SaturnFans.com
saturnfans.com - classifieds - forums - webmail


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-14-2013, 06:57 PM   #1
brags
Advanced Member
brags will become famous soon enoughbrags will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Canada,ont
Posts: 957

1996 SL1
Wrench Quick Lube Shops..?

anyone here take there car to a Quick Lube shop Lately.?

today i noticed a small pudle of oil on my nabours driveway this is after
it was parked and sat for some time in his driveway, he pulled it in his
garage i happened to be outside and noticed the oil pudle, told him and he looked

pissed.! told me he just got the oil changed at the quick lube place, i had
to help him check his own oil. since he didnt quite no how-to :dizzyi i checked it and it was down a little bit, but nothing serious still with-in the safe
Level, i told him to go back to the quick Lube place and have them Look at what they did.? i have told this guy before Learn to do it yourself there are how-to videos all over the internet this is a guy that never opens his hood

for anything guess he will have to Learn the hard way. is this common where
You live...?
...
" Any man that doesen"t share his knowledge in cars is wrong to do !"
brags is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 02-14-2013, 09:47 PM   #2
anmasher
Senior Member
anmasher has a spectacular aura aboutanmasher has a spectacular aura aboutanmasher has a spectacular aura about
 
anmasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Martinsville, IN
Posts: 1,557
 

1995 SC2
1996 SL2
Default Re: Quick Lube Shops..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brags View Post
is this common where
You live...?
Yes.

I have one neighbor that works on his cars all the time, and another (lady) that works with transmissions for a living. I have literally never seen any of the others with their hood open - ever.

Same way in highschool, one of my friends told me he was going to Walmart for an oil change. I explained the horrors of doing such a thing, then said take it to my house, I'll show you how to do it. He never could be bothered to take me up on my offer.

I get that not everybody should be able to change a head gasket on their own... but an oil change? C'mon man!
anmasher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 10:09 PM   #3
caveeagle
Senior Member
caveeagle is a glorious beacon of lightcaveeagle is a glorious beacon of lightcaveeagle is a glorious beacon of lightcaveeagle is a glorious beacon of lightcaveeagle is a glorious beacon of light
 
caveeagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: High Springs, FL
Posts: 1,840

2005 VUE 2.2L
2001 SC2
Default Re: Quick Lube Shops..?

For the first time in ~10 years, I had a Firestone change the oil in two of our cars. This was just a couple days before our big move from Florida to Illinois and all my tools were packed up.

The next oil change in our Vue, was done by me last month. I had to get out my big mondo breaker bar to remove the drain plug.

What is it about these idiots that makes them want to torque down oil filters and drain plugs to 200# ??

There happend to be a Juffy Lube comercial on the radio lately that I find kind of funny. They wax on about how important car maintenance is to prevent break downs and how their staff is "Highly Trained" to do such important services like oil changes and tire rotations. Give me a break! How longs does it really take to train someone on this??

And.... Is there an ASE certification for auto-lube stooge?
caveeagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 11:35 PM   #4
brags
Advanced Member
brags will become famous soon enoughbrags will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Canada,ont
Posts: 957

1996 SL1
Default Re: Quick Lube Shops..?

Not trying to knock all Quick Lube places down - But it just seems
someone has had some type of damage as a result of going to them i can speak for
myself, when i was in my teens & started driving i took it to a quick Lube shop to get my oil change and seen a guy down in the oil pit spot where they work below your car anyway the guy pulls out a 4 foot bar wrench and is using it to loosen and tighten the drain oil nut on my car. so i get home check my oil Level and find its over filled by alot as upset as i was

i kept my cooll, went back and told the manager he agreed and appologized
and took some oil out, and again seen the guy down in the oil pit using
that damn Long bar on my car that was the 1st time the 2nd time
i went there they overtightened my drain plug and again overfilled my engine
that was the Last straw. never again.
...
" Any man that doesen"t share his knowledge in cars is wrong to do !"
brags is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 01:04 AM   #5
adventureoflink
Master Member
adventureoflink has a spectacular aura aboutadventureoflink has a spectacular aura aboutadventureoflink has a spectacular aura about
 
adventureoflink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: 255.255.255.255
Posts: 6,853

