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Old 07-15-2019, 12:24 PM   #1
Gileddb
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Dizzy Intermittent Starting Issue

2002 SL2 with 150k miles. Recent work history includes a replacement of front 02 sensor and a cleaning of the EGR valve, both prompted by check engine lights that have not returned since the work was done. New starter about a year ago. No other current codes pending or logged in the computer.

EGR valve cleaning was done about ten days ago.

Last week as I go back to my car after about minutes to run my kiddo into day camp, car tries to start but can't. Turn key all the way off, try to start again, bam, off and running.

This has happened three times since. Every time when she has been sitting for less than 5 minutes or so. She has started easily when trying to start her back to back AND has started a couple times even when sitting less than 5 minutes. So far she has not failed to start if sitting longer.

I've read a million posts about everything from CPS to ECTS to fuel pump relays and so on. Just caught another post that it could still be the EGR, just not throwing a code. Read a couple folks claim bad gas could do this... ( I just put some way better gas in the tank but that was a day or so ago)

So I took a video. Had my family wondering why I kept recording starting the car but maybe it will pay off. Hoping folks can take a look and let me know what they think.

I broke up the url as apparently I haven't made enough posts yet...

h t t p s://youtu. be/1cV9My9SeM4

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Old 07-15-2019, 01:22 PM   #2
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Default Re: Intermittent Starting Issue

https://youtu.be/1cV9My9SeM4

I don't think that is an EGR problem. Sounds like a weak crank due to lack of juice to me. I'd check the battery connections before I did anything. This includes both side posts, ground connection to block and chassis, power connection to starter and under hood junction box. After that I'd look at the battery.

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Old 07-15-2019, 06:13 PM   #3
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Default Re: Intermittent Starting Issue

So looked at connections, tightened the battery positive as it had a very small amount of tension it could take.

I'll take the battery in and have it scanned but it is only six months old.

Does it make sense that a bad connection or battery would lead to this issue only occasionally?

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Old 07-15-2019, 07:45 PM   #4
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Default Re: Intermittent Starting Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gileddb View Post
So looked at connections, tightened the battery positive as it had a very small amount of tension it could take.

I'll take the battery in and have it scanned but it is only six months old.

Does it make sense that a bad connection or battery would lead to this issue only occasionally?
Loose/dirty connections don't carry current as well. Disconnect and clean the battery terminals and for the extra mile, disconnect and clean the battery connections at the starter and alternator. I recently had to pull my starter to repair it and the battery terminal connections on it were quite corroded/dirty.

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Old 07-15-2019, 08:03 PM   #5
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Default Re: Intermittent Starting Issue

I'm guessing that you need a new fuel pressure regulator. If you can consistently start your car by turning your key to the Run position just before Ignition, waiting for the fuel pump buzzing sound to stop, and then turning the key to ignition, then you have a leaking check valve in the fuel pressure regulator that slowly bleeds out pressure overnight.

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Old 07-15-2019, 08:28 PM   #6
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Default Re: Intermittent Starting Issue

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Originally Posted by Kaervak View Post
Loose/dirty connections don't carry current as well. Disconnect and clean the battery terminals and for the extra mile, disconnect and clean the battery connections at the starter and alternator. I recently had to pull my starter to repair it and the battery terminal connections on it were quite corroded/dirty.
On the battery they are clean for sure. Have been since I bought the car (couple years now) I'll check at the other ends.

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Old 07-15-2019, 08:31 PM   #7
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Default Re: Intermittent Starting Issue

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Originally Posted by edlee View Post
I'm guessing that you need a new fuel pressure regulator. If you can consistently start your car by turning your key to the Run position just before Ignition, waiting for the fuel pump buzzing sound to stop, and then turning the key to ignition, then you have a leaking check valve in the fuel pressure regulator that slowly bleeds out pressure overnight.
I will have to test if that is the case but wouldn't that mean the first start of the day would be the problem child? This is usually the 2nd or 3rd of the day at a minimum?

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Old 07-15-2019, 08:39 PM   #8
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Default Re: Intermittent Starting Issue

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I will have to test if that is the case but wouldn't that mean the first start of the day would be the problem child? This is usually the 2nd or 3rd of the day at a minimum?
I agree with you. My '98 had a sick starter that would get worse as it warmed up. This could be your issue. I have had many bad aftermarket starters and some lasted less than a year. Thank God for the manual transmission. If you ever replace it again, go DB Electric. Cheap and awesome.

https://www.dbelectrical.com/product...02-saturn.html

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Old 07-15-2019, 08:49 PM   #9
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Default Re: Intermittent Starting Issue

If the problem is intermittent, then it can be hard to diagnose, unless you can consistently start your car as I described.

