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Old 08-10-2020, 09:58 AM   #1
SalemCat
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Default Can I use ABS MASTER CYLINDER in NON-ABS SW2 ?

My 1998 SW2, w/o ABS, has no brakes.

The Pedal goes to the floor.

I figure it is either the Master Cylinder, or the Lines.

Oddly, I observed no puddles of fluid. Could be I missed one.

Master Cylinders on Rock Auto are inexpensive, but most are for ABS.

QUESTION: Will an ABS version work in my NON-ABS car ?

Advice ?
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Old 08-10-2020, 10:09 AM   #2
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Default Re: Can I use ABS MASTER CYLINDER in NON-ABS SW2 ?

I wouldn't do it. I counted 9 with ABS, and 6 without on Rock Auto. I've been buying Centric parts for my Saturns and they offer two different Centric/non-ABS master cylinders.

Honestly the brake lines are always guilty until proven innocent. I'd top off the fluid, park where you can see puddles, pump the crap out of the brakes while in one spot, and verify there are no leaks. It sometimes takes a lot of pumps before you see a puddle.
...
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'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
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Old 08-10-2020, 10:27 AM   #3
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Default Re: Can I use ABS MASTER CYLINDER in NON-ABS SW2 ?

The ABS MC is only drilled and tapped for 2 lines, the non ABS MC is drilled and tapped for 4 lines. Should be an easy fix with the correct t-taps and attaching the lines correctly but the added time & expense of the t-taps and getting/making extra lines means it would be just better to get the correct MC in the first place. You can not use just any t-tap, they have to have the internal flaring for brake lines.


Given the lack of ABS and current lack of puddles on the ground I'd get 2 new wheel cylinders for the rear drum brakes and 2x 12" of brake line and the proper flaring kit. Virtually guaranteed the rear brake lines will be rusted to both the nut and the wheel cylinder and will just break upon removal.
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Old 08-10-2020, 01:47 PM   #4
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Default Re: Can I use ABS MASTER CYLINDER in NON-ABS SW2 ?

If you do replace your brake lines, I recommend nicopp. Here is what you need.
Nicopp:
https://www.amazon.com/Nickel-Copper.../dp/B00HFL8BGM

Flare nuts:
https://www.amazon.com/Metric-Brake-.../dp/B01DAQ0O9W

ISO bubble flare tool:
https://www.amazon.com/OTC-4504-Stin.../dp/B0015PMZMU

I've done 2 saturns and a Buick.
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=230898
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=234273
https://buickforums.com/forums/threa...century.52293/

The brake stuff is in there somewhere.
...
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Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
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Old 08-10-2020, 02:16 PM   #5
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Default Re: Can I use ABS MASTER CYLINDER in NON-ABS SW2 ?

Note that I linked a 50' roll of nicopp. If you are careful you can do both rears with a 25' roll. I prefer to have some margin and also enough to do the fronts too.
...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
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Old 08-10-2020, 02:46 PM   #6
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Default Re: Can I use ABS MASTER CYLINDER in NON-ABS SW2 ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
The ABS MC is only drilled and tapped for 2 lines, the non ABS MC is drilled and tapped for 4 lines. Should be an easy fix with the correct t-taps and attaching the lines correctly but the added time & expense of the t-taps and getting/making extra lines means it would be just better to get the correct MC in the first place. You can not use just any t-tap, they have to have the internal flaring for brake lines.


Given the lack of ABS and current lack of puddles on the ground I'd get 2 new wheel cylinders for the rear drum brakes and 2x 12" of brake line and the proper flaring kit. Virtually guaranteed the rear brake lines will be rusted to both the nut and the wheel cylinder and will just break upon removal.
The hard lines go to the rubber lines, not to the wheel cylinders. I'm a fan of replacing the rubber lines too. The rubber lines go to the wheel cylinders or calipers with banjo bolts.