1997 SL2
Default Re: Quick Lube Shops..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by caveeagle View Post
What is it about these idiots that makes them want to torque down oil filters and drain plugs to 200# ??
I kinda noticed this during my short stent at Pepboys.. I ended up using the 1/2" drive ratchet and nearly ALL my strength to bust the drain plugs off, even on vehicles that use CV axles like our Saturns and therefore should ideally need a 3/8" ratchet at best... oil filter wrenches I usually use a tool to pop those off anyway (or on my cars my hands and a clean wrag) so I have no say either way. -shrugs-

Quote:
Originally Posted by caveeagle View Post
And.... Is there an ASE certification for auto-lube stooge?
Give it time, and such a cert will exist, thereby making yet another headache for new novice mechanics (such as myself) to even GET our ASEs unless we started in HIGH SCHOOL in a vocational program.. (keep in mind to get ASEs you either need two "years" of education (spending two years in the HS voc. program would count as one year and two more years or so in a technical college would be the other year), one "year" of education and one ACTUAL year (look ma no quotations ) of real work experience, or two ACTUAL years of work EXP.) which would be YET another reason why I advise anyone doing this professionally to start while you're in high school, assuming they have a vocational program...

So yeah, what happened to further your education, you can get a better job and pay? BULLSHEIST. all it's gonna do is cause heartache and thoughts of "what's the point.. ". not to mention too most college educated jobs still need certifications and in order to get them you need an actual year in the field..
...
97 SL2
DOB: 3/19/97
Date Obtained: 5/30/07
Status: Alive, 1/2 exhaust

2004 Merc G.Marquis GS
DOB: 2/4/04
Date Obtained: 7/6/12
Status: Alive, no heat
adventureoflink is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 04:47 AM   #6
el diablo viejo
Senior Member
el diablo viejo will become famous soon enough
 
el diablo viejo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 1,419

1994 SW1
2000 SW2
Default Re: Quick Lube Shops..?

We on this forum are DIYers, so by definition we do not mix well with Quick, Jiffy, Pronto or any other "Lubes". The only time I would ever consider going near one is if I knew and trusted the person in the pit, and my arm was in a sling.
...
97 sl2 a/t 104 K
1989 GMC 3500 454 129 K, 1969 442 455 rat rod
el diablo viejo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 10:03 AM   #7
brags
Advanced Member
brags will become famous soon enoughbrags will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Canada,ont
Posts: 957

1996 SL1
Default Re: Quick Lube Shops..?

there should be some form of training or certification put in place, on How-To
do an oil change AND the 29 POINT INSPECTION that all shops say they do done correctly.?
and not JUST nowing oil changes but other simple
stuff too.. in know as dumb as it sounds beleive me i worked in a shop before and the stuff
i would see was pretty shocking to say the Least,

many shops will hire young kids that have never seen the underbody
of a vehicle much Less turned a wrench ever in there Life, its pretty frightening
to watch an expensive vehicle come in for basic 29 point oil & filter change
and then have the costumer back mad cause something was wrong
all i gotta say is theres shops that care and others that dont care sadly as it sounds its true.
...
" Any man that doesen"t share his knowledge in cars is wrong to do !"
brags is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 12:39 PM   #8
DonP
Master Member
DonP will become famous soon enoughDonP will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 3,582
 

1995 SL2
Default Re: Quick Lube Shops..?

The quick lube places tend to have the lower paid, less experienced mechanics. They are mass market outlets designed around a rapid turn-around and probably a high employee turnover. One cannot expect the same professional level as you might find elsewhere.

Over the past 20 years two neighbors had engine failure as a result of oil change mistakes. One a loose drain plug and the other installation of the wrong filter. There is no substitute for informed operator awareness of the state of the car's systems.

It is a bit uncommon to find a third party who will take the same care an owner will when doing maintenance/repair work. Especially at low bargain prices. If you find a good mechanic who loves their work and cares for their customers, hang on to him/her.

Certification means the mechanic likely knows how to do it right (a step in the right direction) but does not mean that they will do it right.

(BTW, the drain plug gasket is one likely source of the leak mentioned above.)

Last edited by DonP; 02-15-2013 at 12:45 PM.
DonP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 01:28 PM   #9
Sweepspear
Member
Sweepspear is on a distinguished road
 
Sweepspear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 131

2008 VUE 3.6L
Default Re: Quick Lube Shops..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by caveeagle View Post
They wax on about how important car maintenance is to prevent break downs and how their staff is "Highly Trained" to do such important services like oil changes and tire rotations. Give me a break! How longs does it really take to train someone on this??

