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Old 02-28-2014, 04:52 PM   #1
Carbon.Beatz
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Default Traction Control Option

This is a long shot and honestly I doubt it works this way but I may as well ask.
I have a 2000 Saturn LS2 that I've had since August and I finally did some reading. I read that ABS and Traction Control were optional on the 2000 LS2/LW2 models.
I have ABS and there is a spot on the dash above the radio where another button can go. Assuming that is where the Traction Control button would go, is it possible to purchase the button and link it up to wherever it needs to be or is it truly more complex or just overall not possible due to needing other parts/requirements?

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Old 02-28-2014, 08:05 PM   #2
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2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Traction Control Option

Without referring to the service manual (4 or 6 cyl?), all ABS systems in second generation ABS systems allowed traction control as another feature. Traction control cannot work by itself because it needs the ABS system to operate. Programming is the minimum necessary to have t/c work. The pushbutton t/c light for the L-series only allowed disabling t/c; in the L-series, the t/c light would be lit when ignition is ON and automatically enable t/c when accelerating on slippery surfaces - t/c would literally remove throttle control electronically from the pedal and attempt to reduce engine power and/or apply braking, if necessary, to slow down the spinning wheel that's going faster than the other drive wheel. Pushing the t/c button turns off t/c and the light to allow a driver full power (and most likely a spinning wheel).

If t/c was not a feature on your car, adding a pushbutton without the wiring and programming to the ABS system wouldn't work. T/c must be programmed previously and isn't added or enabled later.

As it is, traction control has very limited use. Tire spinning doesn't work when there isn't any grip. Traction control attempts to stop useless wheel spinning to allow a tire to grip a slippery surface and help a car move. If limited wheel spin helps to get out of a rut then disabling t/c allows a driver to use engine power any way he/she feels will work, tire spinning and all.

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Old 02-28-2014, 08:25 PM   #3
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Default Re: Traction Control Option

Alright that's fine. I was just wondering. It's the V6 automatic. Thanks for the confirmation.

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Old 02-28-2014, 10:17 PM   #4
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Default Re: Traction Control Option

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbon.Beatz View Post
This is a long shot and honestly I doubt it works this way but I may as well ask.
I have a 2000 Saturn LS2 that I've had since August and I finally did some reading. I read that ABS and Traction Control were optional on the 2000 LS2/LW2 models.
I have ABS and there is a spot on the dash above the radio where another button can go. Assuming that is where the Traction Control button would go, is it possible to purchase the button and link it up to wherever it needs to be or is it truly more complex or just overall not possible due to needing other parts/requirements?
Short story short I would say take your VIN to a GM dealer and check with them to see if yours had ABS/Trac on it. My old 2000 LS2 had ABS/Trac equiped but you need to go to the Dealer to verify what options yours had.

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Old 03-02-2014, 07:04 PM   #5
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2000 L-Series 2.2L Sedan
2000 L-Series 2.2L Wagon
Default Re: Traction Control Option

I don't have ABS or TC on either of the L's. But I do have this on one other car, a Saab 9-5 (2005 Aero Sportwagon). The TC gets switched off when it is slippery. Why? It is so intrusive that it causes the engine to go to idle while you REALLY WANT TO GET GOING. Even with your foot flat on the floor. This has placed me in dangerous situations a couple of times. That is, before I learned to shut the damned thing off. Spend your money on good winter tires instead.

In general, I dislike having the computer drive the car. One of the things I really like about the LS1 is that is has a cable operated throttle and manual transmission. The throttle response is instant. Not a fraction of a second later after the computer has received your throttle command, processed it, issued a command to the throttle body motor, and the motor opens the throttle. The same applies to the transmission. If I am planning a pass or lane change, I can downshift before the traffic opening and nail the throttle for instant response. The AT seems to take a while to decide that I need to accelerate.

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Old 03-02-2014, 10:23 PM   #6
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Default Re: Traction Control Option

The TC is not as great as one would expect... when I start the car, I turn it off. When we got some snow, I tried using it. When I would to to move from a stop, the wheel would spin, TC would cut back the throttle and I would lose momentum. Ended out turning it off, fluttering the gas to use a bit of wheel spin to gain momentum.

...
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Old 03-04-2014, 09:09 AM   #7
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Default Re: Traction Control Option

The TC system requires a different valve body and ABS modulator block than the standard ABS equipped cars.

The standard ABS modulator block has one high pressure circuit and 4 bi-state valves, the TC version has 6 valves and two high pressure circuits. No additional programming is needed, as the firmware is written into the modulator block's controller and the request to dial back engine torque is satisfied on the CAN bus. On an ABS equipped car the cabling for the switch should all be there, you'd just have to swap in the TC modulator block with controller.

