SaturnFans.com
saturnfans.com - classifieds - forums - webmail


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-03-2018, 02:07 PM   #21
toggenburg
Master Member
toggenburg has much to be proud oftoggenburg has much to be proud oftoggenburg has much to be proud oftoggenburg has much to be proud oftoggenburg has much to be proud oftoggenburg has much to be proud oftoggenburg has much to be proud oftoggenburg has much to be proud oftoggenburg has much to be proud of
 
toggenburg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains of Bedford, Virginia. Born once? Die twice. ------ Born twice? Die once.
Posts: 3,293

2001 SL1
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

^^ I'd have to agree.
Especially to compare warming up and stretching before doing deep exercise....it is obvious that equipment does not need to do stretching and limbering up stuff....like the human body always does.

I once got 42 on a 6 hour straight drive (around 70 mph) on cruise control up to Philly area. I had the 98 SW2 automatic.
Only happened that once....usually was 38, then over the years 34-36 max mpg, and OH, I have never warmed up any car before driving off. (got drivers license in 1965).
toggenburg is online now   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 06-03-2018, 03:55 PM   #22
Saturn Night
Master Member
Saturn Night is just really niceSaturn Night is just really niceSaturn Night is just really niceSaturn Night is just really nice
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Leavittsburg, OH
Posts: 3,389

1995 SC2
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

Quote:
Originally Posted by Signmaster View Post
You don't science much do you?

Using actual data 0 MPG is always < any MPG greater than 0.
Every. Single. Time.


Your actual MPG is a result of any and all mods you've done (which all claim MPG increases), your drive cycle and type, the fuel you use, the overall health and condition of the car, and many small factors too various to list. You're far from the first S Series owner to get good MPG with the DOHC and an automatic.

There are loads of peer reviewed papers that show how temps of both coolant and oil impact MPG. I could easily link some with a single search. But I'm guessing (and willing to make a signature line bet) that you can't find a single one that uses properly acquired data, subjected to peer review, that will ever prove a car not moving is giving a better MPG return than one in motion.


Your exercise comparison is just as flawed. Wasted energy is wasted energy. If you warmed up at a low intensity, you would produce more overall power with the same energy consumption if you were actually moving the machine and producing power vs warming up with no machine motion.
Apparantly you don't understand thermodynamics and physics.

0 MPG is 0 MPG, yes. This is a TRUE statement. I never stated it was false. I stated that there is an underlying issue of increased engine degradation, when not allowing proper oil flow through a cold engine, at first startup.

Apparently, you have never performed camshaft or engine break-in, so you may want to leave the topic to those of us that have.

Sure, driving the car immediately will warm the oil up, and why is that?

What causes the heat to transfer to the oil? It isn't the fuel. That stays contained in the cylinder, away from the oil. The heat energy is dissipated from the fuel, by the cooling system.


The heat, that transmits to the OIL is from FRICTION of metal-to-metal contact points. This is also why engine oil and transmission fluid will be around 250F, despite the cooling maintaining the engine temperature at or around 190-195F. If there were no wear and no friction(MECHANICAL LOSSES, as they are called), then the oil would stay around 195F, because it would merely absorb the heat of the surfaces it is touching and not be above temperature of any other surface it comes into contact with.

Hate to say it, but if every internal surface is 195F, inside the engine, then the oil can not achieve a temperature of 250+F. There has to be heat energy from somewhere, to do this.

So, if the oil is heating up quicker, that means friction inside the engine has increased, and combining that with cold, thick oil that doesn't flow very well is very BAD physics all the way around.
...
"What does a Saturn owner do, at the gas station?"

