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Old 01-02-2020, 05:53 PM   #41
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Default Re: Ignition Switch 2004 Saturn Ion

May you have a happy New Year once this gremlin is kicked out of this Ion. Charlie, the admin here has dealt with auto bots spamming and my guess is the recent site outage is another house cleaning. He will sometimes fill us in on the latest outrage but whatever the reason, it's always good to have this site back.

You're doing more diagnostics than most. Thank you for taking the time and effort to rip wiring apart to examine the two suspect wires for the L and F terminals. And extra 'attaboys' to try another ecm in hopes of shotgunning the problem even though it didn't. At least you're on track with an excellent idea of supplying an external 5v signal to the L terminal. Sometimes thinking outside the box is better. I considered the same idea but hesitant - I would suggest it after a thorough assessment of voltages on those two terminals and only with someone with better than average knowledge of electrical systems, in this case the charging system that seems to be creating an annoying gremlin.

I'm not sure if your 12v to 5v idea is better or using a solid state off the shelf 12v to 5v regulator as the 5v signal to the L terminal. I'm almost certain this turn on signal doesn't need much current. I don't know as this is a dark area GM doesn't want anyone to know and my knowledge base isn't as deep as I'd like it to be. Measuring and verifying a voltage that corresponds to the alternator turning on with output voltages above 12.5v then seeing this signal drop out with the alternator not producing voltage and current with the battery light turning on appears to be very odd, especially after checking wire continuity and substituting the ecm to eliminate everything. Perhaps something isn't shown in wiring diagrams.......

I see no issues with supplying any external 5v signal to the L terminal and monitoring for any more voltage dropouts. In theory, this should work. It doesn't explain why 5v drops out from two ECMs........

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Old 01-02-2020, 09:59 PM   #42
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Default Re: Ignition Switch 2004 Saturn Ion

This what I am getting it will be here Saturday from Amazon.

12v to 5v DC Converter, DROK Voltage Regulator Board Power Supply Module, DC 6.3-22V 12V to 5V 3A 15W Waterproof Car Volt Step Down Buck Converter

Parameter:
Input voltage: DC 12V/9V (6.3V-22V)
Output voltage: DC 5V
Output current: 3A
Output power: 15W
Conversion efficiency: over 95% max.
Working temperature: -20℃~80℃
Dimension: 35*26*21mm/1.37*1.02*0.98 inch
Mounting hole distance: 41mm/1.61 inch
Mounting hole diameter: 4mm/0.15 inch
Installation cable length: 13-14cm/5.11-5.51 inch
Cooling: natural cooling

Protection:
Over-current protection;
Over-temp protection;
Input reverse connection protection;
Short-circuit protection

This looks like it should work as far as providing the steady 5 volts. I am going to use a 12 volt, fuse protected, hot when key in run position source.

My grand daughter told me I could sell the car once I get it fixed as she loves my little 5 speed ,98 SC2 Coupe! ..well I love my 98 more then she does so nope that's not going to happen! I primarily have it sheltered in the winter and drive it for fun in the summer on the winding roads we have here in foothills of the Cascades.

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Old 01-02-2020, 10:45 PM   #43
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Default Re: Ignition Switch 2004 Saturn Ion

I have fingers and toes crossed, hoping for a positive outcome.

You're a good man not wrestling your 5-speed away from your grand daughter.

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Old 01-03-2020, 01:45 PM   #44
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Default Re: Ignition Switch 2004 Saturn Ion

I do too...if nothing else it would eliminate the 5v dropout as the cause. What really baffles me is I have never had this code thrown.
P0641 SATURN - 5 Volt Reference Voltage Incorrect....which I would think would happen with the symptoms I am experiencing with the charging system.

From my research, having even one of the numerous 5 volt dependent sensors malfunction can a have an effect on other 5V dependent sensors. But everything else seems fine the car runs great on test drives ...all but the charging circuit. And only one code is shown (PO315) when scanning is done.

