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Old 03-22-2008, 10:07 AM   #21
John223
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Default Re: Rotors, anyone?

Hit a hot topic here! Every GM I owned (and a few Hondas in between) from 1994 on had rotor warping issues, getting progressively worse each model year. I had a conversation with a local auto parts dealer (non-chain store) who said that brake parts are what's essentially keeping him in business. Automotive safety devices (airbags, stability control, ABS, etc.) have become better and offered on more models, but it seems the most basic safety device - quality brake components - have been comprimised. I'll post how my new brakes turn out, probably in a month or two when the warpage becomes unbearablle..
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Old 03-23-2008, 03:14 PM   #22
Ryster
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Default Re: Rotors, anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bue05 View Post
Yes, by the way that reminds me get it in and repaired before 12,500 miles or 12 months whichever comes first. otherwise gm/saturn can deny repair of brake(s) system(s) unless previous record or affected by another defect which would cause failure of said device/equipment/etc... but the brake, bakes, braking system is covered 3yr/36,000 miles, the wear and tear items such as brake pads, rotors are only covered 12,500 miles or 12 months whichever comes first. best luck bue05
See GM Corporate Bulletin 00-05-22-002J below.

Brake rotors should be covered under the bumper to bumper warranty.
--------------------
Corporate Bulletin Number 00-05-22-002J is currently available in SI.

Disc Brake Warranty Service and Procedures

Models: 19992008 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks
20032008 HUMMER H2
20062008 HUMMER H3
19992004 Isuzu Light Duty Trucks (Canada Only)
20052008 Saab 9-7X (Canada Only)
19992008 Saturn Vehicles (Canada Only)

__________________________________________________ __________________________
This bulletin is being revised to include the 2008 model year and revise the requirements for
submitting claims using H9709 Brake Burnish. Please discard Corporate
Bulletin Number 00-05-22-002I (Section 05 Brakes).
__________________________________________________ _________________________

For your convenience, this bulletin updates and centralizes all GM's Standard Brake Service Procedures and Policy Guidelines for brake rotor and brake pad service and wear. For additional information, the Service Technical College lists a complete index of available Brake courses. This information can be accessed at www.gmtraining.com > resources > training materials > brakes courseware index. In Canada, refer to Service Know How course 55040.00 and Hydraulic Brake Certification program 15003.16.
Important: PLEASE FAMILIARIZE YOURSELF WITH THESE UPDATES BEFORE PERFORMING YOUR NEXT GM BRAKE SERVICE.

There are five (5) key steps that must be performed to complete a successful brake service:
1. Measure and Document Rotor Thickness* determine rotor refinish/replace
2. Clean Mating Surfaces hub, rotor and wheel
3. Proper Rotor Refinish and Documentation
4. Measure, Document and Correct Lateral Run Out (LRO)** Maximum 0.050 mm (0.002 in)
5. Reassemble with Proper Torque wheel lug nuts

BRAKE PULSATION

Brake pulsation is caused by brake rotor thickness variation. Brake rotor thickness variation causes the piston in the brake caliper, when applied, to "pump" in and out of the caliper housing. The "pumping" effect is transmitted hydraulically to the brake pedal. Brake pulsation concerns may result from two basic conditions:

1. Thickness Variation Caused by Lateral Run Out (LRO). LRO on a brake corner assembly is virtually undetectable unless measured. If the brake
corner is assembled with excessive LRO (greater than 0.050 mm (0.002 in), thickness variation will develop over time and miles. Excessive LRO will
cause the brake pads to wear the brake rotors unevenly, which causes rotor thickness variation. Pulsation that is the result of excessive Lateral Run Out
usually develops in 4,800 16,000 km (3,000 10,000 mi). LRO can be induced when uneven torque is applied to wheel nuts (lug nuts). Improper wheel
tightening after tire rotation, spare tire usage, brake inspection, etc. can be the cause of pulsation. Again, it usually takes 4,800 16,000 km (3,000
10,000 mi) AFTER an event for the condition to surface. The owner or driver does not usually make the connection between the service event and the
awareness of the pulsation. The proper usage of torque wrenches and/or torque sticks (torque limiting sockets) will greatly reduce or eliminate the pulsation
conditions after wheel service events. The improper use of impact wrenches on wheel nuts greatly increases the likelihood of pulsation after wheel service.

