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Old 02-25-2017, 05:41 PM   #1
Bradg
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2004 VUE Red Line
Default 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

I have a 2004 red line Vue 3.5. It has around 150000 miles on it. I picked it up for a good price because it had some problems. I've taken care of most of them except for one. It throws misfire codes. P0300-306. Idles rough and just runs rough through out all ranges. Runs better when it's cold but that's relative. I've gone through just about every check and nothing has changed.
1.Changed plugs
2.Checked coils
3.Adjusted valves
4.Checked timing
5. Fuel pressure check
6. Vacuum leak test. Perfect
7. Changed out cam sensor.
All other sensors seem to be good.
The only thing I haven't done is crank sensor and pcm change. I tried to find out how to check the crank sensor but found nothing. It has 6 wires coming from it. And I have no idea how see if the computer is bad. Anything I'm missing? By all accounts and specs this thing should run like a top. Any advice would be awesome. Thanks.

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Old 02-26-2017, 10:38 AM   #2
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Default Re: 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

Checked the compression?

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Old 02-26-2017, 10:47 AM   #3
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2004 VUE Red Line
Default Re: 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

Yes. I forgot to lost that. It was excellent across the board.

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Old 02-26-2017, 10:57 AM   #4
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Default Re: 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

If it runs better when cold it's probably because it's running richer. Once warm, computer switches to normal mix and if injectors are clogged, cylinders might not get enough fuel. Probably need to hook it up to a scope to see what's going on, but if removing the injectors isn't too hard, I'd send them out for ultrasonic cleaning.

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Old 02-26-2017, 12:21 PM   #5
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2007 VUE 3.5L
Default Re: 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradg View Post
I have a 2004 red line Vue 3.5. It has around 150000 miles on it. I picked it up for a good price because it had some problems. I've taken care of most of them except for one. It throws misfire codes. P0300-306. Idles rough and just runs rough through out all ranges. Runs better when it's cold but that's relative. I've gone through just about every check and nothing has changed.
1.Changed plugs
2.Checked coils
3.Adjusted valves
4.Checked timing
5. Fuel pressure check
6. Vacuum leak test. Perfect
7. Changed out cam sensor.
All other sensors seem to be good.
The only thing I haven't done is crank sensor and pcm change. I tried to find out how to check the crank sensor but found nothing. It has 6 wires coming from it. And I have no idea how see if the computer is bad. Anything I'm missing? By all accounts and specs this thing should run like a top. Any advice would be awesome. Thanks.
Do you recall how much fuel pressure you had? Did you test with engine OFF and running?

First cold start of day ... does engine start with minimum cranking and run smooth for a few seconds?

One or more O2 sensors could be acting up - they should set a code but I've seen it not happen.

Force PCM to open loop (fuel default) mode by removing 10A EMISS fuse (look for ** in underhood fuse box).

Disabling HO2S functions will set codes and exhaust fumes will smell rich but you could do long enough to see if engine smooths out.

Thumbnail is for CKP and a few other sensors (KS and CMP). The Honda 3.5 CKP should set any one of four codes if it isn't happy but strange things can happen.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 3.5 CKP Diagram.jpg (89.4 KB, 6 views)

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Old 02-26-2017, 12:32 PM   #6
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2004 VUE Red Line
Default Re: 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

The fuel pressure was around 60 when not running. When it was running it stayed around 52-54. First cold start it does run better but not exactly smooth. Sometimes the CEL will blink sometimes it doesn't at idle. But it does run better than when it warms up. I'll try what you suggested and see if it makes a difference. Thanks

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Old 03-02-2017, 03:21 PM   #7
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2004 VUE Red Line
Default Re: 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

I pulled the emiss fuse but it didn't change anything. Is there a way to test the crankshaft position sensor? It's got 6 posts in it. Everything shows how to check a two or three wire sensor. Also is there a way to somehow check the PCM to see if it is malfunctioning? Thanks

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Old 03-03-2017, 05:23 PM   #8
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Default Re: 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradg View Post
I pulled the emiss fuse but it didn't change anything. Is there a way to test the crankshaft position sensor? It's got 6 posts in it. Everything shows how to check a two or three wire sensor. Also is there a way to somehow check the PCM to see if it is malfunctioning? Thanks
I have spare 3.5 CKP - its temporarily misplaced and I've been trying to find to see if the resistance test would work - there are two separate sensor networks in 3.5 CKP. you could try "Googling" Honda 3.5 CKP testing.