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Old 07-15-2019, 09:08 PM   #10
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Default Re: Intermittent Starting Issue

Most likely its your CPS. Cheap and easy sensor to replace. Mine goes bad every few years with very similar symptoms. Letting the car sit and cool almost always allows a successful start. Just get one that has a lifetime replacement warranty.

In the hot weather, it's more likely to fail due to thermal expansion of the internal electrical connections. It's a very common failure.

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Old 07-16-2019, 02:18 AM   #11
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Default Re: Intermittent Starting Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by nealt View Post
Most likely its your CPS. Cheap and easy sensor to replace. Mine goes bad every few years with very similar symptoms. Letting the car sit and cool almost always allows a successful start. Just get one that has a lifetime replacement warranty.

In the hot weather, it's more likely to fail due to thermal expansion of the internal electrical connections. It's a very common failure.
I guess I am confused about the CPS as it seems like some folks say I should have other problems while the car is running while others seem to tie it to a weird start issue.

Regardless if the CPS is the culprit my understanding is I pretty much have to:
A. Get her off the ground.
B. Take of the starter.

I could do B I guess, if I had resources to do A...but I don't have good access to flat land or jack stands and I have heard taking off the starter is a chore.

I see richpin has a video to test that the CPS is functioning. Is it possible for a CPS to pass his test but till cause the trouble described?

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Old 07-16-2019, 02:52 AM   #12
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Default Re: Intermittent Starting Issue

I have very similar problems currently. Except for my issue it has issues starting up when I let it sit for awhile. I have a new fuel pump and filter coming in since I JUST replaced the faulty starter that I thought was the problem (still needed replacing anyways!) and had no luck with the intermittent no start issue. Since everything on this car I've replaced has been pretty much OEM I have no doubt that the fuel pump and filter are 18 years old. I'll let you know how it goes.

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Old 07-16-2019, 08:03 AM   #13
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Default Re: Intermittent Starting Issue

Jack stands:
https://www.harborfreight.com/3-ton-...nds-61196.html

Walmart has them too. Or find a friend with them.

...
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'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
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Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
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Old 07-16-2019, 08:57 AM   #14
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Default Re: Intermittent Starting Issue

When it fails to start, it cranks normally, just does not "catch" and start/run?

I would check the positive cable in the middle - you sometimes get corrosion in the middle even though the ends look clean. Grab the cable in a couple spots in the middle, bend /flex it slightly. If it feels "crunchy", replace or clean with baking soda solution. I don't think this is your problem if the cranking sounds normal and you have good spark, but it costs $0 to check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gileddb View Post
I guess I am confused about the CPS as it seems like some folks say I should have other problems while the car is running while others seem to tie it to a weird start issue.
From what I have read, it fails when hot - so, car will shut off while running, then will crank but not start while hot. After CPS cools off, you can start and run again normally for a while.

I suppose it is possible in your normal driving that your car gets just hot enough to cause the CPS to temporarily fail after sitting a few minutes (heat soak), but then within a few more minutes, cool off enough to start. And it doesn't get hot enough to fail and stall while driving that distance. It would be a weird coincidence, but stranger things have happened.
Quote:
Regardless if the CPS is the culprit my understanding is I pretty much have to:
A. Get her off the ground.
B. Take of the starter.

I could do B I guess, if I had resources to do A...but I don't have good access to flat land or jack stands and I have heard taking off the starter is a chore.
Some folks have changed the CPS by parking one side on a curb to raise it. You can put a large piece of cardboard under the car to slide under more easily.

Taking the starter off is simple, two bolts and you are done. Putting it back on is hard because you are trying to put the top bolt into its hole blindly and using a socket with extension to hold the bolt. Richpin's starter video shows him using a mirror to locate the top bolt hole, but I've never been able to see it. I used a piece of duct tape to hold the bolt into the socket (it kept falling out while trying to put it into the hole)

Quote:
I see richpin has a video to test that the CPS is functioning. Is it possible for a CPS to pass his test but till cause the trouble described?
Does the test involve immediately checking for spark when it fails to start? It's a pretty definitive test - you will either have spark or not. If you have good spark, we can move on to fuel

