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Old 08-02-2017, 08:48 PM   #61
OldNuc
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Default Re: Using a lot of oil

Any increase in operating temperature viscosity results in an increase in oil temperature, a reduction in flow rate, and usually a increase in indicated bearing oil header pressure. The oil heats hotter and moves slower. Film thickness may not change and the dwell time probably increases. Increasing oil weight increases hot operating viscosity until you reach the onset of thermal breakdown. Using anything over the energy conserving 30 weight oil in these engines is an excellent way to soon make an oil burner. The 30 weight energy conserving oil is at the low viscosity end of the 30 weight grade range with most products.

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Old 08-04-2017, 01:56 PM   #62
Eiron
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Default Re: Using a lot of oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
... The oil heats hotter and moves slower. ...
Actually, as the oil gets hotter, it gets thinner, so it moves faster.

Quote:
... Using anything over the energy conserving 30 weight oil in these engines is an excellent way to soon make an oil burner. ...
From what I've seen (both here and over at BITOG), sticking to the energy conserving 30 weight oil in these engines is doing a pretty good job of making them oil burners.

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Old 08-04-2017, 11:43 PM   #63
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Default Re: Using a lot of oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiron View Post
Actually, as the oil gets hotter, it gets thinner, so it moves faster.

From what I've seen (both here and over at BITOG), sticking to the energy conserving 30 weight oil in these engines is doing a pretty good job of making them oil burners.
The flawed piston design, lacking of needed drain back holes, makes them oil burners.

...
"What does a Saturn owner do, at the gas station?"

"He checks the gas, and fills the oil....."

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Old 08-05-2017, 09:50 AM   #64
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Default Re: Using a lot of oil

Rebuilt DOHC engine with proper factory designed drain back ports running nothing but 5w-30 oil and over 70,000 miles on the rebuild uses(leaks and/or burns) absolutely NO oil. Another example which has home drilled drain holes is the same story.

The best oil weight to use is the lowest weight oil that provides ADEQUATE oil pressure under all operating conditions. If you do not know how to come up with this value then use the recommended 30 weight energy conserving oil, the 0w-5w-10W has absolutely no impact on what is going on at any temperature above 40-50F.

The oil burning is the result of no thrust face drain path AND people using low quality, low cost oil that has a low onset of thermal breakdown temperature.

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Old 08-05-2017, 08:14 PM   #65
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Default Re: Using a lot of oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
...
The best oil weight to use is the lowest weight oil that provides ADEQUATE oil pressure under all operating conditions. ...
Assuming I could get the same characteristics, features, and benefits from an energy-conserving oil that I can from other better built oils, I might agree. Unfortunately, there's too much more to modern oils than just providing adequate pressure. I guess we'll just have to disagree on this point.

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Old 08-05-2017, 09:07 PM   #66
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Default Re: Using a lot of oil

You seem to be having a misunderstanding as to what qualifies for "Energy Conserving Oil" certification. Maybe this will get you started: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...rving-doughnut

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Old 08-06-2017, 12:00 AM   #67
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Default Re: Using a lot of oil

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Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
You seem to be having a misunderstanding as to what qualifies for "Energy Conserving Oil" certification. Maybe this will get you started...
LOL, thanks, I'm fully versed in EC/ECII oils. (but I appreciate the gesture)

How about this:
Every engine I've converted over from conventional to Grp4 syn saw a greater increase in fuel efficiency than what the EC oils are mandated to provide, and none of those Grp4 oils were EC oils.

e.g.:
When I converted my 1990 Saab 900 2.0L 4-cyl (non-turbo) from 10W-30 Castrol GTX to 15W-50 Mobil 1 (at 120k mi), I saw a 5% fuel efficiency increase. Conventional 10W-30 was the North American recommendation for oil in that engine, and also for the transmission. I later converted the trans from the 75W-90 gear oil that everyone insisted was the correct oil (manufacturer's recommendations be damned) to Rotella T6 5W-40, and experienced better shifting from -10F winters thru +100F summers here in Northern Colorado. As I've said before, that car is now my son's daily driver, with over 300,000 miles on both the original engine and transmission. It's seen strict 20,000 mile OCIs with Grp4 syn since 2004/174,000 mi, and it shows no signs of weakening.

I'm a highly OCD manufacturing and design engineer by trade, and I've done literally decades of research into tribology research. Still, you need to use what lets you sleep at night.

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Old 08-06-2017, 12:35 AM   #68
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Default Re: Using a lot of oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiron View Post
...
How about this:
Every engine I've converted over from conventional to Grp4 syn saw a greater increase in fuel efficiency than what the EC oils are mandated to provide, and none of those Grp4 oils were EC oils.

This is not a great revelation. That is the major justification for a 100% PAO based oil.

<sipped out unrelated info>

I'm a highly OCD manufacturing and design engineer by trade, and I've done literally decades of research into tribology research. Still, you need to use what lets you sleep at night.
Forgive me for not being impressed.