No puddles could be because the fluid was pumped out on the road somewhere. That's why my technique is to top off the MC and pump it a lot in one spot - it's probably the lines.
...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
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Old 08-10-2020, 10:58 PM   #7
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Default Re: Can I use ABS MASTER CYLINDER in NON-ABS SW2 ?

My local shop (fairly honest), noticed a puddle on the ground by my Left Rear Wheel.

Sure enough, same situation on my driveway.

It looks like pre-formed NON-ABS lines are impossible, tho ABS Lines are on eBay for $150 - Give or Take.

Advice ?

How much $$$ should I expect to have all Brake Lines replaced ?
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Old 08-11-2020, 09:22 AM   #8
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Default Re: Can I use ABS MASTER CYLINDER in NON-ABS SW2 ?

How comfortable are you doing mechanical work? If you would be comfortable installing premade lines, it is not far to go to fabricate lines. Especially in nicopp, it is super easy to work with. Just practice making flares on a couple pieces of scrap.

You will need a tube cutter also:
https://www.amazon.com/RIDGID-32975-...7152002&sr=8-3

I've seen people ripped off on this forum for nearly a grand on a poorly done job.
...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018
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Old 08-11-2020, 11:04 AM   #9
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Default Re: Can I use ABS MASTER CYLINDER in NON-ABS SW2 ?

I gotta ask... did the trusted shop confirm that the leak is from a rusted hard line, not a hose/fitting or brake piston seal?
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Old 08-11-2020, 02:39 PM   #10
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Default Re: Can I use ABS MASTER CYLINDER in NON-ABS SW2 ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
I gotta ask... did the trusted shop confirm that the leak is from a rusted hard line, not a hose/fitting or brake piston seal?
The shop is very busy, and has not even put it up on the lift yet.

My problem is I really don't like doing work on my back, under the car.

If the estimate seems crazy, I'll make some calls.

I can't drive it - but it can be towed.

And the Emergency Brake (Drums on the rear) works well.

I suppose preformed ABS Lines will not work on a non-ABS SW2 ?
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Old 08-11-2020, 03:48 PM   #11
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Default Re: Can I use ABS MASTER CYLINDER in NON-ABS SW2 ?

I'm thinking a leak right near a wheel is more likely not a rusted line; probably the brake piston is leaking. Why worry about how to replace a hard line until you know one is bad?

Getting back to your original symptom (pedal goes to floor):

There are two hydraulic circuits there, for the pedal to go all the way to the floor, two lines would have had to rusted out simultaneously, or two hoses fail, or two piston seals fail; again simultaneously. Not likely. The other possibility is that the master cylinder is bad. That could let the pedal go all the way to the floor with a single failure.

If that shop is any good, they will quickly be able to trouble-shoot this. Non-ABS brakes are pretty simple.
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Old 08-11-2020, 06:16 PM   #12
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Default Re: Can I use ABS MASTER CYLINDER in NON-ABS SW2 ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
There are two hydraulic circuits there, for the pedal to go all the way to the floor, two lines would have had to rusted out simultaneously, or two hoses fail, or two piston seals fail; again simultaneously.
I've had single brake failures where the pedal goes all the way to the floor. Like,every one. There is still some braking but the pedal goes to the floor despite the independent hydraulic systems.

I'm putting my $1 bet on a rusted line.

I would not use ABS preformed lines on a non-ABS car.

Edit: the parts to replace all hard lines, hoses, and wheel cylinders are about $100 from Rock Auto. Inflate that to $200 and add the same amount of labor - I'd say you should be able to get the whole thing done correctly for $400. That's my estimate. The trick is getting them to do it correctly and to not overcharge. Good luck!
...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018

Last edited by Waiex191; 08-11-2020 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 08-11-2020, 06:37 PM   #13
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Default Re: Can I use ABS MASTER CYLINDER in NON-ABS SW2 ?