Replacing suspected bad PCM with known good one is a valid test. You could try a used one if locally available. I recall one forum member moving one PCM between three redlines to test shift problems so it's not a big deal.

You must do a fuel password relearn for new (replacement) PCM but you can do without test equipment - it does take three 10 minute segments to complete.

I also have a spare 3.5 PCM - I bought on eBay several years back - I could lend to you if there's nothing closer to you.

PM email address and we can discuss mailing address.

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Old 03-03-2017, 06:24 PM   #9
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Default Re: 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

Bradg, if you have a reader to display live screen shots and downloadable for printout, try posting live data, one before startup (cold engine) and after warmup. A screen shot of live data may give a clue about misfires on all cylinders. Some of the items worth observing; coolant temps, maf, map, main O2 sensors (bank 1 and 2, sensor 1). Before engine startup parameters are for baseline values, warm engine values for comparison and reference against expected values. A L300 owner was able to compare my baseline and running values against his and determined a faulty maf sensor.

A cold engine running fine with a warm engine misfiring may suggest the open/closed loop mode implying O2 sensors issues. They don't output until a minute or so after engine startup as the exhaust system heats up to 600F before the sensors begin outputting valid signals for the EFI system. During cold engine running, the coolant sensor is the main signal in determining fuel mixtures (rich running). When the O2 sensors come online, the EFI system goes into closed loop mode to lean out fuel mixtures for emissions control. Coolant temps, map and maf sensor signals contributes to EFI/emissions control.

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Old 03-03-2017, 06:37 PM   #10
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2004 VUE Red Line
Default Re: 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

I don't have a reader that will do that. Sorry. And when I say it runs better when it's cold that's relative. On a dead cold start like first thing in the morning it'll start up and sounds fine but the CEL will start flashing soon after. It revs up fine but at the bottom end when you first accelerate there's a rumble hesitation before it revs up. It's not a true hesitation where it cuts out momentarily it's just a slow rumble if that makes sense. Grump I've looked that up on the Honda 3.5 but I could find nothing on testing it. Thanks guys for the input. First time I've worked on these. I've got a buddy whose got a 2004 pilot with the same engine and it's never had a problem. Seems like a good engine. It's just driving me nuts.

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Old 03-03-2017, 11:05 PM   #11
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Default Re: 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

Are you certain the timing belt is installed correctly?

I'd attach a vacuum gauge ... they're old school but a very effective tool to check for vacuum hoses, EGR or EVAP purge valve leaks.

Have you ran more than one tank of fuel so far? Who knows the evil that could be lurking in fuel system?

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Old 03-04-2017, 01:25 AM   #12
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2004 VUE Red Line
Default Re: 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

Yes I checked the timing belt. It was good. Vacuum gauge read perfectly and never budged. When I give it gas it went to 0 which I think is good , right. Means there's no blockage in the exhaust from what I've read. Also been through several tanks of gas. Checked the injectors and all worked well. I will tell you I double checked everything and when I checked the fuel pressure again, the pump jumped it up to 60 right away. When I start it, at idle the needle jumps rapidly between 48-56. When I rev it up it it stays steady @58. It does lose pressure faster than the manual says it should. Probably around 13lb of pressure in 5 min. Manual says it should be no more than 8. But it never loses it while running.

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Old 03-04-2017, 02:50 PM   #13
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Default Re: 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

The speedy fuel pressure loss can result in rough starts (and misfire codes) if you insert key and rotate directly to start after extended shutdown.

I tell my operators to turn key to ON (RUN) for a couple of seconds before trying to start ... this gives fuel pump chance to build pressure ... and you probably know that fuel pump only runs for a couple of seconds after key is turned to run unless PCM sees crank/run pulses from CKP.

If fuel pressure bleeds too low (extended shutdown) you can turn key OFF and then ON a second time to make sure fuel rail pressure is sufficiently boosted.

I found my spare CKP and made a few measurements ... see attached thumbnail ... the values may be a waste of time because the 3.5 CKP is a different critter than some of those you see on web telling you to check for 800-1200 ohms between high and low wires.

I threw a couple of other thumbnails to muddy water a tad more.

