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Old 03-17-2019, 06:11 PM   #61
Signmaster
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1995 SL1
Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiron View Post
I haven't heard of Google Scholar before. Thanks!
It's a great resource for all things actually studied in a lab vs discussed. You still have to wade though some of it, but good stuff overall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiron View Post
I remember a theory postulated several years ago for this phenomenon of oil viscosity fluctuation as being the result of simultaneous shearing (thinning) and volatile evaporation/burn-off (thickening). This still seems to be a reasonable explanation to me.
I may have to dig, but I'm fairly sure I have a link that shows viscosity changes simply with heat age differences, without use in an engine. Both up and down, and differing with oil types.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiron View Post
I haven't heard of Google Scholar before. Thanks!
It's a great resource for all things actually studied in a lab vs discussed. You still have to wade though some of it, but good stuff overall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiron View Post
I remember a theory postulated several years ago for this phenomenon of oil viscosity fluctuation as being the result of simultaneous shearing (thinning) and volatile evaporation/burn-off (thickening). This still seems to be a reasonable explanation to me.
I may have to dig, but I'm fairly sure I have a link that shows viscosity changes simply with heat age differences, without use in an engine. Both up and down, and differing with oil types.[/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiron View Post
At least one team had the foresight to trust an anonymous blogger!


Yep, they have me on retainer to look for blogs for them now!





Quote:
Originally Posted by toggenburg View Post
Well, here's my neck out for the chopping block again...
Since 0w-16 oil IS now available for car use, so how come there is always so much flack generated when I mention that since the 1970's, every car of the 20+ cars/trucks I have ever owned has had:

3k oil changes (all dino, until the last year or so),
No sludge issues,
None needed any throttle body, egr, or anything cleaned from soot, etc,
No engine has ever been opened up for any reason,
None ever had rod issues, never replaced any timing chains, no tappet problems, nothing, nothing but good daily service from these engines from several breeds of car manufacturers.
None burn or use oil,

AND here is probably why these engines have lasted so well: They all have had 1 quart of Dexron III added in place of 1 quart of oil at each oil and filter, change, and I usually the purchase least expensive oil and filter available.

The '96 suburban has 331,200+ miles on it, and is up for sale, only because we are going from 5 vehicles to 2.
With enough changes, chances are most oils are going to protect an engine for quite a period of time. Unless you made a horrible oil choice you're being cautious and changing it more. I'd guess that even the worst oils wouldn't do much damage in a few thousand miles of use.

As for the tranny fluid, I'd never personally use it, and suspect that your engines lasted despite it rather than because of it. Though it is an oil, the additives packages are more designed for long term oxidation protection and clutch friction characteristics rather than for combatting combustion by products and the high heats oils are often subjected to.

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Old 03-20-2019, 07:07 AM   #62
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1995 SL1
Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiron View Post
I remember a theory postulated several years ago for this phenomenon of oil viscosity fluctuation as being the result of simultaneous shearing (thinning) and volatile evaporation/burn-off (thickening). This still seems to be a reasonable explanation to me.
Here's one with no impact from shearing. Strange how things change over time with heat applied.


Characterization of Thermal Stability of Synthetic and Semi-Synthetic Engine Oils

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Old 03-28-2019, 01:12 PM   #63
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

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Here's one with no impact from shearing. Strange how things change over time with heat applied.


Characterization of Thermal Stability of Synthetic and Semi-Synthetic Engine Oils
Wow, lots of good info in that study! Thanks!

I remember in the early days of BITOG the UOAs of Subaru turbocharged engines showed near-normal viscosities, those of Saab turbocharged engines showed the oil had thinned, and those of Volvo turbocharged engines showed dramatic thickening. I wonder if Subaru's and Saab's origins designing aircraft taught them to better control oil sump temps (or shorter oil dwell times in the engine and super-heated turbo?) than Volvo did?

