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Old 07-14-2019, 11:52 AM   #1
Chaz9496
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Default Cooling Fans Run After Engine Swap

Since I had the engines swapped from my Son's 2003 with my 2001 Ecotech the cooling fans won't shut off. They didn't run before I swapped them out. I get a Coolant Temp Sensor, Knock Sensor and O2 Sensor Code. Everything's hooked up as I can tell. A Tech I trust did it. I changed out the relay box and coolant sensor, cleared the codes and they don't run until I turn the engine off and restart it then they run again with the A/C off as well. I've run out of idea's. YouTube shows the same things I did for a fix on most vehicles. Should the computers have possibly needed to of been changed out ? The car's gone to the recycling yard now so it can't be retrieved. Any other things I can check ? I know other things can tell the computer to run the fans that have nothing to do with what I changed. It's happened before on the 2003 when the cat went bad. Thanks in advance.

Last edited by Chaz9496; 07-14-2019 at 11:53 AM.. Reason: Wording Change

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Old 07-14-2019, 04:23 PM   #2
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Default Re: Cooling Fans Run After Engine Swap

Changed 2.2L engines (equal swap?) and relay box? Do you mean the engine fuse box?

Under normal circumstances, cooling fan operation runs when coolant temps reach a temperature above boiling point or when ac is used. A lesser known third reason would be when engine shutdown occurs and coolant temps are unusually higher. A variable timed event is programmed to run the fan after engine shutdown for as long as three minutes to help with cool down.

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Old 07-14-2019, 05:10 PM   #3
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Default Re: Cooling Fans Run After Engine Swap

I want to be sure that I'm understanding you correctly. Did the engine installed come from a 2003 L-Series to a 2001 L-Series?
Further questions:
1) How long has this engine been in the car?
2) Did this issue arise immediately after the installation was completed or was it some time afterwards?
3) What is the reading of the temperature gauge after the engine has been running for 10 minutes or more?
4) Was the thermostat replaced?
5) Did both engines have an EGR Valve and A.I.R. system? There was a mid-year split in 2001 with the ECOTEC 2.2L where the early model ('00-early '01) had neither of those parts, but the later model did. (My engine does not have them.)

Looking through RockAuto's PCM applications for a 2001 and 2003 L-Series 2.2L, it would appear to be nearly impossible to run the vehicle if it had the wrong PCM as the connectors would be incompatible from the wiring harness to the unit. (I suppose it would be possible to convert the wiring harness along the way to overcome that installation concern.)

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Old 07-14-2019, 08:04 PM   #4
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Default Re: Cooling Fans Run After Engine Swap

Yup for the engine swap. 1. 3 Weeks 2. Yup 3. In-between 1/4 & 1/2 as it should. 4. No 5. Can't say. I asked about the engine swap before I had it done and was told by another member here that 2000 to 2005 Ecotech swap-out with no issues. Other than that, I've had no problems but only the fans. I did find that unhooking the neg battery cable for 30 min does keep them off until it's restarted, then they start running again, only while the engines running.

Last edited by Chaz9496; 07-14-2019 at 08:07 PM.. Reason: Added Comment

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Old 07-14-2019, 10:32 PM   #5
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Default Re: Cooling Fans Run After Engine Swap

I forgot to add. No, the cooling fan relay box on the battery tray, not any fuse boxes. There's no fuses in that one.

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Old 08-18-2019, 06:29 PM   #6
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Default Re: Cooling Fans Run After Engine Swap

Does anyone know if there's a cooling fan resistor besides the relays ?

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Old 08-18-2019, 08:13 PM   #7
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Default Re: Cooling Fans Run After Engine Swap

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaz9496 View Post
Does anyone know if there's a cooling fan resistor besides the relays ?
I don't know of such a part existing outside of the Fan Control Module (FCM) box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaz9496 View Post
Since I had the engines swapped from my Son's 2003 with my 2001 Ecotech the cooling fans won't shut off. They didn't run before I swapped them out.
1) So after engine swap was completed and the engine was first being run would the engine cooling fans not function at all?
2) Did you turn on the air conditioning to see if they would run because the a/c had been engaged?
3) Did you run the engine with a new coolant temp sensor and the original FCM?
4) Did you run the engine only with the new sensor and replacement FCM? (BTW, was the replacement FCM new or from a wrecking yard?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaz9496 View Post
I get a Coolant Temp Sensor, Knock Sensor and O2 Sensor Code. Everything's hooked up as I can tell. A Tech I trust did it. I changed out the relay box and coolant sensor, cleared the codes and they don't run until I turn the engine off and restart it then they run again with the A/C off as well.
Have any trouble codes returned or is the computer (PCM) completely clear of them?