This will help with the CPS location

http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/sho...ations/cat/500 (CPS callout is at lower left of diagram)

http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/sho...ensors/cat/500

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Old 07-16-2019, 09:47 AM   #15
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Default Re: Intermittent Starting Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlayZombi View Post
I have very similar problems currently. Except for my issue it has issues starting up when I let it sit for awhile. I have a new fuel pump and filter coming in since I JUST replaced the faulty starter that I thought was the problem (still needed replacing anyways!) and had no luck with the intermittent no start issue. Since everything on this car I've replaced has been pretty much OEM I have no doubt that the fuel pump and filter are 18 years old. I'll let you know how it goes.
I wouldn’t go randomly replacing parts. Measure the fuel pressure at start up. The aftermarket pump you’re replacing it with is probably less reliable than the old pump.
It’s pretty straight forward to diagnose a fuel pump vs a starter.

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Old 07-16-2019, 10:33 AM   #16
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Default Re: Intermittent Starting Issue

"If it feels "crunchy", replace or clean with baking soda solution". This cleaning would only apply to the visible ends and no where else.

Since that positive cable has an intact PVC jacket, if it were crunchy, there is no way to ever clean that middle with anything, unless y'all were to slice it open (not recommended).

Just replace that cable with a new one.

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Old 07-16-2019, 11:02 AM   #17
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Default Re: Intermittent Starting Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiex191 View Post
Jack stands:


Walmart has them too. Or find a friend with them.
Yes yes, I know where to buy them. I'm the most car oriented of my friends so no extended network of friends with tools, I am the friend.

My main issue is flat land. A buddy just offered his driveway. If this seems like the culprit I know how to throw money at the problem. Just want to be on the right track.

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Old 07-16-2019, 11:06 AM   #18
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Default Re: Intermittent Starting Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by alordofchaos View Post
When it fails to start, it cranks normally, just does not "catch" and start/run?

I would check the positive cable in the middle - you sometimes get corrosion in the middle even though the ends look clean. Grab the cable in a couple spots in the middle, bend /flex it slightly. If it feels "crunchy", replace or clean with baking soda solution. I don't think this is your problem if the cranking sounds normal and you have good spark, but it costs $0 to check.

From what I have read, it fails when hot - so, car will shut off while running, then will crank but not start while hot. After CPS cools off, you can start and run again normally for a while.

I suppose it is possible in your normal driving that your car gets just hot enough to cause the CPS to temporarily fail after sitting a few minutes (heat soak), but then within a few more minutes, cool off enough to start. And it doesn't get hot enough to fail and stall while driving that distance. It would be a weird coincidence, but stranger things have happened.
Some folks have changed the CPS by parking one side on a curb to raise it. You can put a large piece of cardboard under the car to slide under more easily.

Taking the starter off is simple, two bolts and you are done. Putting it back on is hard because you are trying to put the top bolt into its hole blindly and using a socket with extension to hold the bolt. Richpin's starter video shows him using a mirror to locate the top bolt hole, but I've never been able to see it. I used a piece of duct tape to hold the bolt into the socket (it kept falling out while trying to put it into the hole)

Does the test involve immediately checking for spark when it fails to start? It's a pretty definitive test - you will either have spark or not. If you have good spark, we can move on to fuel

This will help with the CPS location
Yeah I don't know how to describe the start, that is why I posted the video honestly.

I know where the CPS is but I'll admit I am daunted and without knowing for sure its the issue as it is more akin to throwing down for some jack stands and the parts AND getting underneath a car for the first time. Not just badda bing, in and done. I don't have that confidence yet.

Hey, first time for everything. I'll double check the cable and report back when I know more.

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Old 07-16-2019, 06:14 PM   #19
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Default Re: Intermittent Starting Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gileddb View Post
Yes yes, I know where to buy them. I'm the most car oriented of my friends so no extended network of friends with tools, I am the friend.

My main issue is flat land. A buddy just offered his driveway. If this seems like the culprit I know how to throw money at the problem. Just want to be on the right track.
Waiex191, sorry about the terseness of my message this morning. I had a rough start to the day and that permeated my typing. I appreciate you pointing me in the right direction.

Cables are in good shape. Honestly for all her chipped paint and torn up interior my engine compartment is in great shape. I think a fair amount of her cables and stuff were either replaced, restored or were actually well cared for before I got her.

No hiccups on starts at all today after tightening that positive terminal. I guess I now just need to let some more time pass and see what comes. Thanks everyone for the ideas.

To be continued?

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Old 07-16-2019, 08:17 PM   #20
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Default Re: Intermittent Starting Issue

No worries!

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Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018

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