"He checks the gas, and fills the oil....."
Saturn Night is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 04:53 PM   #23
bumpdraft
Master Member
bumpdraft is just really nicebumpdraft is just really nicebumpdraft is just really nicebumpdraft is just really nice
 
bumpdraft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,101
 

1998 SC2
1998 SW2
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

The need to warm up before driving depends on the time of day.
Where I live, the main road is 45 mph speed limit. If Im making a left turn onto it, there is a blind hill. Depending on the time of day, the redneck cresting that hill can be going anywhere from 40 to 65 mph. Ive had attacking rednecks come at me where I hit 65 mph before they started backing off I certainly wouldnt want to redline 3rd without a little warm-up time.
...
Competition Clutch 10Lb. Flywheel. 14 stalls to date (and loving it).
Oil use is 1 ounce per 100 miles with ~230,000 miles on the engine
bumpdraft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 04:59 PM   #24
Signmaster
Master Member
Signmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to behold
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 6,227
 

1995 SL1
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn Night View Post
Apparantly you don't understand thermodynamics and physics.

0 MPG is 0 MPG, yes. This is a TRUE statement. I never stated it was false. I stated that there is an underlying issue of increased engine degradation, when not allowing proper oil flow through a cold engine, at first startup.

Apparently, you have never performed camshaft or engine break-in, so you may want to leave the topic to those of us that have.
Camshaft or engine break in? Only since the 1970's and only on both small and big block Fords and Chevys, high revving and high strung bike engines, on and off road as well as marine use, and a few blower applications. As for thermodynamics and physics, I only keep track of the most efficient modern day engines and have for years, mostly for the technology developed that filters down to road cars.

Yet despite having been hands on for many years and many engines, I rely on those with a much larger range of experience at higher levels for much information. For the very reason that those at that level most often have the cutting edge testing and studies at the root of their design and builds. Those with huge amounts of data streaming off their cars can easily prove or disprove what most of us are left simply speculating about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn Night View Post
Sure, driving the car immediately will warm the oil up, and why is that?

What causes the heat to transfer to the oil? It isn't the fuel. That stays contained in the cylinder, away from the oil. The heat energy is dissipated from the fuel, by the cooling system.


The heat, that transmits to the OIL is from FRICTION of metal-to-metal contact points. This is also why engine oil and transmission fluid will be around 250F, despite the cooling maintaining the engine temperature at or around 190-195F. If there were no wear and no friction(MECHANICAL LOSSES, as they are called), then the oil would stay around 195F, because it would merely absorb the heat of the surfaces it is touching and not be above temperature of any other surface it comes into contact with.

Hate to say it, but if every internal surface is 195F, inside the engine, then the oil can not achieve a temperature of 250+F. There has to be heat energy from somewhere, to do this.

So, if the oil is heating up quicker, that means friction inside the engine has increased, and combining that with cold, thick oil that doesn't flow very well is very BAD physics all the way around.
The oil is heated by friction due to the characteristics of the oil and viscosity being less favorable at lower oil temps. Idling around simply increases the time that this takes place, and amplifies the frictional losses through the slow warm up period. Study after study shows no improvement in efficiency due to the increased friction that only exists due to lack of revs.


You can bold statements all you want, but science and facts fall on the peer reviewed studies of the research. Frictional losses due to lubrication have been tested in isolation of other engine temps, and the trend still holds true.





















But then again, if you had any faith in your claims, that signature bet would probably already be accepted. My evidence is backed by science, and a single easy search away.
...
Alordofchaos is worthy and hides in shadows only to hone his S Series knowledge ninja skills. Swift, silent, trustworthy.
Signmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 05:04 PM   #25
Signmaster
Master Member
Signmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to behold
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 6,227
 

1995 SL1
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpdraft View Post
The need to warm up before driving depends on the time of day.
Where I live, the main road is 45 mph speed limit. If Im making a left turn onto it, there is a blind hill. Depending on the time of day, the redneck cresting that hill can be going anywhere from 40 to 65 mph. Ive had attacking rednecks come at me where I hit 65 mph before they started backing off I certainly wouldnt want to redline 3rd without a little warm-up time.
I tend to do the same and keep revs reasonable until the coolant gets up in the 175-180 range. But in reality more for the tranny/diff fluids and heat soak of the coolant/block more than anything else.