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Old 01-03-2020, 03:42 PM   #45
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Default Re: Ignition Switch 2004 Saturn Ion

You are correct about the EFI system losing a 5v reference with many sensors using it. I've read many threads but cannot recall anyone diagnosing and finding loss of 5v reference and error code(s) related to it. As you are aware, losing 5v used in several sensors would be the equivalent of an electronic spasm attack of the EFI system unable to cope. EFI system stroke?

I have experienced and read of many members unfamiliar with EFI systems of faulty crank sensors, almost every one of them without any error code pointing to it. My personal experience was proof, engine dying while driving with one major tell tale indicator - the tach died at speed. Battery and oil light came on but the engine not started shows these two indicators so this wasn't important while coasting off the highway. Typical intermittent crank sensor failure; random engine dying then starting up after engine cool down only to repeat again as the engine warms up. I memorized these symptoms from member descriptions and recalled it the moment my engine died at speed. Coasting off an exit and cool down while awaiting for help allowed the engine to startup as if nothing occurred. It died again as I drove thru local traffic, dying at just the right moment to coast into a parking spot to replace the sensor later that day. Never had it fail since with the replacement.

In one sense, I cannot imagine how electronics can monitor itself as a major sensor like the crank sensor fail to detect it then trigger an error code...The S-series, L-series, and Vues suffered this failure with zero error code to report sensor failure. Kinda like suffering a heart attack with many unfamiliar with symptoms and calling it out to anyone nearby.

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Old 01-06-2020, 05:29 PM   #46
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Default Re: Ignition Switch 2004 Saturn Ion

Well I put the step down 12 to 5 volt converter into the charging system . I hooked it into the red L wire that I disconnected from the Ecm so it was only getting 5v from the converter. I put in a switch to turn it on and off. I started the car with switch off measured battery voltage at the fuse box and engine ground. It measured 11.9v. I then turned on the converter and measured the input it was supplying the alternator it measured 5.1v. The battery voltage still remained at 11.9v with engine running but the IP telltale charging light was not lite indicating it should be charging! But there was no charging from the alternator.I took the converter out of supplying the 5v and hooked it back up to Ecm and the battery telltale then came back on indicating it 's not charging. My suspensions now are on the F grey wire. I don't know much about its purpose other then to monitor and and tell the Ecm to turn on charging light when its not charging.

I have run into a wall on this. I do have a new GM alternator connector that will be here in 2 days but I doubt that will solve anything but a guy never knows.

I wish I had a bi-directional scanner with capabilities to turn off and on the alternator also to watch the live data of the 5 volt signal.

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Old 01-06-2020, 07:11 PM   #47
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Default Re: Ignition Switch 2004 Saturn Ion

I thought applying 5v to the red wire/L terminal would turn on the alternator.

Let's go with applying 5v to the grey wire/F terminal. There doesn't seem to be any harm in trying.

Perhaps the drawings are labeled in reverse.......

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Old 01-06-2020, 11:42 PM   #48
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Default Re: Ignition Switch 2004 Saturn Ion

That's what I thought too...But When looking at listings of pin outputs and there associated wire colors on numerous different sources it always states Alternator turn on...red... Perhaps it grounding out some where ...I may spice in a new (F) grey wire up to the ecm. I did not measure voltage today in the F wire but I know the L wire went back to 1.39v when I re hooked it to the Ecm and when measure before the F wire was around that same voltage.

Here is what is stated in a portion of a Saturn service manual I recently saw. There are two DTC set for this charging circuit PO621 and PO622

From the Manual:

"The L-terminal circuit 225 is a two-way link between PCM and generator. The PCM supplies the generator with 5 volts when ever the ignition is turned on. The PCM will not supply 5 volts to generator during engine cranking if battery voltage is below 9.6 volts. Once engine the engine is running the generator must have this 5 volt supply to charge. If the generator stops charging while the engine is running, it will ground this 5 volt supply from the PCM. When the PCM detects this ground it will send it will send a message to the I/P cluster over the Class 11 link to illuminate the Charge telltale. The PCM determines electrical system load by monitoring the generator pulse width modulated (PWM) outout on the F-terminal circuit 23"

Diagnostic Aids
If the DTC PO621 is also set diagnose that DTC first. The generator will output a 0% duty cycle if it does not have 5 volts at the generator L-terminal while engine is running.