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Old 03-28-2019, 04:43 PM   #64
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

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.....A 4-stroke, Otto gas engine should NOT burn oil.

A rotary engine will burn oil, because its design will not prevent oil from leaking into the combustion chambers. Failing emissions tests are largely why rotary engines have been phased out by Mazda..........
You are obviously not familiar with the rotary engines in RX-7's. Fact; the rotary engine is deliberately metering oil from the oil pump to feed specific amounts of motor oil into the carburetors. This oil premixes with fuel for direct lubrication of rotor seals that cannot be lubed by conventional means of the oil galleries in every 4- stroke engine. Since rotary engines have completely different seals on each rotor, and doesn't use pistons, oil lubrication is handled differently. How do I know this? I had the pleasure/displeasure of attempting to startup a RX-7 after a few years of being a garage queen. I never had the experience of disassembling a four barrel carb when it was fouled with old gas. Carbs are not rocket science and I have a few skills, mostly paying attention to all the parts when they were removed. The brass jets were fouled so it was easy to see this as the main reason for the engine not starting up and idling. That was when I discovered two translucent oil lines coming from the oil pump, feeding oil into the carburetor, to feed metered oil into the intake for distribution to the rotor seals. Oil back then was probably 10w30 or something close. I had 250cc 2-stroke dirt street legal bike that did the same, a separate oil container filled with 2-stroke oil fed into a small oil pump to meter oil to mix with fuel at the carburetor. Every 2-stroke engine burns oil because its designed that way. I didn't have to pre mix gas with oil since this bike did it for me. Carb cleaned of old gas and reassembled, the engine started up with zero issues. Drove it until discovering the catcon rotted internally, gradually choking off the exhaust system until the car barely ran in first gear. New catcon and new fuel filter and the car was sold at a loss. It wasn't my car but I was the one to deal with its issues to get rid off it. Personally, I preferred my Datsun 280-Z 5 speed back then.

The rotary engine was discontinued not because of your reasons. It was discontinued because of it not meeting ever stricter emissions. Carburetors were great in the day but emissions clamping down on vehicles, the invention of EFI systems and tougher emissions with better catalytic converters simply did away with engines that can't meet emissions requirements. Fortunately, when muscle cars died, no one foresaw that one day EFI systems and catcons finally met along with fine tuning EFI computers to bring us more muscle cars than anyone ever expected. Who imagined buying a stock car with turbo or supercharging with hundreds of horsepower? Corvette, Cadillac, Mustang, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Rolls Royce, Bentley, Range Rover, et al. All selling high horsepower engines with no end in sight. Those old enough to mourn the passing of old muscle cars are either dead or are delighted to see new muscle cars but may not be able to drive them but appreciate how muscle cars came back from the dead. Credit to the technical evolution forcing and allowing refinements in ice cars.

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Old 03-28-2019, 04:49 PM   #65
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Quote:
Originally Posted by gveinot View Post
Saturn Oil Burning: I'm up here in Canada use Canadian Tire Synthetic. Last year there was a special on Shell Pennzoil Platinum so I bought four 5 litre jugs. BIG MISTAKE. My car used much more oil with it. I switched back to the Canadian Tire type and after the 2nd cycles it is back to where it was before. I tried a MMO soak for over 48 hours, no changed. We owned this car from new, it has always been on Synthetic. It started burning oil at about 300,000km. It now has 460,000 on it. From what I have read, MMO, Seafoam, is all hit and miss. I think the GM Top Engine Cleaner works the best. I plan to try it this summer. My engine, makes no weird noises, no blue smoke, still has plenty of power and will deliver 40 mpg at 55 miles per hour.
At 300k kms/186.4k miles, I think it's ok for an engine to consume oil. You may be in the small group with much less oil consumption issues than most S- series owners, especially retaining 40mpg after 400k kms. I would consider this exceptional for retaining a car after several hundred thousand kilometers, very low oil consumption and still achieving high mpgs.