With the '95 gauge sweep I can easily watch large gauge sweeps with any high load application during warm up. The coolant swing is just slightly slower with more revs and less load applied, but oil temps will come up quicker.
...
Alordofchaos is worthy and hides in shadows only to hone his S Series knowledge ninja skills. Swift, silent, trustworthy.
Signmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 07:15 PM   #26
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 43,870
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

The last time I checked where engine heat comes from.............. the combustion occurring in the fuel/air mixture. The heat from combustion can be as high as 4500F/2500C. Some of this combustion heat (energy) is transferred into mechanical motion thru the crankshaft. The rest of this combustion heat transfers to the spark plug nose into the cylinder head and onto each cylinder wall. Cylinder walls and heads are bathed in coolant. The remaining heat is absorbed into engine oil from pumped and splash lubrication. Frictional heat from metal to metal contact is insignificant because engine oil surrounds moving parts to create a thin layer of oil film to reduce/eliminate any heat generated. Motor oil is the other coolant to remove waste energy. What isn't absorbed from the heat of combustion is expelled out the exhaust system.

Coolant, oil, engine parts and exhaust remove waste heat that isn't used to turn the crankshaft. Years ago, thermal efficiency was calculated to around 15%. Now it's between 25%-50%. At 50%, an internal combustion engine still wastes 50% of its energy as heat - absorbed into coolant, oil and expelled as exhaust. And the engine/xmission gets hot too.

Last edited by fdryer; 06-03-2018 at 07:24 PM.
fdryer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2018, 10:55 AM   #27
alordofchaos
Super Member
alordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud of
 
alordofchaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central MI
Posts: 12,911
 

2002 SC2
1998 SL2
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
The last time I checked where engine heat comes from.............. the combustion occurring in the fuel/air mixture.
the good news is, physics hasn't changed all that much in the last few decades.

Well, at least in regards to ICE; our understanding of astro- and subatomic physics have undergone some changes in the past few decades
I was very disappointed that the Bussard ramjets of my childhood are extremely unlikely to become a reality.

Nobody breaks the laws of thermodynamics and gets away with it! At best, you can find a loophole
...
I'm not worthy to grovel in the shadow of Signmaster's wisdom

11/2016 red 2002 5 spd SC2 151k DD
7/2010 Craigslist white 1997 SC2 project
12/2008 eBay silver 1998 SL2 5 spd 102k, now 201k+ miles
alordofchaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2018, 11:45 AM   #28
Saturn Night
Master Member
Saturn Night is just really niceSaturn Night is just really niceSaturn Night is just really niceSaturn Night is just really nice
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Leavittsburg, OH
Posts: 3,389

1995 SC2
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

Quote:
Originally Posted by Signmaster View Post
Camshaft or engine break in? Only since the 1970's and only on both small and big block Fords and Chevys, high revving and high strung bike engines, on and off road as well as marine use, and a few blower applications. As for thermodynamics and physics, I only keep track of the most efficient modern day engines and have for years, mostly for the technology developed that filters down to road cars.

Yet despite having been hands on for many years and many engines, I rely on those with a much larger range of experience at higher levels for much information. For the very reason that those at that level most often have the cutting edge testing and studies at the root of their design and builds. Those with huge amounts of data streaming off their cars can easily prove or disprove what most of us are left simply speculating about.




The oil is heated by friction due to the characteristics of the oil and viscosity being less favorable at lower oil temps. Idling around simply increases the time that this takes place, and amplifies the frictional losses through the slow warm up period. Study after study shows no improvement in efficiency due to the increased friction that only exists due to lack of revs.


You can bold statements all you want, but science and facts fall on the peer reviewed studies of the research. Frictional losses due to lubrication have been tested in isolation of other engine temps, and the trend still holds true.





















But then again, if you had any faith in your claims, that signature bet would probably already be accepted. My evidence is backed by science, and a single easy search away.
https://abcnews.go.com/Business/comm...ry?id=21381385

As Quoted: "In extreme cold, an engine block heater can help minimize the cold's effects on the engine. But in any event, it is critical to allow an engine to warm up before driving. This allows the oil to thin out enough to flow freely through the engine. Engine block heaters vary in type and cost. The cost of parts and installation for a frost plug heater start at about $175."

