SaturnFans.com
what's new (beta) - classifieds - forums - photos


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series Tech
Register FAQ Members List Groups Calendar Chat Room Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-28-2010, 06:25 PM   #1
strongboy2005
Member
strongboy2005 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 336
Default History repeats itself... 2 years later and car again fails smog

I am having almost the exact same problem as I had 2 years ago:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=129354

My car (1994 Saturn SC2 DOHC) failed smog today due to high hydrocarbons (HC) and high NO.

My results:

15 MPH:
HC: Max allowed - 81 ppm, Measured - 304 ppm; FAIL
NO: Max allowed - 504 ppm, Measured - 1358 ppm; FAIL

25 MPH:
HC: Max allowed - 41 ppm, Measured - 78 ppm; FAIL
NO: Max allowed - 542 ppm, Measured - 231 ppm; PASS

Vehicle passed all carbon monoxide tests and passed all other components of the test (PCV, catalytic converter, exhaust gas recirculation, wiring to sensors, fuel cap visual test, fuel cap functional test, fuel EVAP test, spark controls, vacuum lines to sensors/switches, fuel evaporative controls, oxygen sensor, carb./fuel injection, other emission related components, system malfunction light, and liquid fuel leaks).

As mentioned in the previous thread in 2008, my car has had extensive maintenance including brass ECTS, spark plugs, air filter, O2 sensor, fuel filter, thermostat with full coolant flush, ignition wires, cam cover gasket, PCV valve, and oil change. Replacing the catalytic converter solved the problem two years ago.

Now, it is again failing smog for nearly the same reasons as before, except this time it has a relatively new catalytic converter (almost exactly 2 years old).

One more thing: the guy doing the smog test says my car was "overheating". I asked him to describe what he meant and he said the gauge would climb up to nearly the red and then the fan would kick on and reduce the gauge temperature back to the mid-range. I believe this is normal activity for a 1994 Saturn, but correct me if I am wrong.

So, what could be the problem?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to strongboy2005's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help strongboy2005 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
strongboy2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 09-28-2010, 07:23 PM   #2
quantumech
Advanced Member
quantumech is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 750

2000 SL1
Default Re: History repeats itself... 2 years later and car again fails smog

The cooling system is working correctly, you are not overheating.

How old is the fuel pressure regulator? Did you change the correct ECTS (I believe you have two...one for the PCM, and another for the dash)?

Those are two things that come to mind, given that everything else has been replaced and sounds functional.

...
Sasha: 2000 SL1, Manual, cracked head Sept. 2014. Donated Dec. 2014

I learn from my experiences. If I screw up, I'm sorry.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to quantumech's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help quantumech reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
quantumech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2010, 07:38 PM   #3
dcc81187
Member
dcc81187 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Somerset
Posts: 278

1999 SC2
1996 SC1
Default Re: History repeats itself... 2 years later and car again fails smog

It sounds like you are running lean, does the car missfire? you may need to run some fuel injector cleaner

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to dcc81187's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help dcc81187 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
dcc81187 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2010, 07:42 PM   #4
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 65,130
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: History repeats itself... 2 years later and car again fails smog

Where did you get he replacement CAT?

How much oil are you using?

You get an SES light if the engine runs lean enough to cause these kinds of problems, even with OBD-1.

How long did you set in line waiting for the emissions test?

How old are the spark plugs and what brand and type?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2010, 09:59 PM   #5
Dr. Sprock
Member
Dr. Sprock will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 120
Default Re: History repeats itself... 2 years later and car again fails smog

if you are spewing and you get a new converter, it will get you thru smog,

but then it goes bad because you treated a symptom and not the cause,

oil rings? but who has time for a rebuild or engine swap?

how is your mileage?

if it is bad and your idle stays high, your ECTS is still gunnybag.

those specs are not just off, they are Way off, so i think you have an over rich condition

even a new converter will probably not be enuff to get it to pass,

there must be some low fruit we need to pick here,

like sensors and more sensors,

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Dr. Sprock's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Dr. Sprock reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Dr. Sprock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2010, 09:54 AM   #6
RobertGary1
Master Member
RobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 4,033
 

1996 SC2
2006 VUE 3.5L
Default Re: History repeats itself... 2 years later and car again fails smog

The SC's really overheat easily on the dyno, especially in the summer. Probably a design flaw by GM as they didn't take into account driving at 35 mph up a steep will with no airflow. My 96 SC2 never gets hot while driving, even at 100F+ and the A/C blowing but you put it on the SMOG dyno and its pushing into the red. The tech's joke about Saturns burning up on the dyno.

-Robert


Quote:
Originally Posted by strongboy2005 View Post
One more thing: the guy doing the smog test says my car was "overheating". I asked him to describe what he meant and he said the gauge would climb up to nearly the red and then the fan would kick on and reduce the gauge temperature back to the mid-range. I believe this is normal activity for a 1994 Saturn, but correct me if I am wrong.