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Old 03-28-2019, 04:58 PM   #66
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

NWSaturn247, I didn't wade thru this thread so forgive me if I'm repeating something someone else suggested. If you have a supply of varying oil blends, by all means try the synthetic diesel oil since they're supposedly designed with more detergent action than regular motor oil. Diesel oil may help wash the engine of any buildup on piston rings contributing to oil consumption issues.

If im not mistaken, M-1 oil was designed for superior lubrication in temperature extremes and with better detergent action. I still remember early ads showing clean engines issuing M-1 oil, as if the engine just left factory assembly. Pay more, get more. Syn oil has slowly altered old school thinking but has ways to go convincing owners not to continue with outdated 3k mile oil changes.

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Old 03-29-2019, 06:03 PM   #67
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1999 SL2
Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Checked my oil at 2238 miles into OCI, a little over the hashmarks and 2 quarts top-off MSS 5w-30.

I have extensively been shifting to 3 then 2 to trim speed and coming to a stop, I figure this may help free things up over time. I did the same with my '93 for years without any issues.

Today I added 1 cup of Rislone Engine Treatment part number 100QR.

Each time the level is at the top of the hashmarks I will add another cup.

...
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TCW3 dosed fuel

https://www.ls1.com/forums/f48/been-testing-oil-91206/

.....
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Old 03-29-2019, 11:20 PM   #68
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Rislone? I used to use it until I switched to Dexron III in the oil decades ago.
Does not do any harm, just keeps everything quiet, clean and cheaper than Marvel Mystery Oil or Rislone.

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Old 03-30-2019, 12:19 AM   #69
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

My supply of Rislone has been purchased at a discounted price already, and the base of the product is fully formulated for use in an ICE. The viscosity is 10w-20 and according to an expert in the field who is highly regarded on BITOG the formulation has an 11 percent ester content
Attached Images
File Type: png 20190329_211752.png (137.3 KB, 7 views)

...
1999 SL2 A4 -83k miles

TCW3 dosed fuel

https://www.ls1.com/forums/f48/been-testing-oil-91206/

.....
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Old 03-30-2019, 08:28 AM   #70
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Rislone is an ancient product and it actually works. More of a product that prevents sludge and varnish buildup than the removal of existing deposits.

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Old 06-16-2019, 03:53 PM   #71
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

I performed a 20 minute Chemtool B-12 idle flush in May, followed by a short run with Quaker State Higher Mileage Engine, then changed oil again with MSHM and ~20% MMO . I would expect even higher consumption with the additive but currently it looks like a slight improvement ~1500 mpq

...
1999 SL2 A4 -83k miles

TCW3 dosed fuel

https://www.ls1.com/forums/f48/been-testing-oil-91206/

.....
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Old 06-18-2019, 06:56 AM   #72
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Quote:
Originally Posted by NWSaturn247 View Post
I performed a 20 minute Chemtool B-12 idle flush in May, followed by a short run with Quaker State Higher Mileage Engine, then changed oil again with MSHM and ~20% MMO . I would expect even higher consumption with the additive but currently it looks like a slight improvement ~1500 mpq
On this car you've never done the top of piston soaks correct? I just don't want to mix up your previous car.

Good results either way.

...
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Old 06-18-2019, 02:33 PM   #73
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1999 SL2
Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

No piston soak yet. May be a while before doing it. Maybe never. Wait and see.

...
1999 SL2 A4 -83k miles

TCW3 dosed fuel

https://www.ls1.com/forums/f48/been-testing-oil-91206/

.....
1993 SL2 SOLD @189k

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Old 06-22-2019, 10:58 AM   #74
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

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Originally Posted by NWSaturn247 View Post
No piston soak yet. May be a while before doing it. Maybe never. Wait and see.
Now you've got me wondering what might happen if someone did the top method soak following by the lower flush.