Show me empirical evidence that there is no increased wear inside the engine, by driving it as soon as you start it up.

Like I said, my family will graciously and fairly price you for used replacement engines all day long.

May as well believe the hype that you can drive for 10,000-miles without changing the oil, too....

Keeps food on the table for us....

Go to work in factories and even heavy equipment being started back up after any lengthy shutdown periods will need "Warm-up" time. A car engine is no different.
...
"What does a Saturn owner do, at the gas station?"

"He checks the gas, and fills the oil....."
Saturn Night is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2018, 11:57 AM   #29
Saturn Night
Master Member
Saturn Night is just really niceSaturn Night is just really niceSaturn Night is just really niceSaturn Night is just really nice
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Leavittsburg, OH
Posts: 3,389

1995 SC2
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/5-sym...-deposits4.htm

As Quoted: "Oil absorbs the heat from all that whirring, rotating and thrashing about that takes place in the engine. As the oil circulates back to the oil pan, it cools off so that it can repeat the circuit and remove more heat. The oil has to be at the right consistency to do this. If it's too thin or if it's thick and sludgy, it'll be inadequate to properly cool the engine for long."

As we can see the heat energy of the COMBUSTION process has no bearing on engine oil temperature, thus confirming what I previously stated.

The heat energy from the combustion process is controlled by the cooling system. This would likely be why the cylinders are surrounded by engine coolant, instead of engine oil.

This article was put together with information from ExxonMobil, and a few other sources of info.

But, I will challenge you on your next engine swap project. Install the engine bone dry and fill it with oil, especially with the DOHCs of today. As soon as it has idled(with all that lifter tapping that will occur) has idled for 30 seconds, IMMEDIATELY begin driving the car around to get more oil up to that set of camshafts and lifters in the top of the engine. Make a video to document what happens to that engine, when you do.
...
"What does a Saturn owner do, at the gas station?"

"He checks the gas, and fills the oil....."
Saturn Night is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2018, 12:05 PM   #30
Saturn Night
Master Member
Saturn Night is just really niceSaturn Night is just really niceSaturn Night is just really niceSaturn Night is just really nice
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Leavittsburg, OH
Posts: 3,389

1995 SC2
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml
...
"What does a Saturn owner do, at the gas station?"

"He checks the gas, and fills the oil....."
Saturn Night is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2018, 02:27 PM   #31
alordofchaos
Super Member
alordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud of
 
alordofchaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central MI
Posts: 12,911
 

2002 SC2
1998 SL2
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn Night View Post
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/5-sym...-deposits4.htm

As Quoted: "Oil absorbs the heat from all that whirring, rotating and thrashing about that takes place in the engine. As the oil circulates back to the oil pan, it cools off so that it can repeat the circuit and remove more heat. The oil has to be at the right consistency to do this. If it's too thin or if it's thick and sludgy, it'll be inadequate to properly cool the engine for long."

As we can see the heat energy of the COMBUSTION process has no bearing on engine oil temperature, thus confirming what I previously stated.
Ok, that's just wrong.

The oil is not taking most of the heat from friction of the parts, it is the "whirring, rotating and thrashing about" that places oil on the hot metal surfaces of the engine - heated by the combustion process - where the oil absorbs heat from the surfaces. Second law of thermodynamics.

Quote:
The heat energy from the combustion process is controlled by the cooling system.
And yet, the very first line on the page you linked says, "One of the main jobs of engine oil is to transfer heat away from the engine."

Quote:
This would likely be why the cylinders are surrounded by engine coolant, instead of engine oil.




Quote:
But, I will challenge you on your next engine swap project. Install the engine bone dry and fill it with oil, especially with the DOHCs of today.
That's a lubrication issue, not a heat issue.