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Old 08-06-2017, 03:10 AM   #69
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Default Re: Using a lot of oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Forgive me for not being impressed.
LOL, no worries. The feeling's mutual.

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Old 08-06-2017, 10:02 AM   #70
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Default Re: Using a lot of oil

FYI, if anyone is interested there is something new on the horizon.

dexos1 Gen 2 expected to be released late August 2017
API SP/ILSAC GF-6 expected to be released fall 2019

Some oil formulations are changing now (8/17) to meet these new industry standards and old formulations are being cleared from inventory.

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Old 08-06-2017, 06:21 PM   #71
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Default Re: Using a lot of oil

Let's face facts people. All the hand waving in the world doesn't prove a thing, and every oil unless tightly controlled under specific conditions is a compromise, including (probably even more so) the OEM recommendations.

A single recommendation for a single engine type is probably based more on warranty costs coverage data more than anything else. Beyond that the long term reliability, government mandates, costs associated with any company supplied maintenance, simplicity for the end users, etc, etc all come into the picture.

Short of knowing the exacts of any specific engine in regards to tolerances, wear, pressures, and a vast array of operating conditions, nobody really knows what the "best" oil is. "Best" is at best very subjective, as best power would not be provided by the same oil as best fuel economy, which would not be the best for long term engine longevity, and the list goes on.

And at any rate, claiming that any engine with low miles on it does not burn oil is just as insane. Our Satty didn't burn oil until it passed 6 figures on the odometer, and that was bone stock factory engineering, and lesser quality oils when it was produced. I'd say if anyone has rebuilds burning oil with supposed superior materials and lubricants, they shouldn't even consider bragging until or unless they are getting 150-200K without any real oil consumption.


Driving factors alone would account for a great deal of required change for any lubrication optimization. The SL1 in grocery getter duty driven lightly is unlikely to have the need for the same oils as a twin cammer driven hard with higher loads. The same applies to a host of vehicles in a host of different operating environments.


At the pointy end of racing development, oils are often chosen after acquiring a huge pile of data specific to tracks, weather conditions, and the loads absorbed throughout the races. Even then they often compromise to find the balance of engine longevity vs power vs economy, etc.


My .02 on having all the answers on engine oil is that reality states people with much more in depth backgrounds and mounds more data don't have all the answers. To suggest that any of us knows the optimum oils for another persons car and driving conditions without a lot more information is rather silly at best.

...
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Old 04-14-2019, 02:13 PM   #72
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Default Re: Using a lot of oil

It is my understanding the copper in Restore is part of the copper-silver-lead colloidal particle size, particles that melt in hot spots and flow to fill worn spots in bearing and sleeve and piston wall surfaces, and the blue fluid color is probably just a dye in the oil. Risolene was also blue IIRC.

I have used restore now for about 15 years, still all the rigs we have used it in except the Ford, and the engine was the only part left that was not a POS when we sold it, LOL.

FWIW, its been almost 2 years now since I used the MMO oil additive two days in a row over night soaking the tops of the pistons by adding through the spark plug holes. Oil consumption with the same oil I use all my rigs in the heat belt down south, dropped from a quart every <200 miles to maybe a quart in 2000+ miles. Getting close to 285,000 miles on the 2001 SL1.

I have another crazy snake oil story. I was shocked when the delay tactic I used to avoid replacing the head gasket right away on a 1995 Chevy Tahoo (my other daughter's) not only slowed a 3 gallon in 20 mile leak of coolant from the cooling system out the tail pipe, but repeated use of the pellets (4 of them) followed by the 3 of the the black oily version with small pellets (1/2 pint), and then one last bottle of radiator safe silicate/copper fiber (Pint) bottle in 2 weeks, (By the way the radiator was already new when we started this), sealed the leak 100%, and they have not had to add water/antifreeze for about 3000 miles now. I knew the Bars Leaks worked on small coolant leaks, I have used it on rigs I kept for 10+ years, going back to the 1970s with no problems, but a 3 gallon water fog leak out the tail in a 20 minute drive???? That was one hell of a head gasket leak. Note the head gasket leak was caused by running the engine with no coolant (radiator had a huge hole by the time I was asked for 911 help LOL). Oh, and the engine was never bothered by the leak It still runs like new. 24 year old V-8 with major miles on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn Night View Post
Well, we'll see what happens. I just added it, at the engine oil FULL line, with the car sitting level. I drove it for about 30 miles. Guessing maybe this stuff needs to cool to solidify. It did appear to lessen the smoking on takeoffs, slightly.

I know the Bar's Leak product required the car to sit overnight.

Restore doesn't mention anything, other than adding to the oil and using at every oil change(which for $6-8 bucks a can doesn't sound like a bad idea IF it actually works to lessen the oil burning). Must use some form of Copper Sulfate, because it was a thymus dark blue color going into the engine.

Should I have used more than 9oz, for a 4-cylinder? The can said "4-cylinder Formula".

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