So, what could be the problem?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to RobertGary1's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help RobertGary1 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
RobertGary1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2010, 01:13 PM   #7
strongboy2005
Member
strongboy2005 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 336
Default Re: History repeats itself... 2 years later and car again fails smog

Quote:
Originally Posted by quantumech View Post
How old is the fuel pressure regulator? Did you change the correct ECTS (I believe you have two...one for the PCM, and another for the dash)?
The fuel pressure regulator, to my knowledge, has never been changed. The PCM ECTS was changed to brass ECTS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcc81187 View Post
It sounds like you are running lean, does the car missfire? you may need to run some fuel injector cleaner
Car does not missfire. I will run fuel injector cleaner.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Where did you get he replacement CAT?
I don't remember. I ordered it online. I probably got what everyone on this site recommended at the time (2 years ago).

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
How much oil are you using?
About 1 qt between oil changes (every 3000 miles).

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
You get an SES light if the engine runs lean enough to cause these kinds of problems, even with OBD-1.
No SES light.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
How long did you set in line waiting for the emissions test?
I had no wait. I was the only customer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
How old are the spark plugs and what brand and type?
Spark plugs are about 2 weeks old and are the recommended copper NGKs.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to strongboy2005's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help strongboy2005 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
strongboy2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2010, 01:26 PM   #8
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 65,130
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: History repeats itself... 2 years later and car again fails smog

How far did you have to drive at 50mph or above on the way to the test station?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2010, 04:26 PM   #9
RobertGary1
Master Member
RobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 4,033
 

1996 SC2
2006 VUE 3.5L
Default Re: History repeats itself... 2 years later and car again fails smog

Before I test my 96 SC2 I drive up and down the highway going up the Sierra Nevada foothills for 30 minutes. It absolutely makes a different. I suspect that if I replace my cat I won't have to do this but replacing a cat in California is non-trivial as the cat must be approved for the car, stamped, paperwork filed to link the cat to your VIN number, etc. Not to mention to additional cost because the manufacturers must do certification testing for the state, only about 10% of the cats on the market are approved in California, and even then they charge you extra to recoup the certification costs. Obviously they took their advice from the FAA's methods.

-Robert

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
How far did you have to drive at 50mph or above on the way to the test station?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to RobertGary1's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help RobertGary1 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
RobertGary1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2010, 06:13 PM   #10
seanseaghan
Junior Member
seanseaghan is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 31
Default Re: History repeats itself... 2 years later and car again fails smog

Vaccum test the fuel pressure regulator, using a clear piece of tubing. Even is vacuum is steady, watch for gas bubbling into to tubing.

Mine failed outright a couple of months ago. However, I am pretty sure it was on the way out for some time. There were occaisional low speed misses / stumbles, which gradually became more frequent, similar to flooding.

When the unit finally failed, the idle bounced up and down, the engine was being flooded with fuel at idle, but still ran good at speed.

Replacing the regulator solved the idle issues.

I just had emissions tested last week, failed, then passed this week. I would imagine. the car would not have passed with the intermittent idle issues, too rich exhaust would result.

As reccomended by others, I changed the oil & filter, and went for an extended drive on the interstate to the test facility, and fortunately did not have to wait in line long.

In my case, a bad canister purge solenoid and vapor hoses may have also contributed to the failure, and also failing the tank pressure test.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to seanseaghan's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help seanseaghan reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
seanseaghan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 09:51 AM   #11
strongboy2005
Member
strongboy2005 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 336
Default Re: History repeats itself... 2 years later and car again fails smog

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
How far did you have to drive at 50mph or above on the way to the test station?
I had no over 50mph driving before getting to the smog shop. I drove straight there and didn't have to wait in line.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to strongboy2005's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help strongboy2005 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
strongboy2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 03:54 PM   #12
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 65,130
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: History repeats itself... 2 years later and car again fails smog

How long of a drive? You may have been the victim of a cold CAT. It can take a good 15 minutes to get one properly warmed up.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 04:26 PM   #13
strongboy2005
Member
strongboy2005 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 336
Default Re: History repeats itself... 2 years later and car again fails smog

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
How long of a drive? You may have been the victim of a cold CAT. It can take a good 15 minutes to get one properly warmed up.
Hmm yeah it was only a 5 minute drive. Do you think that's all it is? Could a faulty EGR valve be the cause or would I have other symptoms?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to strongboy2005's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help strongboy2005 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
strongboy2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 06:50 PM   #14
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 65,130
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: History repeats itself... 2 years later and car again fails smog

If the EGR is leaking or stuck you have driveability symptoms that are real annoying. If you have an electric EGR you will have a SES light but the vacuum EGR is not real good at informing you of anything. Either one you can take it of and block at least 1 port with a piece of can. You can block only one port on the vacuum EGR but you can block both on the Electric. I would do that just for peace of mind. If the car runs markedly better then there is something to fix.