...
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Old 06-22-2019, 02:32 PM   #75
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

^^^sounds like a plan. May be in the Fall. I want to follow up this MMO OCI with a Mobil 1 OCI with a bit of Liquimoly mos2

In the Fall oil change I will change the valve cover gasket (Yes there will be some engine pron) then the soak (step1 B-12, step 2 PB Blaster, step 3 Rislone Engine Treatment) then yes idle for a while with the already B-12 well dosed oil.

Then I will drop in some fresh NGK G-Power plugs.

...
1999 SL2 A4 -83k miles

TCW3 dosed fuel

https://www.ls1.com/forums/f48/been-testing-oil-91206/

.....
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Old 06-23-2019, 09:36 PM   #76
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
You are obviously not familiar with the rotary engines in RX-7's. Fact; the rotary engine is deliberately metering oil from the oil pump to feed specific amounts of motor oil into the carburetors. This oil premixes with fuel for direct lubrication of rotor seals that cannot be lubed by conventional means of the oil galleries in every 4- stroke engine. Since rotary engines have completely different seals on each rotor, and doesn't use pistons, oil lubrication is handled differently. How do I know this? I had the pleasure/displeasure of attempting to startup a RX-7 after a few years of being a garage queen. I never had the experience of disassembling a four barrel carb when it was fouled with old gas. Carbs are not rocket science and I have a few skills, mostly paying attention to all the parts when they were removed. The brass jets were fouled so it was easy to see this as the main reason for the engine not starting up and idling. That was when I discovered two translucent oil lines coming from the oil pump, feeding oil into the carburetor, to feed metered oil into the intake for distribution to the rotor seals. Oil back then was probably 10w30 or something close. I had 250cc 2-stroke dirt street legal bike that did the same, a separate oil container filled with 2-stroke oil fed into a small oil pump to meter oil to mix with fuel at the carburetor. Every 2-stroke engine burns oil because its designed that way. I didn't have to pre mix gas with oil since this bike did it for me. Carb cleaned of old gas and reassembled, the engine started up with zero issues. Drove it until discovering the catcon rotted internally, gradually choking off the exhaust system until the car barely ran in first gear. New catcon and new fuel filter and the car was sold at a loss. It wasn't my car but I was the one to deal with its issues to get rid off it. Personally, I preferred my Datsun 280-Z 5 speed back then.

The rotary engine was discontinued not because of your reasons. It was discontinued because of it not meeting ever stricter emissions. Carburetors were great in the day but emissions clamping down on vehicles, the invention of EFI systems and tougher emissions with better catalytic converters simply did away with engines that can't meet emissions requirements. Fortunately, when muscle cars died, no one foresaw that one day EFI systems and catcons finally met along with fine tuning EFI computers to bring us more muscle cars than anyone ever expected. Who imagined buying a stock car with turbo or supercharging with hundreds of horsepower? Corvette, Cadillac, Mustang, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Rolls Royce, Bentley, Range Rover, et al. All selling high horsepower engines with no end in sight. Those old enough to mourn the passing of old muscle cars are either dead or are delighted to see new muscle cars but may not be able to drive them but appreciate how muscle cars came back from the dead. Credit to the technical evolution forcing and allowing refinements in ice cars.
https://www.autobeatdaily.com/blog/p...-rotary-engine

As Quoted: "But controlling exhaust emissions and delivering competitive fuel economy has always been a challenge."

They phased out the engine because they couldn't remain in compliance with CAFE or the EPA emissions standard.

I have been tearing apart engines and cars, of and on, for the greater part of almost 20 years. I am well-familiar with how a rotary engine operates. I am also familiar with the combustion process and emissions.

My oil-burning SC2 will never pass emission, despite averaging 31-37mpg combined city/highway, which is well over the estimated 28-29, by the EPA.

And WHEN my fully-rebuilt engine is installed, I am hoping to get closer to 40mpg combined. Little exhaust porting to match the header ports, flat-faced valves to bump up compression a little, and viola, more power and more economy.

...
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"He checks the gas, and fills the oil....."

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