Quote:
As Quoted: "In extreme cold, an engine block heater can help minimize the cold's effects on the engine.
Sorry, that is a ****ty article. Did you notice this?
Quote:
Your engine coolant should be replaced every 24 to 36 months.
I've been running long-life (5/yr, 100~150k) coolants for decades, literally hundreds of thousands of miles, on many vehicles.

In any case, yes, in extreme cold, a block heater is good. But that's primarily for engine wear, not MPG which is what this conversation was about.

Quote:
But in any event, it is critical to allow an engine to warm up before driving. This allows the oil to thin out enough to flow freely through the engine.
. . . and how long does it take for a modern 5w30 oil to thin out and flow freely through the engine? How warm is warm enough? Terribly written article, sorry.

Quote:
May as well believe the hype that you can drive for 10,000-miles without changing the oil, too....
You may want to send a PM to OldNuc and tell him how his 15,000~20,000 mile oil change intervals are a bad idea. I'm sure he would appreciate the heads up.
...
I'm not worthy to grovel in the shadow of Signmaster's wisdom

11/2016 red 2002 5 spd SC2 151k DD
7/2010 Craigslist white 1997 SC2 project
12/2008 eBay silver 1998 SL2 5 spd 102k, now 201k+ miles
alordofchaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2018, 05:41 PM   #32
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 43,870
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn Night View Post
.......As Quoted: "Oil absorbs the heat from all that whirring, rotating and thrashing about that takes place in the engine. As the oil circulates back to the oil pan, it cools off so that it can repeat the circuit and remove more heat. The oil has to be at the right consistency to do this. If it's too thin or if it's thick and sludgy, it'll be inadequate to properly cool the engine for long."

As we can see the heat energy of the COMBUSTION process has no bearing on engine oil temperature, thus confirming what I previously stated.

The heat energy from the combustion process is controlled by the cooling system. This would likely be why the cylinders are surrounded by engine coolant, instead of engine oil.

This article was put together with information from ExxonMobil, and a few other sources of info.......
Let's see, your first (in bold) comment contradicts your second (in bold) comment. I can recall high school classes discussing two/four stroke cycles and how radial engines are configured. Throw in calculations for bmep, calculus equations for lift and other formulas in aerodynamics along with machine shop, foundry and (old school) mechanical drawing. Somewhere in those classes was how much a gallon of gasoline outputs in BTUs (123k/gal?).

According to you, heat doesn't exist. Perhaps reviewing your knowledge base and further research may change your mind. I'm sure F1 has info on how their engines remove heat and where it comes from. They make custom oil coolers to remove an excessive amount of heat. You might consider why F1 engines need oil coolers. Maybe turbocharging and 800 hp from 1.6 liters.......Heat comes from somewhere. Or reconsidering how you interpret every four stroke internal combustion engine. The term internal combustion engine may give a strong hint where heat originates.......burning fossil fuel.

Oh, I forgot to mention that air cooled aircraft engines back in the day used tremendous amounts of oil. Not consumed but in capacity. While the cylinders were finned to increase the cylinder head surface area to allow airflow removal of heat, the large capacity oil reserves were pumped in and out of dry sump engines to remove heat.....when most air cooled engines didn't have liquid cooling systems. Very old old mechanical engineers somehow knew about combustion energy lost as heat and to prevent engines from melting devised efficient oil coolers to remove excess heat. Anyone tried imagining an 18 cylinder air cooled radial engine, 3347 cubic inches, 2200 hp with a dry sump and how it's cooled? Air alone doesn't cut it.
fdryer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2018, 08:03 PM   #33
Waiex191
Master Member
Waiex191 is just really niceWaiex191 is just really niceWaiex191 is just really niceWaiex191 is just really nice
 
Waiex191's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Poplar Grove, IL
Posts: 2,472

1999 SL2
1998 SC2
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

Quote:
Anyone tried imagining an 18 cylinder air cooled radial engine, 3347 cubic inches, 2200 hp with a dry sump and how it's cooled? Air alone doesn't cut it.
Or, a Super Cub with a flat 4 engine, 320 cubic inches, and an oil cooler. Even the olde J3 with 171 cubic​ inches had a sump design that stood off from the engine and provided a lot of surface area.
...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018
Waiex191 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2018, 07:13 AM   #34
Saturn Night
Master Member
Saturn Night is just really niceSaturn Night is just really niceSaturn Night is just really niceSaturn Night is just really nice
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Leavittsburg, OH
Posts: 3,389

1995 SC2
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

Can any of you prove that skipping the "warm-up" time, does NOT cause excessive or increased wear inside the engine?