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Old 08-18-2019, 10:04 PM   #8
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Default Re: Cooling Fans Run After Engine Swap

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaz9496 View Post
Does anyone know if there's a cooling fan resistor besides the relays ?
The fan control module switches both fans in one of three speeds. The ecm/pcm determines which speed is needed according to coolant temperatures and/or ac operation. The difference in turn on temperatures between '01 and '03 L200s is minor. Below is a partial description of a three speed cooling fan. The medium speed of both fans uses a resistor. In general, one way to determine fan speeds would be turning on ac (presuming ac works) - both fans are supposed to run at low speed immediately. One hot and humid days and idling for more than five minutes, both cooling fans should switch to medium or high speed. Testing fans should be done on a cool day or early during the day, turning on ac with a cold engine. Both fans should be running at low speed. As the engine warms up and ac is turned on, fans will run at low speed then switch to medium speed after stopped, parked for several minutes when airflow is non existent from lack of vehicle movement. As temps rise above approximately 80F, medium and high speed is selected depending on coolant temps.

Cooling Fan Logic

*Low speed - both fans in series - 6 volts each.
*Medium speed - both fans in parallel with resistor in series - 9 volts each.
*High speed - both fans in parallel without resistor - 12 volts each.

The fan speed selected is based on coolant temperature or A/C system high side pressure. (2001 Saturn L100/L200/LW200)

Low Speed

Enabled if coolant temperature exceeds 96 C (204 F) or A/C system pressure exceeds 1199 kPa (174 psi) high side.
Disabled if coolant temperature goes below 92 C (198 F) and A/C system pressure goes below 799 kPa (116 psi) high side.

Medium Speed

Enabled if coolant temperature exceeds 99 C (210 F) or A/C system pressure exceeds 1695 kPa (246 psi) high side.
Back to Low speed if coolant temperature goes below 97 C (207 F) and A/C system pressure goes below 1399 kPa (203 psi) high side.

High Speed

Enabled if coolant temperature exceeds 102 C (216 F) or A/C system pressure exceeds 2398 kPa (348 psi) high side.
Back to Medium speed if coolant temperature goes below 100 C (212 F) and A/C system pressure goes below 2198 kPa (319 psi) high side.


The resistor is in one of the webs. Some images of the resistor in each fan assembly; http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=234970

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Old 08-18-2019, 10:47 PM   #9
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Default Re: Cooling Fans Run After Engine Swap

^It was interesting rereading the thread linked. In considering post #6 I was imagining a resistor being placed well apart from the FCM and had no thought of one near any other electrical cooling component. I'm glad that you brought this information back to assist with the OP's concern.

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Old 08-18-2019, 11:10 PM   #10
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Default Re: Cooling Fans Run After Engine Swap

Since I can't locate the problem and neither could the tech that swapped engines with a quick "Live Data" scan, I decided that there's not much hot weather left this season so instead of paying $90 to bring it back and have him try and trace the problem, I'm just going to pass on it until next year. I already spent $1200 having then engines changed, I'm not going to spend anymore on it for awhile. I'll just let them run or keep opening the hood and plugging them and unplugging them until I want to blow that much money on it again. I still think it has something to do with the ECM not being swapped but there's no easy answers since I've tried everything that could cause it. I even swapped out the A/C high pressure switch that I saw a video on YouTube about an Impala with the same issue as mine and didn't fix it either. My co-workers say, that should be their fault whats happening and should be found at no cost. Well, I don't believe it works that way. They didn't actually cause it by simply changing an engine in my thought. Why it did it after is still a frustrating mystery and makes no sense as well. The shop doesn't understand it either why it's doing it, other than a complete electrical trace. No thanks for the time being. Thanks for your comments.

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Old 08-19-2019, 12:32 AM   #11
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Default Re: Cooling Fans Run After Engine Swap

This problem probably requires more than casual thought from normal diagnosing procedures. As a thought problem, this may need a little more digging to determine why fans run when its not a short somewhere or faulty fan control module.

Some Saturn models will turn on cooling fans when the temperature sensor is disconnected or fails to send signals to the ecm/pcm. Engineers working with software programming like to use electronics to work in abnormal conditions. Since electronics govern most of an EFI system, a failure of one sensor or wiring damage can result in one of several scenarios. In electronics, a flow chart is used to ask questions in logical sequence where semi automated operations interact with a computer to make decisions. In the S-series, a disconnected coolant sensor is detected by the pcm. The pcm, from programming determines its safer to run the cooling fan as an over ride condition since it has no way to know if the engine is freezing, warm or overheating. Risking engine damage from overheating just because the coolant sensor was disconnected, wiring damage occurred when maintenance is performed, is not a reason to continue engine running so turning on the cooling fan is a default to protect against engine damage. This is well known in the S-series forums. Whether this default applies to other Saturn models hasn't occurred.