The following are examples of pulsation conditions and reimbursement recommendations:

If the customer noticed the condition between 4,800 16,000 km (3,000 10,000 mi) and it gradually got worse, normally the repair would be covered.
The customer may tolerate the condition until it becomes very apparent.

If a customer indicated they had wheel service, ask who performed the service. Then;

If a GM dealer performed the service, consider paying for the repair and then strongly reinforce the use of torque sticks at the dealer.
Two common size torque sticks cover 90% of all GM products. Each technician needs to use torque sticks properly every time the wheel
nuts are tightened.
If the customer had the wheel service done outside of a GM dealership, normally GM would not offer any assistance.

2. Thickness Variation Caused by Brake Rotor Corrosion Rotor corrosion is another form of thickness variation, which can cause a pulsation concern and
can be addressed as follows:

Cosmetic Corrosion:

In most instances rotor corrosion is cosmetic and refinishing the rotor is unnecessary.

Corrosion Pulsation Caused by Thickness Variation (Lot Rot / Low Miles 0321 km (0200 mi):

At times more extensive corrosion can cause pulsation due to thickness variation. This usually happens when the vehicle is parked for long periods of time in humid type conditions and the braking surface area under the pads corrodes at a different rate compared to the rest of the braking surface area. Cleaning up of braking surfaces (burnishing) can be accomplished by 10 15 moderate stops from 56 64 km/h (35 40 mph) with cooling time between stops. If multiple moderate braking stops do not correct this condition, follow the "Brake Rotor Clean-Up Procedure" below.

Corrosion Pulsation Caused by Thickness Variation (without rotor flaking / higher mileage 3,2008,000 km (2,0005,000 mi):
Corrosion Pulsation Caused by Thickness Variation (with rotor flaking / higher mileage 8,000 + km (5,000 + miles) :

At times, more extensive corrosion over time and miles can cause pulsation due to thickness variation (flaking). This flaking is usually a build up, mostly on the rotor material surface, caused by a combination of corrosion, pad material and heat. When rotor measurements are taken, the low areas are usually close to the original rotor thickness (new rotor) measurement and the high areas usually measure more than the original rotor thickness (new rotor) measurement (depending on mileage and normal wear). To correct this condition, follow the "Brake Rotor Clean-up Procedure" described below.

I Q: Is it okay to leave the caliper/pads installed while cutting rotors using an on-car lathe?

A: On-car lathes should never be used with the pads and calipers installed on the vehicle. The debris from cutting the rotors can contaminate the
brake pads/calipers which can lead to other brake concerns and comebacks.

Q: What is the best way to correct for excessive lateral runout on vehicles with hubless rotors?

A: Regardless of the type of lathe used to resurface hubless rotors, on-car or bench lathe, the preferred method to correct for excessive lateral
runout is the Brake Align Runout Correction Plate System. This warranty policy for correction of lateral runout applies to ALL model vehicle,
therefore it is essential to inventory a FULL assortment of Brake Align Correction Plates, and a full assortment of sizes, (.003", .006", and .009").

Q: Is it necessary to measure for LRO on new rotors from GMSPO?

A: All new GM rotors must also be dial indicated after installation. New rotors are NEVER to be resurfaced on any type of lathe.

Q: What labor operation can be used to claim the time for measuring and/or correcting for LRO?

A: Applicable labor operations include the time for performing a final LRO measurement in the base time allowance. Refer to the "Warranty
Information" section of this bulletin in instances where additional time for correcting LRO to meet specification is necessary.

Q : What information needs to be documented on the Repair Order?

A: Any claim that is submitted using the labor operations in this bulletin, must have the Original Rotor Thickness, Refinish Rotor Thickness and
LRO documented on the repair order. For more information, refer to the "Repair Order / Warranty Claim Required Documentation" section of
this bulletin.

All Warranty Repair Orders paid by GM, are subject to review for compliance, documentation of lateral runout measurements and the use of Brake Align Plates and may be debited where the repair does not comply with this procedure.

