30-2018, 08:35 PM   #30
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

Progress Update!

The engine/cradle is completely in! We brought the new body over the cradle on big jacks, jacked up the cradle on small jacks and put it all in place (all the bolts, lines, hoses, and like 30+ wires/connectors lol). I had to change several connectors that were different, and leave the evo steering connector off of course, and we actually changed the entire fuel line all the way back to the fuel pump because they were different lengths and had different ends and whatnot.

Finally, I started the car, and it does start! However, it does not stay running, runs for maybe 10 or so seconds and shuts off. I do think there is a security problem as has been discussed in this thread and others. Usually when I start a Saturn (I have now had four or five of them lol) the security light comes on for a few seconds and then shuts off, but in this case it comes on and blinks non stop, which seems like a problem. I did try with the computer from the SC1 and the BCM from the SC2, and then again with the computer from the SC1 and the BCM from the SC1 and neither way was successful. Any input or help with what to do would be appreciated... should I try to get it reprogrammed? Is there a way to do it myself? Can I just somehow disconnect the security module altogether? I read some stuff about leaving it on for like 10 minutes and that then the BCM and ECM will somehow sync up and it will start... maybe that? Help is appreciated!

I have a few other things still to fix- the throttle cable is a different length on the two cars so I have to change that completely, and the shifter cable was messed up on the new car so I need to change that too unfortunately, and then of course I have to bleed the breaks, but I think that's it before a test drive! Major progress has been made!
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Old 12-30-2018, 09:48 PM   #31
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

I found this post which may help you with your problem:

See post #1 and #9 in this thread:http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=181809

Sounds like they are having the same problem as you.

Last edited by SSarge; 12-30-2018 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 12-30-2018, 10:34 PM   #32
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaturnGirl02 View Post
Progress Update!

The engine/cradle is completely in! We brought the new body over the cradle on big jacks, jacked up the cradle on small jacks and put it all in place (all the bolts, lines, hoses, and like 30+ wires/connectors lol). I had to change several connectors that were different, and leave the evo steering connector off of course, and we actually changed the entire fuel line all the way back to the fuel pump because they were different lengths and had different ends and whatnot.

Finally, I started the car, and it does start! However, it does not stay running, runs for maybe 10 or so seconds and shuts off. I do think there is a security problem as has been discussed in this thread and others. Usually when I start a Saturn (I have now had four or five of them lol) the security light comes on for a few seconds and then shuts off, but in this case it comes on and blinks non stop, which seems like a problem. I did try with the computer from the SC1 and the BCM from the SC2, and then again with the computer from the SC1 and the BCM from the SC1 and neither way was successful. Any input or help with what to do would be appreciated... should I try to get it reprogrammed? Is there a way to do it myself? Can I just somehow disconnect the security module altogether? I read some stuff about leaving it on for like 10 minutes and that then the BCM and ECM will somehow sync up and it will start... maybe that? Help is appreciated!

I have a few other things still to fix- the throttle cable is a different length on the two cars so I have to change that completely, and the shifter cable was messed up on the new car so I need to change that too unfortunately, and then of course I have to bleed the breaks, but I think that's it before a test drive! Major progress has been made!
You would be correct. The SC1 PCM is coded to the SC1, and the SC2 BCM is coded differently.

A flashing security light is indicative that the BCM/PCM communication failed the check process.

As I previously stated, that SC1 PCM will need to be reprogrammed by a GM dealership or a reputable mechanic that has a GM Tech-II scan tool and the software to update the PCM.

There are three parts to the Pass-Lock II system:
Ignition Switch
Body Control Module
Powertrain Control Module

All three are programmed with the same coding, when they leave the factory.

Changing ANY of these components requires the reprogram of either the replaced component or the BCM. It depends on which one is replaced.

I have sold used OBD-II PCMs, from the wrecking yards. Since automakers have been using their own security systems with the BCMs, most PCM interchange information will recommend this procedure, before we sell the PCM to a customer.
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Old 12-30-2018, 11:02 PM   #33
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

If you need additional help, or would like to join a reasonable community of S-Series owners on FB, here is link to their page.

A few of the SaturnFans members are also within the community, and we have some guys that have done extensive custom work, and a few entrepreneurs that make nostalgic Saturn items as well.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/685328...02&ref=m_notif
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Old 12-31-2018, 08:34 AM   #34
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn Night View Post
You would be correct. The SC1 PCM is coded to the SC1, and the SC2 BCM is coded differently.

A flashing security light is indicative that the BCM/PCM communication failed the check process.

As I previously stated, that SC1 PCM will need to be reprogrammed by a GM dealership or a reputable mechanic that has a GM Tech-II scan tool and the software to update the PCM.

There are three parts to the Pass-Lock II system:
Ignition Switch
Body Control Module
Powertrain Control Module

All three are programmed with the same coding, when they leave the factory.

Changing ANY of these components requires the reprogram of either the replaced component or the BCM. It depends on which one is replaced.