And.... Is there an ASE certification for auto-lube stooge?
About 20 some odd years ago I worked a job that was a seasonal. Asphalt paving work.
During the winter I would be on lay-off and would recieve unemployment.
To supplement that, and to keep busy I got a job with a nationally known rapid oil change place. Because heck, what could be easier?

Anyway, they initially didn't want to hire me because I had some automotive background. They would rather hire someone that doesn't know what end of a screwdriver to hold and train them in their ways.
I managed to get hired, went through their training which was little more than watching some videos.
What they stressed most was selling parts and add on services such as flush and fills.

I had a real hard time with this end of it and often would refuse to sell a customer on something they didn't need.
"That F-150 is less than a year old, has less than 7500 miles on it, and you want me to sell him on a transmission & differential flush and fill?"

Another thing that bothered me and I refused to take part in was it was a routine procedure to take a utility knife and cut away any splash guards that may interfere with reaching the filter. The thought was the car will be back and will make it easier next time.
I am sure all places aren't like this, and it is not my intent to paint all with the same brush, but until I am too old, and too infirm to change oil myself, I will never take a vehicle into one of these places after what I saw first hand.
...
Dale

"Calling upon my years of experience, I froze at the controls". Stirling Moss
Sweepspear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 01:29 PM   #10
macbox
Senior Member
macbox will become famous soon enough
 
macbox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,197
 

1995 SC2
1997 SC2
Default Re: Quick Lube Shops..?

These stories are from at least nine years ago, and I've tried to do my own oil changes ever since.

I had the gas station around the corner change my oil once, and I mean once, and they had a piece of wood get between the drain plug and some of the oil leaked out and the sound of the engine changed. It was over a quart low, and when I took it to the dealer, they said it sounded fine, it still probably contributed to the premature death of that engine.

I no longer trusted the dealership after they told me an old thermostat would not lead to less heat from the heater, and that the ECTS would not be a problem. Heh. On another occasion the dealer also overtorqued the drain plug and stripped the threads, so they gave me a loaner car while they got a new oil pan from another location and installed it, so it isn't just the quick lube shops.
...
"The Twins"
#4, "Betty" 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#7 "Betsy" 1995 SC2, 131K, daily driver.
macbox is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 02:00 PM   #11
TXSaturn02
Master Member
TXSaturn02 has a spectacular aura aboutTXSaturn02 has a spectacular aura aboutTXSaturn02 has a spectacular aura about
 
TXSaturn02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,088
 

2002 SL2
Default Re: Quick Lube Shops..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweepspear View Post
Anyway, they initially didn't want to hire me because I had some automotive background. They would rather hire someone that doesn't know what end of a screwdriver to hold and train them in their ways.
I managed to get hired, went through their training which was little more than watching some videos.
What they stressed most was selling parts and add on services such as flush and fills.
Very good story. This is a by-product of capitalism. It is not just in the auto repair business. It is always buyer beware. You can make a similar case for most any product/industry. It just so happens that most people on this forum love cars more so than the average person and so these horor stories leave an impression.

I've never done my own oil change and have never had a serious problem (as far as I know). Though, I will admit that listening to the stories makes me want to do my own with my new car (could care less about the Saturn as I feel it has already gotten my money's worth from her).

Nowadays, with the internet (social media), it just become even more evident about how the average person walking down the street is so clueless and being manipulated. People gripe about how their cable company, cell phone company, etc., screwed them over and they just bend over and take it.
...
2002 SL2 Manual - new in November, 2001
As of 09/30/17: 223,751 Miles - SOLD
New owner report of 08/08/19: 234,408 Miles

2013 Mazda 3 HB - new in October 2012
As of 07/25/18: 51,495 Miles
TXSaturn02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 02:47 PM   #12
brags
Advanced Member
brags will become famous soon enoughbrags will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Canada,ont
Posts: 957

1996 SL1
Default Re: Quick Lube Shops..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by el diablo viejo View Post
We on this forum are DIYers, so by definition we do not mix well with Quick, Jiffy, Pronto or any other "Lubes". The only time I would ever consider going near one is if I knew and trusted the person in the pit, and my arm was in a sling.
L.O.L...! Same here ...
...
" Any man that doesen"t share his knowledge in cars is wrong to do !"
brags is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 01:12 AM   #13
Cruiser
Member
Cruiser is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Maryland
Posts: 81

1995 SC2
Default Re: Quick Lube Shops..?

Plenty of disdain for these places, but for me they have served their purpose.