BRAKE WARRANTY
Brake Rotors:
Brake rotor warranty is covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Bumper-to-Bumper warranty. Reference the vehicle's warranty guide for verification.
Rotors should not be refinished or replaced during normal/routine pad replacement.
Rotors should not be refinished or replaced and is ineffective in correcting brake squeal type noises and/or premature lining wear out.
Rotors should not be refinished or replaced for cosmetic corrosion. Clean up of braking surfaces can be accomplished by 1015 moderate stops
from 5664 km/h (3540 mph) with cooling time between stops.
Rotors should not be refinished or replaced for rotor discoloration/hard spots.
Rotors should be refinished NOT replaced for Customer Pulsation concerns. This condition is a result of rotor thickness variation, usually caused
by LRO (wear induced over time and miles) or corrosion (Lot Rot).
When rotor refinishing, only remove the necessary amount of material from each side of the rotor and note that equal amounts of material do not have
to be removed from both sides on any brake system using a floating caliper.
Rotors should be refinished for severe scoring depth in excess of 1.5 mm (0.060 in).
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Old 03-23-2008, 05:36 PM   #23
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Default Re: Rotors, anyone?

Ryster, Thank you so much for that really great print out on that.. im not sure how you got it?? but that is a great explanation of the warranty on brake(s) and there system(s). Good info, makes sense and i agree with it 100% and it reinforces what i already said! Which was gm warrants rotor(s) and or brake pad/ etc. any wear item on brakes up to 12,500 miles or 12 months unless said warranty did not fix the original or problem persist etc. etc.. here is a clip from your gm warranty posting.. If the customer noticed the condition between 4,800 16,000 km (3,000 10,000 mi) and it gradually got worse, normally the repair would be covered.
The customer may tolerate the condition until it becomes very apparent. Basically from Day one of ownership up to 12 months of ownership or 12,500 miles if you have a rotor that is causing pulsation, or some other brake issue or defect whether in materials, possible wear and tear, LRO, Lot rot, etc. it is covered no questions asked, no problem. However if they resurface it and or replace it and problem continues to exist... based upon replacement of rotor that time frame will restart on said replacement part. same goes for the resurfacing of rotor. (Please do not confuse this with the breaking system which is covered 3/36,000) This is what I was told by GM directly, if there is a defect in the brakes (rotors/pads...) we will or you will have had or found the defect or issue in said part(s) etc. I have been dealing with and had experince with the General Motors/Delco Remy/Saturn rotor(s) since april of 2000 on cavalier,malibu,vue,ion,aura,lumina, and some experince with several buik park avenue, lesabre, from 95,98,99,2001,02,and 03. There is something to be said for the rotors used and or the materials used.. As i said before, as well as others on here.. It appears that as general consumers we can go to local auto parts store, buy a fairly priced set of rotors and pads and go thousands of miles (20,30,40xxxx) with no problem, while others on here myself also included get a GM division made vehicle that goes from day one to 60,70,80,90,100,xxx some odd miles no brake trouble whatsoever, i think those people are the minority and the lucky ones. Two things upset me more than anything on a car or truck,, BRAKES!!! and STEERING! they have to be pretty darn good. sorry for the rant. thanks for that posting though,,good, good info there. p.s. while i understand and agree that driving behavior, styles, and procedures have a huge amount to do with rotor issues, it doesn't hold a candle to the reasoning for the large amount off issues with rotors that consumers have on GM vehicles.. trust me i know, my mother n law, my wife, drive like a brake is bullet proof, wow!! I cringe everytime im in the car with them.. But...neither my n-laws dodge durango or my wifes vue since replacing oem have any troubles....hmmm..bue05
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Old 03-23-2008, 06:00 PM   #24
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Default Re: Rotors, anyone?

This also from the great service info that ryster provided us..