I have sold used OBD-II PCMs, from the wrecking yards. Since automakers have been using their own security systems with the BCMs, most PCM interchange information will recommend this procedure, before we sell the PCM to a customer.
You can only change 1 of the 3 components, BCM, PCM, Passlock module at a time, followed by a marriage ceremony (security reset). Try changing 2 and it may lock up completely requiring a tow to the dealer or fail the relearn. The PCM has the engine and trans controller in it so it MUST match the trans and you can get away with a SOHC/DOHC engine mismatch. The BCM is married to the PCM and passlock.
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Old 12-31-2018, 10:43 AM   #35
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn Night View Post
You would be correct. The SC1 PCM is coded to the SC1, and the SC2 BCM is coded differently.

A flashing security light is indicative that the BCM/PCM communication failed the check process.

As I previously stated, that SC1 PCM will need to be reprogrammed by a GM dealership or a reputable mechanic that has a GM Tech-II scan tool and the software to update the PCM.

There are three parts to the Pass-Lock II system:
Ignition Switch
Body Control Module
Powertrain Control Module

All three are programmed with the same coding, when they leave the factory.

Changing ANY of these components requires the reprogram of either the replaced component or the BCM. It depends on which one is replaced.

I have sold used OBD-II PCMs, from the wrecking yards. Since automakers have been using their own security systems with the BCMs, most PCM interchange information will recommend this procedure, before we sell the PCM to a customer.
So even though I brought the powertrain control module and the body control module both from the same car along with the cradle, it will not work because of the ignition switch? Should I change that as well? I have changed ignitions in Saturns before and am not familiar with a part of the ignition that affects the ecm/bcm, is it part of the ignition where the key goes or somewhere else?
Thank you very much again for all of your help!
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Old 12-31-2018, 10:48 AM   #36
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

You have to change the housing to change the passlock module. The easy fix is to run the complete security relearn procedure.
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Old 12-31-2018, 10:54 AM   #37
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

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You have to change the housing to change the passlock module. The easy fix is to run the complete security relearn procedure.
Thank you for your help! I'm still confused lol...

Which housing? I am not sure where the passlock module is.

What is the security relearn procedure?

I'm pretty good with the nuts and bolts but when it comes to wires and computers and security I'm at a loss lol
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Old 12-31-2018, 11:44 AM   #38
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

It might be too late to do anything without a Tech II equivalent tool but:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Passlock module
To get out the old Passlock sensor from the housing:
1. Remove lock cylinder from housing.
2. Pry off metal cover plate.
3. File edges around where the cover plate was to facilitate Passlock sensor removal. The housing was deformed to keep the cover plate in place.
4. From the lock cylinder hole, push up on the Passlock sensor to remove it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by relearn procedure
Passlock relearn proceedure.
USE A WATCH! DO NOT GUESS THE TIME INTERVALS FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY


This is done using the security light on the dash.

To begin: key into cyl, rotate key to start engine but only give it a quick bump over, release key to run position, security light should be on.

Leave it sit for ten minutes the light should change EG: go out,

Turn the key to off and repeat the proceedure again,
Wait ten minutes, light should go out again,

Turn the key to off ,

Repeat for the third time.

At the end of the third time, key off FIRST, and then try to start car.

Should start, and every time after that (first try)
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Old 12-31-2018, 02:00 PM   #39
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

Progress Update!

The car starts and runs!! : So, after reading a bunch of random information on the internet, much of it on this forum, I decided to try some things before looking into getting the pcm reprogrammed. What worked in the end was, with the SC1's pcm and bcm, I turned the key to the run position, left it for 10 minutes while the security light blinked, and when the light shut off (which was almost exactly at the ten minute mark), I turned the key off, and did it again. I did it three times, and after shutting it off on the third time, I tried to start the car. The security light did not blink at all and the car immediately started, stayed running without a problem and has started multiple times.

Other random notes: The car shows the low miles from the SC1 engine, I assume because both the pcm and the bcm are in the new body. The SC1 that all of this came from had no features at all (crank windows, no running lights, no electric locks, nothing.) All of those things now work on the SC2 body even though I am using the pcm and bcm from the other car, as does the sunroof. I am assuming the cruise control will not but haven't tried it since I cannot yet attempt to drive the car, but we'll see. Every single wire and connector matches up on both cars, the colors of the wires match and everything, with a few exceptions that had to be modified and the one to the power steering left off (just in case anyone reads this thread with the intention of doing a swap themselves and wants to know!).

Thank you all again for your help and input. I still have to change the throttle cable (they are two different lengths), the shifter cable, bleed the brakes, and fix the exhaust or have a new one made (mine was destroyed in the accident and the SC2 does not match what comes off the cradle of the SC1). I will post again when everything is complete and the car is driving!

Happy New Year too all!
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Old 12-31-2018, 02:02 PM   #40
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Default Re: Engine Swap Advice (2002-2001 SC2-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
It might be too late to do anything without a Tech II equivalent tool but:
Thank you! I did this almost exactly! I did everything except bump it over, I didn't do that at all, and it worked perfectly! The car starts and runs and the security light just comes on for a second like normal and goes off, no blinking or other strange behavior.
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