One way to tell if sensors are operating as designed is thru live data from a reader. Good readers will display live data and record it for later review. the problem some find themselves in is attempting to read live data with no baseline values recorded prior to a problem occurring. Experienced diyers and more importantly repair shops and dealers should have an idea of what to expect from any sensor in related to engine temperature at cold startup relative to ambient temps, expected idle rpm during cold engine running, idle rpm with a warm engine, map sensor info at ign on, engine off then at idle, throttle position at ign on engine off then with engine running, etc.. Knowing what's expected from live data is important than just having live data with zero references to compare values. An example is next.

I made logs of various engine runs, starting with recording cold engine data before starting. In my case, ambient temps, engine temps, map, maf, throttle position data was of value unbeknownst to me until a member having issues with his car posted his problems. Diagnosing was easier since I had baseline data from a normal engine and this member recording data and posting it. We simply compared data and became aware of maf sensor data that didn't match mine. His maf sensor was faulty with no error codes pointing to it. Comparing my values with his showed a maf sensor that was giving erroneous values. Once replaced, his engine was fine. Having baseline data from a normal engine run allows technical diagnosing live data alone cannot provide by itself as most of us lack advanced knowledge of EFI systems.

Back to the problem, my guess is if the engine computer is expecting specific signals at specific moments and doesn't see it to compare with internal values in its database, programming may flag it as abnormal and turn on something. This can be the service, wrench, abs, Passlock, airbag indicator to alert the driver of a problem. Other unusual issues may not turn on any indicator or generate an error code. Without an idiot light or error code to go by, more than casual knowledge may help determine why something is recurring without the bells and whistles we rely on. Not everything in electronics with computers have lights to point the way.

The cooling fans turning on with a cold engine tells me the engine computer is sensing something wrong and defaults to running the fans. Live data should be read again. An engine left overnight cools to ambient temperatures so an immediate engine temperature display should show close to ambient temps within a few degrees. The air intake temperature sensor is the same and should display close to ambient temps. Other sensors can be used and then converted to values to coincide with expected values. A map sensor is basically an electronic barometric pressure sensor so comparing map sensor value at ign on time should coincide with local barometric pressure from a weather station.

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Old 08-19-2019, 01:05 AM   #12
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Default Re: Cooling Fans Run After Engine Swap

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaz9496 View Post
Since I had the engines swapped from my Son's 2003 with my 2001 Ecotech the cooling fans won't shut off. They didn't run before I swapped them out. I get a Coolant Temp Sensor, Knock Sensor and O2 Sensor Code. Everything's hooked up as I can tell. A Tech I trust did it. I changed out the relay box and coolant sensor, cleared the codes and they don't run until I turn the engine off and restart it then they run again with the A/C off as well. I've run out of idea's. YouTube shows the same things I did for a fix on most vehicles. Should the computers have possibly needed to of been changed out ? The car's gone to the recycling yard now so it can't be retrieved. Any other things I can check ? I know other things can tell the computer to run the fans that have nothing to do with what I changed. It's happened before on the 2003 when the cat went bad. Thanks in advance.
What are the exact code numbers you are/were getting?

I don't think there's a fault in the cooling fan wiring at all.

I suspect that a ground connection for the ECM is weak or missing which is affecting the ECM's ability to use the incoming signal from the knock sensor, coolant temp sensor, and oxygen sensor(s) because the circuits are open. None of these would prevent the engine from running, but would definitely hinder it's ability to run efficiently and reduce fuel economy.

If your temp gauge goes anywhere toward the middle immediately after a cold start (after engine sat overnight), that's a dead giveaway that the ECM isn't getting a signal from the coolant temp sensor or the coolant temp sensor circuit is open (due to the missing ground). Most GM vehicles are programmed to run the cooling fans at high speed as a fail-safe if a coolant temp sensor code is stored. This would explain why they are running all the time.

I think the ECM is commanding the fans to run because a coolant temp sensor code is stored. A shop with a professional-grade scan tool would easily be able to confirm this.

Also, the Ecotec 2.2L engine was never actually equipped with an EGR valve. The Saturn parts diagrams don't list one. They only show a cover for the EGR opening which is p/n 24575592.

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Old 08-19-2019, 07:12 PM   #13
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Default Re: Cooling Fans Run After Engine Swap

ruley73: The only codes left are the Knock Sensor and 02 Downstream Heater failure on the live data scanner. The Coolant Sensor I replaced from the '01 engine and that code is gone since cleared. Another tech I talked to today I know stated he thinks there may be another sensor somewhere besides the Coolant Sensor that may be unplugged. I have no idea where another sensor would be that would be connected to operate the fans. He said some have 2 on other GM products. I've traced wires and found nothing unplugged that I can tell. The tech that swapped engines is going to look into it for me and see what else he can find on it. He stated that tracing wires wouldn't be an issue with this and wouldn't charge me for wire tracing unless it was needed and would tell me first. It would be a flat $90 labor charge to locate it and fix it.

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