If the pedal goes to the floor with a failure of just one system, the other system is in poor shape; maybe even inop.
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Old 08-11-2020, 10:26 PM   #14
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Default Re: Can I use ABS MASTER CYLINDER in NON-ABS SW2 ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiex191 View Post
I've had single brake failures where the pedal goes all the way to the floor. Like,every one. There is still some braking but the pedal goes to the floor despite the independent hydraulic systems.

I'm putting my $1 bet on a rusted line.

I would not use ABS preformed lines on a non-ABS car.

Edit: the parts to replace all hard lines, hoses, and wheel cylinders are about $100 from Rock Auto. Inflate that to $200 and add the same amount of labor - I'd say you should be able to get the whole thing done correctly for $400. That's my estimate. The trick is getting them to do it correctly and to not overcharge. Good luck!
$400 would be a bargain.

I've had nightmares about losing the brakes - and sure enough - with good reason.

I also have a '98 SW2, and a '95 SW2.

I'll be junking the '95 this summer, which is actually stupid of me. Other than a rusted Exhaust, it's the best of the three.

Anyhow, the '98 lost its brakes last Fall. This evening I added a full pint of Brake Fluid, with made no difference. I'm betting the system is entirely dry.

If I can get all lines replaced on the '96 for $400, the '98 is next.
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Old 08-11-2020, 10:49 PM   #15
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Default Re: Can I use ABS MASTER CYLINDER in NON-ABS SW2 ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
I gotta ask... did the trusted shop confirm that the leak is from a rusted hard line, not a hose/fitting or brake piston seal?
At one time I had a pic of the PROPER installment of the Front Rubber Brake Hoses.

They can curl the RIGHT way, or the WRONG way.

I do know my Right Front Hose was installed the wrong way (not by me).

And not sure about the Left, as when I change the oil I always remove the Right Wheel, and not the left.

Does anyone have pics on the proper curl to these hoses ? I cannot find the info now, and AllDataDiy is useless.
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Old 08-12-2020, 10:33 AM   #16
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Default Re: Can I use ABS MASTER CYLINDER in NON-ABS SW2 ?

I know I've posted those pics for somebody before, but I can't find them. Here is my secret trick, but don't tell anybody - I look at the other Saturn when I'm replacing hoses on one of them.
...
Bryan Cotton
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Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
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Old 08-12-2020, 12:52 PM   #17
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Default Re: Can I use ABS MASTER CYLINDER in NON-ABS SW2 ?

Orienting the hose's is VERY complicated

If they look like a teacup handle (or any human going "bawk bawk bawk") they're going to die....if they're hidden then they're safe.

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Old 08-12-2020, 01:02 PM   #18
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Default Re: Can I use ABS MASTER CYLINDER in NON-ABS SW2 ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiex191 View Post
I know I've posted those pics for somebody before, but I can't find them. Here is my secret trick, but don't tell anybody - I look at the other Saturn when I'm replacing hoses on one of them.
I think the Front Hose needs to loop to the Rear.
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Old 08-12-2020, 10:42 PM   #19
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Default Re: Can I use ABS MASTER CYLINDER in NON-ABS SW2 ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiex191 View Post
I've had single brake failures where the pedal goes all the way to the floor. Like,every one. There is still some braking but the pedal goes to the floor despite the independent hydraulic systems.

I'm putting my $1 bet on a rusted line.

I would not use ABS preformed lines on a non-ABS car.

Edit: the parts to replace all hard lines, hoses, and wheel cylinders are about $100 from Rock Auto. Inflate that to $200 and add the same amount of labor - I'd say you should be able to get the whole thing done correctly for $400. That's my estimate. The trick is getting them to do it correctly and to not overcharge. Good luck!
Well, I got my car back for $405.

Not entirely displeased - tho all they did was replace two lines.

Now that my '96 is good, I asked around and found a local shop, highly rated, that will replace two lines on my'98 for $200 !!

Totally trying them out next.
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