** LRO can be induced when uneven torque is applied to wheel nuts (lug nuts). Improper wheel
tightening after tire rotation, spare tire usage, brake inspection, etc. can be the cause of pulsation. Again, it usually takes 4,800 16,000 km (3,000
10,000 mi) AFTER an event for the condition to surface. The owner or driver does not usually make the connection between the service event and the
awareness of the pulsation. The proper usage of torque wrenches and/or torque sticks (torque limiting sockets) will greatly reduce or eliminate the pulsation
conditions after wheel service events. The improper use of impact wrenches on wheel nuts greatly increases the likelihood of pulsation after wheel service.
How many times have i said this on here or to a shop service advisor. The last time i had a break job done on our 2002 malibu ls was at arnell chevrolet, they rotated and balanced the wheels, breaks were perfect!!! About a week or so went buy, you would put the breaks on i thought the damn wheels were going to fall off. I got a service appointment. (still under factory warranty at the time like 5 to 7,000 miles) guy tells me they charge 40.00 to inspect the brakes, and that if they do the repairs they will refund me the 40.00 and that the rotors are not covered on the warranty after a certain mileage. Wow, i freaked this guy out. I said actually they are covered sir up to 12 months or 12,500 miles, and i said actually i was just here and you rotated and balanced the tires and then i had trouble, so you over tourqed the wheels.. Oh, no we didn't he says, we torque them to spec.. i said well then, if you didn't over tourqe them and there spec, then its a defect in materials or workmanship and thus covered under warranty, he sorta studdered, i said may i borrow your phone i will call gm and get this taken care of, he said nah we will take of this for you mr. bue05...(I wasn't being an ass or anything really....) I show up an hour later, brand new rotors on both side, No charge, nothing said, warranty Excessive runout. no problem since. sorry i think i got it out of my system.. bue05
Its good to be at least somewhat familiar with or at least understand your GM/saturn warranty..If you don't know it at all, well things might not go so well. Plus the warranty of your car is in the purchase price!! you pay for it, you expect it, and you trust it. I will tell you most everything is cool and covered i really have only had to fight them over the breaks a few times and steering issue. The alignment is 7.500 miles or 12 months whichever comes first.. lol.. enough..bue05
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Old 04-05-2008, 04:37 PM   #25
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Default Re: Rotors, anyone?

This has been a very helpful thread. '07 Berry XE 9800 Kilometers, tan leather etc, etc. Located Vancouver - lots of hills. Brake flutter, pulsating - call is what you like

Rotors were machined yesterday , no questions asked. Great Saturn service but I agree with others. The standard rotors are not up to the job and hence a design flaw. Not a good PR position for GM to put themselves in.

I don't expect the machined rotors to fix the problem for long. Will cross that bridge when we come to it.

First Saturn - love it. Previous Audi, Acura junkies.
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Old 04-06-2008, 12:41 AM   #26
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Default Re: Rotors, anyone?

I just ordered some performance rotors and ceramic pads for mine, I will let everyone know how much of a difference its makes, they look great hopefully they will perform that way too, it will be like two before I can install them though I am flying out of town for a week and a half.
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Old 04-06-2008, 12:56 AM   #27
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Default Re: Rotors, anyone?

It doesn't take much of a hard brake application to warp the rotors on an Aura or G6. A swift stop from 70mph will do it. I suggest upgrading from OEM for any Aura owner that has experienced warpage.
...
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Old 04-06-2008, 04:50 PM   #28
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Default Re: Rotors, anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulld0g View Post
I just ordered some performance rotors and ceramic pads for mine, I will let everyone know how much of a difference its makes, they look great hopefully they will perform that way too, it will be like two before I can install them though I am flying out of town for a week and a half.
Nice, where did you get them? I am a idiot when it comes this stuff. Do you have a product number or something similar for them? Thanks...
...
"Success is the happy feeling you get between the time you do something and the time you tell a woman what you did." -Dilbert
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Old 04-06-2008, 10:40 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bertillion View Post
Nice, where did you get them? I am a idiot when it comes this stuff. Do you have a product number or something similar for them? Thanks...
here http://brakeperformance.com/site/index.php?&ad=google
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Old 04-07-2008, 08:23 PM   #30
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Default Re: Rotors, anyone?

Have you try checking guaranteed online stores? I have had mine (rotors and pads) with cheap cost yet of quality auto parts products. Try checking this link, you might find what you've been looking for.
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