For the first 4 or so years of my 96 sc2 I always went to the dealer for oil changes, and then ventured out to the quick lube ones as well as Walmart - and so for 12 years it hasn't been a problem.

I did my own oil changes for the first time last year, and certainly feel more control and know the job is done right and with the brands I trust, i.e. not Fram. Kinda late in the game.

I don't have a garage available, so with this cold weather here in Maryland, I just took it to Walmart for the most recent change - I like being able to shop while it gets done.

I also like that Walmart doesn't try to upsell me on flush & fills the way the quick lube places do.

While the places may not be the best - if they were all filled with criminals, incompetents and thieves they wouldn't be doing the business they do and would be shut down.
Cruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 02:54 PM   #14
S3aturnR
Master Member
S3aturnR is a jewel in the roughS3aturnR is a jewel in the roughS3aturnR is a jewel in the rough
 
S3aturnR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Oxford, Mi.
Posts: 3,545
 

1996 SL2
1999 SL1
Default Re: Quick Lube Shops..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brags View Post
anyone here take there car to a Quick Lube shop Lately.?
good god no! i'd sooner farm it out to a couple neighborhood kids.

using a quick lube shop is just ASKING for trouble. you might get away without any trouble once or twice, but sooner or later, you're gonna get a BIG surprise and it will probably involve a non-warranty engine replacement.


s3aturnr
...
"reno is a lot like maybury, except everyone's on crystal meth and prostitution's legal" - junior
S3aturnR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 06:04 PM   #15
brags
Advanced Member
brags will become famous soon enoughbrags will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Canada,ont
Posts: 957

1996 SL1
Default Re: Quick Lube Shops..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruiser View Post
Plenty of disdain for these places, but for me they have served their purpose.

For the first 4 or so years of my 96 sc2 I always went to the dealer for oil changes, and then ventured out to the quick lube ones as well as Walmart - and so for 12 years it hasn't been a problem.

I did my own oil changes for the first time last year, and certainly feel more control and know the job is done right and with the brands I trust, i.e. not Fram. Kinda late in the game.

I don't have a garage available, so with this cold weather here in Maryland, I just took it to Walmart for the most recent change - I like being able to shop while it gets done.

I also like that Walmart doesn't try to upsell me on flush & fills the way the quick lube places do.

While the places may not be the best - if they were all filled with criminals, incompetents and thieves they wouldn't be doing the business they do and would be shut down.
I have been doing my oil changes on the SL1- since i can remember,
and Yes i agree with You on that one i too. i like to have my preference in
what i like to use as far as brand of oil and filter goes. and not what some

quick lube decides for me. im pretty sure all will agree here. that if its done by themselves the task turns out to be a little cheaper and done right. along with no waiteing in line time, i rather do-it myself i get underneath mine and

inspect everything like oil Leaks or any other issue that i can see that might
become an issue in time, if there are any screw ups the Last place human hands touched would come back from Me.
wich does not happen too often.
...
" Any man that doesen"t share his knowledge in cars is wrong to do !"
brags is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 01:41 AM   #16
adventureoflink
Master Member
adventureoflink has a spectacular aura aboutadventureoflink has a spectacular aura aboutadventureoflink has a spectacular aura about
 
adventureoflink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: 255.255.255.255
Posts: 6,853

1997 SL2
Default Re: Quick Lube Shops..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweepspear View Post
What they stressed most was selling parts and add on services such as flush and fills.

I had a real hard time with this end of it and often would refuse to sell a customer on something they didn't need.
"That F-150 is less than a year old, has less than 7500 miles on it, and you want me to sell him on a transmission & differential flush and fill?"

Another thing that bothered me and I refused to take part in was it was a routine procedure to take a utility knife and cut away any splash guards that may interfere with reaching the filter. The thought was the car will be back and will make it easier next time.
I am sure all places aren't like this, and it is not my intent to paint all with the same brush, but until I am too old, and too infirm to change oil myself, I will never take a vehicle into one of these places after what I saw first hand.
This. Is why I have a hard time accepting the fact that I have to start off at a Iffy-Lube or "stay out of the zone" auto-zone .. "ohai my CEL is on" "ok we'll scan it for you" *few minutes later* <insert random spam here to try and upsell a part which may or may not even cure the problem> Because I REFUSE to do this to a customer.