It appears you have a persistent miss across all cylinders - which is also present when you force PCM to open loop - which eliminates one or more HO2S sensors. The miss could be several flaky injectors or coil packs but key to both those is PCM so that would be my guess at this point.

As I mentioned earlier - I can mail you my spare PCM for a test period if that makes sense to you.

I'll send priority mail which will cost around $15 and you could send back when thru testing (or we could agree on price for you to keep).

PM email address if interested.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 3.5 CKP Test Results.jpg (181.2 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg CKP Pigtail - edit.jpg (116.3 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg C103 Connector.jpg (101.8 KB, 6 views)

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Old 03-04-2017, 03:46 PM   #14
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2004 VUE Red Line
Default Re: 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

Thanks Grumpy. I picked up another PCM and swapped it out. It ran exactly the same. I checked all of the coils. Numbers were a little different on each one but in the same neighborhood. I'll pull the ckp and check it out and let you know. I can't imagine all of the coils or injectors would be bad at once. It has to be something triggering them all. I would think. Also, I always let the fuel pump run before starting it just to be sure. Thanks again.

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Old 03-05-2017, 04:56 PM   #15
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Default Re: 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

Hey Grumpy. Hope you're having a good day. I tested the ckp with my digital multimeter and on the ohm setting it's reading nothing across the board. I mean nothing changes on the meter no matter which lead is on which post. The ohm setting is on 200. Is that the one you were using? I tried on all of them just to see if any would show but they didn't. Please let me know what you think. Thanks.

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Old 03-05-2017, 07:08 PM   #16
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Default Re: 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

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Hey Grumpy. Hope you're having a good day. I tested the ckp with my digital multimeter and on the ohm setting it's reading nothing across the board. I mean nothing changes on the meter no matter which lead is on which post. The ohm setting is on 200. Is that the one you were using? I tried on all of them just to see if any would show but they didn't. Please let me know what you think. Thanks.
My digital multimeter (DMM) has auto ranging and all readings I observed were above 4,000,000 ohms (referred to as meg-ohms).

I'm guessing with your meter set to 200 you'll probably top out at 200,000 ohms at full scale so you wouldn't be able to measure the necessary ranges.

Setting meter to highest resistance scale would be best chance to measure in megohm range (1,000,000 and higher resistance values).

However, I also realize the highest scale on many meters is 2000K which means you top out at about 2,000,000 ohms which just isn't high enough.

We know the engine won't start and run if CKP has failed but I suppose you're thinking a less than perfect CKP could cause engine to run rough.

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Old 03-05-2017, 08:20 PM   #17
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2004 VUE Red Line
Default Re: 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

I'll try that. Let me ask you this. Is there a diagnostic computer specific enough to pin point exactly what's causing a misfire.

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Old 03-05-2017, 08:50 PM   #18
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Default Re: 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

https://www.picoauto.com/products/au...e-kit/overview

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Old 03-06-2017, 10:28 AM   #19
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Default Re: 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

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I'll try that. Let me ask you this. Is there a diagnostic computer specific enough to pin point exactly what's causing a misfire.
See one in post #18 ... be a lot less expensive to take to dealer or upscale garage for a thorough diagnosis.

A correctly functioning PCM is a great diagnostic tool as it monitors sensors, electrical charge rate, engine load, horsepower, fuel/air mixture, etc.

Last I heard only trouble codes reported by your PCM is misfire on all 6 cylinders ... still the case?

Do you have code reader that will read live data ... you could monitor data such as PCM loop status (open/closed), coolant temp, intake air temp, MAP, ignition advance, throttle position, battery voltage, etc.

I posted pix of my 3.5 vacuum gage setup in post #5 of this thread ... I realize you mentioned your needle was steady but not sure what vacuum level you were seeing at idle:

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=184336

BTW ... if engine is at operating temperature the vacuum gage will very often dip toward 0 as PCM cycles EVAP purge valve to use intake vacuum to "draw" fuel fumes from EVAP carbon canister.

Did you notice these vacuum dips - and idle level changes - when gage was attached?

You might want to make sure plumbing between purge valve and carbon canister is intact.

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Old 03-06-2017, 10:39 AM   #20
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Default Re: 2004 Vue red line misfire frustration

I don't have a reader that shows live data. Also I didn't connect the gauge up like you did in the pic. I only had it connected to where the purge valve went into the manifold. Didn't have the purge valve connected. I'll try it your way when I get home. Thanks.

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