If a low circuit fault occurs in the F-terminal circuit while engine is running, the Charge telltale will illuminate however the generator will still charge. This only applies if the L-terminal circuit is functioning properly.

An open/short to ground or short to voltage on circuit 23 will set this DTC.

GENERATOR F-TERMINAL DC on Scan tool should read 17% with ignition On and engine Off.

As I don't have a scan tool that reads % and really know what they mean when they state these percentages? Do they mean % of the supply 5 volt?

On DTC Parameters:
DTC PO621 will set if generator L-terminal output voltage at the PCM is less then 4.0 volts when:
* Condition exists for longer than 15 seconds
* Engine is running
DTC PO621 diagnostic runs continuously with ignition On
PO621 is a(type D) DTC

With ignition On engine Off, voltage measured with a DVOM on circuit 225 at the generator with the connector disconnected should read 5 volts.

A generator that is not charging on circuit 225 (though resistance) to ground will set this DTC.

An intermittent open or short to ground on circuit 225 will set this DTC. Generator F-Terminal on scan tool will read 0% with ignition On if this occurs.

Gererator F-Terminal DC on scan tool should read 17% with Ignition On and engine Off.

So trying to wrap my head around this ...first off I have no codes set PO 622 or PO621 Why don't I? I would think it should have as it meets many of the parameters for that. But this gives me some knowledge of what could be amiss. I don't think applying 5 Volts to the F-terminal will do it any good and may harm the ECM ..perhaps not but don't feel like taking that chance.
I wish someone else that has had this particular problem could step in with a solution...I mean this cant be a one off just for me!

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Old 01-07-2020, 01:14 AM   #49
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Default Re: Ignition Switch 2004 Saturn Ion

I think the percentage values from a scantool (GMs Tech II) is interpolating pulse width modulated (pwm) voltages and neither digital nor analog voltage values. Unfortunately, diyers without GMs scantool or oscilloscope may not be able to measure the F terminal value as I wasn't sure about both voltages since they're left out of service manual descriptions. PWM works by pulsating DC current, and varying the amount of time that each pulse stays 'on' to control the amount of current that flows to a device such as an LED. ... PWM signals are typically square waves.

If I were in your shoes and stumped, I'd be performing the exact same procedures. Taking the safe stance of doing no harm, disconnecting one wire, the F or L terminal and supplying 5v to the alternator would fit into testing signal injection in hopes of activating a circuit. In this case, turning on the alternator. I don't think 5v will harm the ecm if a wire is connected to the alternator and external voltage is applied to this wire but disconnecting it from the ecm and applying 5v to the alternator to see if the alternator begins outputting 14v+ seems appropriate. The external 5v is straight dc voltage and not pulse width modulated. This may be another issue if the alternator is designed only to accept pwm signals. If this is the case, then a variable pwm circuit to vary voltage might be equal to ecm signaling to the alternator. A scope to measure the ecm signal would help to see it otherwise a dvm sees the rms value, different from pwm value. I'm not prepared to go deep into electronics and try focusing on what's needed to make a circuit work without using complicated tools.

I have a small analog scope that I planned on using to measure various signals on my car but have never used it. I've used scopes, analog and digital from work. Scope use matters less in high speed digital equipment except in military, radar and other advanced areas requiring signal measurement. So far, all my repairs didn't require scope use. This unusual alternator problem may be an occasion to use it to see actual signals to and from the ecm and alternator.

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Old 01-07-2020, 04:25 PM   #50
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Default Re: Ignition Switch 2004 Saturn Ion

I got an understanding now...As a hobby I am have built some elaborate AV systems and this understand the digital square waves and analog sine waves as it applies to audio...such as performed by a DAC. So understand the off and on width of the duty cycles and the percentages applied to the that pulse width.