The 5 minute drive is not adequate to get the CAT fully hot so that is the best guess from here of what happened.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 04:51 PM   #15
strongboy2005
Member
strongboy2005 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 336
Default Update

Took my car to a shop where they specialize in diagnosing smog problems. Just got off the phone with them and this is what they said:

Their assessment:
1. Car runs too rich on idle, and then too lean when the throttle is opened
2. Engine coolant temperature sensor (ECTS) is "telling the computer the engine is 66 degrees" when the engine is fully heated and has been running more than 30 minutes

Their plan:
1. Replace O2 sensor
2. Replace ECTS
3. Reevaluate for problem with catalytic converter once the O2 sensor and ECTS have been replaced

This is my issue with their advice: I have already replaced the O2 sensor, ECTS, and catalytic converter! It has been less than four years for all three. So my question is this: which of the three is most likely to have failed at this point? Unfortunately, it seems they have evidence the brass ECTS has failed (didn't know that was possible), and solid reasoning for the O2 sensor (lean/rich). So I am almost inclined to just let them start throwing parts at it, but I wanted to get input from here first. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to strongboy2005's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help strongboy2005 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
strongboy2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 05:53 PM   #16
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 65,130
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: History repeats itself... 2 years later and car again fails smog

See your other posts on this issue.....

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 07:24 PM   #17
RobertGary1
Master Member
RobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 4,033
 

1996 SC2
2006 VUE 3.5L
Default Re: History repeats itself... 2 years later and car again fails smog

SC's overheating during the SMOG test is *very* normal. The car isn't designed to cool very well on the dyno. The tech is suppose to place a 36" fan in front of the car to force air over the radiator but often they get lazy.

-Robert


Quote:
Originally Posted by strongboy2005 View Post
I
One more thing: the guy doing the smog test says my car was "overheating". I asked him to describe what he meant and he said the gauge would climb up to nearly the red and then the fan would kick on and reduce the gauge temperature back to the mid-range. I believe this is normal activity for a 1994 Saturn, but correct me if I am wrong.

So, what could be the problem?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to RobertGary1's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help RobertGary1 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
RobertGary1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 07:25 PM   #18
RobertGary1
Master Member
RobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 4,033
 

1996 SC2
2006 VUE 3.5L
Default Re: History repeats itself... 2 years later and car again fails smog

+1. If I drive my SC2 for 5 miles I'll fail California SMOG every time. The only way I can get it to pass is to drive up and down the mountains for 45 minutes and then pull right into the SMOG place. I suspect that the issue will get worse with age and I'll eventually end up replacing the CAT (which is very expensive in California).

-Robert


Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
The 5 minute drive is not adequate to get the CAT fully hot so that is the best guess from here of what happened.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to RobertGary1's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help RobertGary1 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
RobertGary1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 07:28 PM   #19
RobertGary1
Master Member
RobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 4,033
 

1996 SC2
2006 VUE 3.5L
Default Re: Update

The ECTS is pretty easy to test by simply plugging in a 1/2 way decent reader to the computer and pulling the temp directly from the computer. If it really does say 60F when the car is warm then maybe it is bad. However, I believe the cockpit gauge is simply a reflection of the same computer value so I would expect that if it were really reading 60F that you would be stuck on the bottom of the engine temp gauge. Perhaps teh shop tech doesn't know the difference between C and F?

-Robert


Quote:
Originally Posted by strongboy2005 View Post
Took my car to a shop where they specialize in diagnosing smog problems. Just got off the phone with them and this is what they said:

Their assessment:
1. Car runs too rich on idle, and then too lean when the throttle is opened
2. Engine coolant temperature sensor (ECTS) is "telling the computer the engine is 66 degrees" when the engine is fully heated and has been running more than 30 minutes

Their plan:
1. Replace O2 sensor
2. Replace ECTS
3. Reevaluate for problem with catalytic converter once the O2 sensor and ECTS have been replaced

This is my issue with their advice: I have already replaced the O2 sensor, ECTS, and catalytic converter! It has been less than four years for all three. So my question is this: which of the three is most likely to have failed at this point? Unfortunately, it seems they have evidence the brass ECTS has failed (didn't know that was possible), and solid reasoning for the O2 sensor (lean/rich). So I am almost inclined to just let them start throwing parts at it, but I wanted to get input from here first. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to RobertGary1's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help RobertGary1 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
RobertGary1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 08:12 PM   #20
strongboy2005
Member
strongboy2005 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 336
Default Re: Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertGary1 View Post
However, I believe the cockpit gauge is simply a reflection of the same computer value so I would expect that if it were really reading 60F that you would be stuck on the bottom of the engine temp gauge.
I think the temperature gauge and computer, for whatever reason, actually use different sensors on my model. Ironically, I did not replace the temperature gauge sensor (it still has the old style ECTS), but it has not failed, while (apparently) the brass ECTS that I installed has...

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to strongboy2005's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help strongboy2005 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
strongboy2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ABS self test sometimes fails on 1st try fetchitfido S-Series Tech 19 05-14-2009 01:14 AM
93 sl fails smog SES & high NO zigstarre S-Series Tech 3 11-12-2008 08:30 PM
It Never Fails........... 9sL26 S-Series Mods 19 03-17-2007 07:12 PM
Single Mom FAILS Smog Check HELP! OhBlahDah S-Series Tech 11 07-17-2006 01:11 PM
I passed HALF the smog? My smog trouble continues. :( amazinghl S-Series Tech 25 09-12-2003 01:14 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:07 PM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.