As mentioned the TC on these cars is rubbish and for a car designed and built in 2000 to not come with standard ABS is a laughable joke. Even the poverty spec Vectra-B that this car is based on had ABS as standard: in 1996.

Chris...

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Old 03-04-2014, 03:40 PM   #8
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2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
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Default Re: Traction Control Option

Quote:
Originally Posted by quiksc2 View Post
The TC is not as great as one would expect... when I start the car, I turn it off. When we got some snow, I tried using it. When I would to to move from a stop, the wheel would spin, TC would cut back the throttle and I would lose momentum. Ended out turning it off, fluttering the gas to use a bit of wheel spin to gain momentum.
What a load of BS ... loose momentum...spinning your tires is the reason why you loose momentum and direction. More wishful thinking again. ABS/Trac is a god send. The owner fails to know how to use or drive with ABS that is the only reason why the make such false claims. Without TC you would just spin the tires and go either left or right regardless of what momentum you have. With TC you have engine management and it keeps in in a straight line and if you lead foot that is the reason why TC stops you from spinning and loosing traction why would it say TC aka Traction Control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboZutek View Post
The TC system requires a different valve body and ABS modulator block than the standard ABS equipped cars.

The standard ABS modulator block has one high pressure circuit and 4 bi-state valves, the TC version has 6 valves and two high pressure circuits. No additional programming is needed, as the firmware is written into the modulator block's controller and the request to dial back engine torque is satisfied on the CAN bus. On an ABS equipped car the cabling for the switch should all be there, you'd just have to swap in the TC modulator block with controller.
Very wishful thinking again. There are more parts involved then you would think from hardware to software to electronics that work in symphony to make ABS/TC work as one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboZutek View Post
As mentioned the TC on these cars is rubbish and for a car designed and built in 2000 to not come with standard ABS is a laughable joke. Even the poverty spec Vectra-B that this car is based on had ABS as standard: in 1996.

Chris...
Also it was wasn't sold from what I can read in the USA so that talk about buying a Vectra-B is just baseless to start with. Why you think they didn't have ABS because people didn't want them how black and white could it be. Sure it was a money maker for them but then again people thought they were better then ABS as it turns out the ABS far better safer when braking. My prior 2000 LS2 had ABS/TC and that was something I never hard in my previous vehicles and I can say its benefits out weight any myths one likes to say ABS/TC is rubbish. If one doesn't know how to drive a vehicle with ABS/TC then they should stop driving on the road and take a Taxi instead.

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Old 03-04-2014, 04:19 PM   #9
TurboZutek
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Default Re: Traction Control Option

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Originally Posted by Russet View Post
Very wishful thinking again. There are more parts involved then you would think from hardware to software to electronics that work in symphony to make ABS/TC work as one.
Really? Tell us about that? What else, specifically is required Russet? You seem to know a lot about it so fill us in!

I've assisted on this retrofit on the Vectra-B and installed ABS only into cars with failed blocks that were TC, there is no additional hardware and the control electronics and software is built into the ABS modulator block.

You can swap the blocks and you won't get a single code, as the controller on the block is responsible for setting codes and flagging the CEL lamp, so in changing the block you change the whole system: programming and all.



The TC block controller is slightly larger, but they are both 100% pin compatible. The pipes that route to the brake callipers are the same and there is no additional electrical or sensor equipment installed on a car with TC, other than the additional switch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TGwY5s3Kuo <<--- a look at the controller, modulator block and pump for anyone who's interested.

Given the fact that the braking system is identical to the L series, I'd think there shouldn't be much of a problem swapping back or forth if you wanted to.

Also, I don't do wishful thinking or running my mouth when I don't know: I deal in fact wherever possible. Try it sometime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russet View Post
Also it was wasn't sold from what I can read in the USA so that talk about buying a Vectra-B is just baseless to start with.
Baseless? The L series is BASED on the Vectra B. It's essentially the same car except it's been hit with the ugly stick, dipped in plastic like a toffee apple and had costs cut to such a degree that it was probably Saturn's biggest failure.

I'm surprised someone as keen to run their mouth as you seem to be didn't know that?

I've owned and worked on both cars, in North America and in the UK (for over 10 years) so I'm uniquely placed to comment on the differences between them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russet View Post
Why you think they didn't have ABS because people didn't want them how black and white could it be.
Uh, how many budget family cars at the time had ABS in North America? Very few, except imports. So how did North Americans know they didn't want ABS, exactly?