This entire debate started, as I stated that not warming the engine up will increase the wear inside the engine. And considering that my fuel economy rivals that of SOHC owners, we can clearly see that warm-up time does not affect fuel economy as badly as the eco-nazi crowds would like everyone to believe.

Until this can be proven, my statement is held as valid that driving the engine when it is cold increases wear inside the engine.

I believe it was Joseph Goebbels, that was quoted as saying: "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."
...
"What does a Saturn owner do, at the gas station?"

"He checks the gas, and fills the oil....."
Saturn Night is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2018, 07:55 AM   #35
Signmaster
Master Member
Signmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to behold
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 6,227
 

1995 SL1
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn Night View Post
https://abcnews.go.com/Business/comm...ry?id=21381385

As Quoted: "In extreme cold, an engine block heater can help minimize the cold's effects on the engine. But in any event, it is critical to allow an engine to warm up before driving. This allows the oil to thin out enough to flow freely through the engine. Engine block heaters vary in type and cost. The cost of parts and installation for a frost plug heater start at about $175."

Show me empirical evidence that there is no increased wear inside the engine, by driving it as soon as you start it up.

Like I said, my family will graciously and fairly price you for used replacement engines all day long.

May as well believe the hype that you can drive for 10,000-miles without changing the oil, too....

Keeps food on the table for us....

Go to work in factories and even heavy equipment being started back up after any lengthy shutdown periods will need "Warm-up" time. A car engine is no different.

I really don't know which is more comical. The fact that you keep changing angles in hopes you will somehow prove that you are correct about something, or the fact that you link a source being a journalist at ABC news as some type of authority on the matters.


There is increased wear in an engine any time the lubrication viscosity is not optimal for the engine. Even with modern day oils, it's a big compromise. The viscosity is less than optimal the entire time the oil is coming up to temp, and might be less than optimal once up to temp if loads and revs are increased a lot. The only way to find a really optimal oil would be if the engine ran in a steady state with fixed revs, load, cooling, etc. But we are driving cars, not pumping engines or generators, so there is lubricant compromise involved every time.

As I've already stated, testing has been done even with preheated coolant, and losses due to oil viscosity are still high. Short of preheating and circulating both to heat soak the entire system, there is something operating in a less than optimal range.


But that inefficiency that causes wear takes place whether the car is moving or not. 0 MPG is 0 MPG. Moving forward is greater than 0 MPG, and will always win in regards to fuel efficiency. It really is that simple.









If the OP is still reading, apologies for the extended thread hijacking. There is a reason for your MPG increase, and many have posted possibilities. But I think some of us feel obligated to kill some of the myths being tossed out.
...
Alordofchaos is worthy and hides in shadows only to hone his S Series knowledge ninja skills. Swift, silent, trustworthy.
Signmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2018, 09:46 AM   #36
alordofchaos
Super Member
alordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud of
 
alordofchaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central MI
Posts: 12,911
 

2002 SC2
1998 SL2
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn Night
Consumer Report has erroneously recommended driving you car as soon as it is started up, as a way to improve gas mileage, over the years.
The question wasn't about wear, it's whether CR "erroneously" reported this "as a way to improve gas mileage"

Quote:
Can any of you prove that skipping the "warm-up" time, does NOT cause excessive or increased wear inside the engine?
Which one is it, excessive or increased? Those are two different things.

I've undoubtedly had some "increased" wear by not "warming up" to 113F, but it was certainly not "excessive" since every single one of the 30+ cars I've owned had solid engines when I sold/traded them.