However, I hate those stupid bullcrap access panels as much as the next guy, but really, destroying other peoples' property?

and agreed with brags. another reason I DIY -- more control over my parts and installation.
...
97 SL2
DOB: 3/19/97
Date Obtained: 5/30/07
Status: Alive, 1/2 exhaust

2004 Merc G.Marquis GS
DOB: 2/4/04
Date Obtained: 7/6/12
Status: Alive, no heat
adventureoflink is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 04:31 PM   #17
dummo
Master Member
dummo is a name known to alldummo is a name known to alldummo is a name known to alldummo is a name known to alldummo is a name known to alldummo is a name known to all
 
dummo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 2,669
 

1997 SW2
Default Re: Quick Lube Shops..?

1) Do you trust that the 'technician' actually changed the filter? Is his arm and sleeve black from being soaked with the hot dark oil that inevitably pours from the filter at the last second (no matter how long you wait for it to drain)?

2) If you paid for premium or synthetic oil, are you certain that you really got it?

3) These guys are too busy B.S.-ing with each other, listening to their loud angry rhythmic noise and looking at you as if you haven't a clue.

4) Would you trust your car with the fry machine operator at McDonald's?
...
1997 SW2 used 12/29/2011 with 124,200 -27 mpg
2004 Ion3 new 11/2003 (totaled) 11/2011 -23 mpg
1994 SL1 new traded
1992 SL2 new traded for above
* 1986 Yamaha ce50 Jog -100 mpg
dummo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 04:45 PM   #18
BV22
Master Member
BV22 is a glorious beacon of lightBV22 is a glorious beacon of lightBV22 is a glorious beacon of lightBV22 is a glorious beacon of lightBV22 is a glorious beacon of lightBV22 is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,166

2002 SC1
Default Re: Quick Lube Shops..?

When I was younger and lazier, I used to get my oil changed at these places, but I would always stand there in the service bay and watch the work being done. I got really tired of the upselling of useless services which I always declined, so I went back to doing oil changes in the driveway years ago.
...
BV22
2002 SC1 5M
RIP Sept 1 2018
315,344 miles
BV22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 05:38 PM   #19
alordofchaos
Super Member
alordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud ofalordofchaos has much to be proud of
 
alordofchaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central MI
Posts: 12,911
 

2002 SC2
1998 SL2
Default Re: Quick Lube Shops..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruiser View Post
I don't have a garage available, so with this cold weather here in Maryland,
I don't like working with cold tools, etc., either, so I plan my oil changes so that I do one right in late November or December, then I'm good until March or April (other than topping off the oil, of course )

Until I get too old to jack up the car, I won't take a car to a quick lube place. I have too many of my own horror stories (a Walmart oil change was the final straw, filter was on so tight it scored the mount plate on the engine block).
...
I'm not worthy to grovel in the shadow of Signmaster's wisdom

11/2016 red 2002 5 spd SC2 151k DD
7/2010 Craigslist white 1997 SC2 project
12/2008 eBay silver 1998 SL2 5 spd 102k, now 201k+ miles
alordofchaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 05:48 PM   #20
TXSaturn02
Master Member
TXSaturn02 has a spectacular aura aboutTXSaturn02 has a spectacular aura aboutTXSaturn02 has a spectacular aura about
 
TXSaturn02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,088
 

2002 SL2
Default Re: Quick Lube Shops..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dummo View Post
4) Would you trust your car with the fry machine operator at McDonald's?
We have entrusted our nuclear sub fleet to mostly 18, 19, and 20 year olds. The captain and the executive officers are usually the only ones with gray hair.
...
2002 SL2 Manual - new in November, 2001
As of 09/30/17: 223,751 Miles - SOLD
New owner report of 08/08/19: 234,408 Miles

2013 Mazda 3 HB - new in October 2012
As of 07/25/18: 51,495 Miles
TXSaturn02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
wheel bearings & shops fetchitfido S-Series Tech 1 07-30-2012 08:53 AM
Quick Lube Centers? brags S-Series General 56 11-16-2011 05:51 PM
Bad Body Shops mgordon1100 S-Series General 7 07-03-2007 01:13 AM
shops w/ dynos dragn270 S-Series Tech 3 04-26-2007 07:21 AM
Chicagoland Shops Psyco88 S-Series Mods 0 11-16-2006 04:59 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:27 PM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.