Did having ABS at that point in time cut into Jag, Merc, Volvo and BMW's sales? No, quite the opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russet View Post
If one doesn't know how to drive a vehicle with ABS/TC then they should stop driving on the road and take a Taxi instead.
The TC on the L200 is a first generation system and it is garbage (it was slated by the European motoring press for its lack of utility and Jeremy Clarkson reviewed it as 'the pointless button') and was quietly dropped from all models until the Vectra C was announced with the new system.

I'd guess that it was only installed on North American cars because it was cheap and lots of parts were lying around.

As a feature GM could make money from it was OK, as a usable traction control system it was utterly pitiful, based on early 1990's technology and about as useful for keeping your car moving in adverse conditions as prayer or positive thinking.

http://www.migweb.co.uk/forums/other...n-control.html

Utter. Garbage.

Chris...

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Old 03-05-2014, 12:13 AM   #10
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Default Re: Traction Control Option

How is the TC NOT crap? All it does it cut throttle! When I want less throttle, I take my foot of the pedal. I have NO problem with the ABS. Antilock brakes are NOT the same thing as traction control. The 'traction control' is just so they could put it on the sticker as an 'added feature' like better cars have. Except theirs actually uses the ABS to brake on the spinning wheel, transferring power to the wheel that HAS traction.

...
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Old 03-05-2014, 08:14 PM   #11
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Default Re: Traction Control Option

Wow is this post ever getting ugly... how ever, I'm chiming in regardless of whos going to get butt hurt over this...

The traction control is garbage. Despite the theory of transferring power to the wheel that has grip is a very sound idea, it doesn't work well at all on these cars PERIOD!

Let me give an example as I have experience of getting into a situation where traction control nearly got me into big trouble. I was attempting to cross a double lane, one direction road to merge into traffic on the opposite side going the opposite way. The ground was slightly wet and the oil from the roads had seeped up. I got the car rolling, wheels started slipping, traction control kicked in and any forward motion let up as brakes where being applied. The computer couldn't react fast enough to compensate for which wheel was garbing and slipping. What other MAJOR problem this does and where the forward momentum part comes in, is that is disrupts the balance of the car. As the brakes and engine are stopping and turning the wheel how ever fast it does it, cause a rocking motion in the car. And given that i have an aftermarket suspension on my car and low profile tires, it's much more apparent. Also, try using a clutch when that crap starts activating and see how fun it is when your feathering both pedal. And I dare you to tell me that I don't know how to use a clutch or this is going to get a lot more personal than mods are going to allow.

I've spent many hours and many miles dealing with the Canadian winter this year, maybe the worst we've seen in a long time. With a manual transmission and traction control the only thing I use it for is to make noise. Whether anyone knows this or not, when the engine revs get high enough, it doesn't or isn't apparent to me that the ABS engages. Rather it is a rev limiter that cuts spark and/or fuel. How do I know this? Well a 2.25" header back straight exhaust split down to a dual 2 inch y pipe makes an awful lot of noise for there to be just ABS working.

As far as the ABS system working for the intent to stop, it works and allows for more controlled stops. Is it better with or without? Well I try to maintain a proper distance to not to need it and drive for the conditions. I don't mind having the ABS but I wouldn't miss it either.


This got way off topic, but if you really want traction control, there has been come info posted above, I suggest perhaps PM'ing the people who have responded appropriately to your question to gain sufficient information on any type of conversion.

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Old 03-05-2014, 10:58 PM   #12
TurboZutek
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Default Re: Traction Control Option

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostman View Post
What other MAJOR problem this does and where the forward momentum part comes in, is that is disrupts the balance of the car. As the brakes and engine are stopping and turning the wheel how ever fast it does it, cause a rocking motion in the car.
Another problem unique to the system is the way that the TC cuts the power. On a 'real' TC system, a fly by wire throttle is used to bring the engine power down slightly while the wheels are slipping. On our cars, we still have cable throttles, so GM did a horrible bodge job of making the ECU cut spark and fuel to get the power reduction.

The result is an engine that doesn't know what hit it. When the fuel and spark swing back it takes precious milliseconds to recover and the plenum and manifold is FULL of accelerated air that the engine isn't ready to drink yet! If you watch the O2 sensor AFR's at this point, they go crazy. Can't be good for, well, anything!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostman View Post
Also, try using a clutch when that crap starts activating and see how fun it is when your feathering both pedal.
I agree mate, that's the big reason that GM fitted a 'traction control system OFF' button to Manual cars sold in Europe. The TC freaking out like a kid on a sugar high makes feathering the clutch to control wheel-spin a nightmare.

Chris...

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