My guess, the increased wear was not measurable. Not that I ever tried to measure, as there is generally no point in tearing down a good engine.
...
I'm not worthy to grovel in the shadow of Signmaster's wisdom

11/2016 red 2002 5 spd SC2 151k DD
7/2010 Craigslist white 1997 SC2 project
12/2008 eBay silver 1998 SL2 5 spd 102k, now 201k+ miles
alordofchaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2018, 01:14 PM   #37
TXSaturn02
Master Member
TXSaturn02 has a spectacular aura aboutTXSaturn02 has a spectacular aura aboutTXSaturn02 has a spectacular aura about
 
TXSaturn02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,088
 

2002 SL2
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

Meanwhile, the guy who initially released the smoke bomb, hasn't been seen since.

If I had gotten such a dramatic increase/decrease in MPG, I would KNOW why.

I've recently taken a roughly 3 MPG hit - new tires obviously have higher rolling resistance than the originals.
...
2002 SL2 Manual - new in November, 2001
As of 09/30/17: 223,751 Miles - SOLD
New owner report of 08/08/19: 234,408 Miles

2013 Mazda 3 HB - new in October 2012
As of 07/25/18: 51,495 Miles
TXSaturn02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2018, 01:31 PM   #38
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 43,870
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

ExNorth, the op, made two comments and has since left the room....... Oh no!? Not another deep Russian mole/troll invading the sanctity of Saturnfans?!
fdryer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2018, 01:39 PM   #39
alordofchaos
Super Member
alordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud of
 
alordofchaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central MI
Posts: 12,911
 

2002 SC2
1998 SL2
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

OP is smarter than the rest of us, saw where this thread was going . . . and wanted no part of it

Speaking of which, what is the best oil . . .

...
I'm not worthy to grovel in the shadow of Signmaster's wisdom

11/2016 red 2002 5 spd SC2 151k DD
7/2010 Craigslist white 1997 SC2 project
12/2008 eBay silver 1998 SL2 5 spd 102k, now 201k+ miles
alordofchaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2018, 07:43 AM   #40
onlinebiker
Senior Member
onlinebiker is a glorious beacon of lightonlinebiker is a glorious beacon of lightonlinebiker is a glorious beacon of lightonlinebiker is a glorious beacon of lightonlinebiker is a glorious beacon of lightonlinebiker is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: sw michigan
Posts: 1,088
Default Re: Gas Mileage has Suddenly Improved

Ever listen to NPR's " Car Talk"??

Tom Magliozzi told a story about a guy he had worked with that bought a Fiat, and was bragging about the gas mileage. So the guys decided they needed to mess with the guys head. So, each week they added some gasoline to the guy' s tank in ever increasing amounts. The guy was elated and kept close track of his milage - and bragging about it incessantly. 27, 29, 30, 35, 40 mpg. WOW!!!

After 6 months or so, they switched direction - and added less and less each week till they weren' t adding any. The guy was pulling his hair out - and complaining to the dealership about the drop in mileage. Then they started siphoning gas out of his tank.......


.....


Got any friends that love a good prank, and have the patience to stick with it and keep a straight face??


...
92 SC2
93 SC2
96 SC2
97 SL2
97 SC2
99 SC2
01 SC2 x 2 yellow
02 SC2
02 SL2
parts
2 94 SC2 parted out
2 96 SC2
98 SC2 - rusty frame minus engine.
onlinebiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Improved Gas Mileage...Wow! Norseman S-Series Tech 22 06-15-2012 01:22 AM
improved Vue AC chuck mcmullen Vue General 10 06-16-2008 08:39 PM
Slightly improved gas mileage - '06 AWD V6 Web Raven Vue General 8 03-20-2006 08:56 AM
Shocks...Improved damping for improved ride ? kencat Vue General 4 11-10-2003 03:11 PM
new and improved saturnracing.com Patrick_97SC2 Mods and Performance 0 08-10-2001 02:47 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:44 PM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.