I am about to go out and fiddle with the Ion it is a reasonable nice day from what its been so wont have to be slogging through through the muck to get back and forth to my separate shop/garage moving vehicles in and out...last night I had to help a poor young neighbor change out the ball joints and axles on a relatively new Jeep...and it was pouring He knew what he was doing but lacked some bigger tools and a third hand.

What I am doing today first off is pulling the main 12v wire that goes to the alternator completely out to do a good assessment. I have measure it for continuity and measured the voltage at the alternator at the beginning of this adventure but there could be a flaw in it along its length that may cause the off and on charging issues.

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Old 01-10-2020, 03:25 PM   #51
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Default Re: Ignition Switch 2004 Saturn Ion

No luck yet on this ongoing charging puzzle ...if I succeed at solving this I will definitely report back!

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Old 01-14-2020, 07:08 PM   #52
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Default Re: Ignition Switch 2004 Saturn Ion

Well I finally got every thing working as it should. To round it up This all started I am fairly certain now is when the Tow truck dude wanted to impress my grand daughter and jump start the vehicle. Now the reason for that is I finally got her to admit that she may have run the battery down while parked at the river. He must have got the cables crossed and all hell went up stream and knocked out a number of components. That's my theory ...we have been through that fix earlier to get the car running. (new start Switch module, replaced fuse box, Ecm and all the rest of the testing and what not)

Now with the charging system...to start I finally discovered that that battery even though it was a good quality battery and just over 1 year old had developed a short between the cells my assumption is from the wrong sided jump start. I had a maintenance charger on the bad battery most of the time as it seem to drain quickly...I also recall temporarily putting my truck battery in the car and still had a no crank no start. Of course this was at the early stages of the no crank no start diagnosis.

I had gotten a used alternator that tested good at O Reilly's but on a second test this week it was not good and had a short or some problem in the regulator after it ran awhile would have a fault and ground out. Was this caused from the the bad Battery? I don't really know for sure but seems to point that way. After putting a new Interstate Battery in it and another used, tested good, alternator it commenced to charge and continued to charge as it should.

This has been such a long convoluted procedure I'm not sure of all steps I have done to get to this point. I should had have kept notes or I guess I can go back and read what all I posted here to find out.

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Old 01-14-2020, 08:25 PM   #53
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Default Re: Ignition Switch 2004 Saturn Ion

Wow!? Who knew reversing jumper cables would create mayhem to the battery, alternator, electrical and electronic systems? Then again, there's little info when anyone experiences boosting a vehicle with jumper cables reversed and discusses results...........

Now that facts came forth, it appears you jumped thru hoops to find some sense to explain this strange issue and stuck with it to the end with results.

How long is your car being held hostage until your grand daughter caves in and returns it for her Ion back to running condition?

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Old 01-14-2020, 09:27 PM   #54
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Default Re: Ignition Switch 2004 Saturn Ion

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Wow!? Who knew reversing jumper cables would create mayhem to the battery, alternator, electrical and electronic systems? Then again, there's little info when anyone experiences boosting a vehicle with jumper cables reversed and discusses results...........

Now that facts came forth, it appears you jumped thru hoops to find some sense to explain this strange issue and stuck with it to the end with results.

How long is your car being held hostage until your grand daughter caves in and returns it for her Ion back to running condition?
I returned her car to her today...she was not that upset but she told me later that when she came up to a stop she automatically went to push the clutch in and stomped on the break peddle! I told her I have done that too after driving a stick for years then getting into an automatic.but Im proud that she learned in short order how to drive a stick shift.

I have heard of some ugly things happening when reversing cables happens ...most times in the old days either a fire or battery blowing up. I don't know how he did it or the exact route the the electrons took but I do know how delicate anything with mother boards and cpu's can be ...I do build PCs now and then... actually building one for my grandson now for his 11 birthday.

I feel good about the results now...but there were a few nights I would come back in the house very frustrated and thought about just giving the damn thing away...but come morning the itch was back to go back out and have at it again.
And a big thanks for helping me on this interesting case!

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