SaturnFans.com
what's new (beta) - classifieds - forums - photos


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series General
Register FAQ Members List Groups Calendar Chat Room Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-15-2018, 05:21 PM   #1
cgg17
Member
cgg17 will become famous soon enoughcgg17 will become famous soon enough
 
cgg17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 310

1995 SL2
1999 SL2
Default 5th Gear swap nuts

Hello all,
Im doing the 5th gear swap on my 1995 Sl2. I have secured the gear set, two spare nuts, and a new OEM gasket. The issue is the nuts. I cannot find new ones. I thought about using high temp loctite but do not want to have to heat up the nut to remove it again, for fear of trans damage. Any suggestions??

...
1994 Sl2 5spd: 56,576 (Totaled 1/10/2018)
1995 Sl2 5spd Manual Swap: 150,062
1999 Sl2 4spd: 98,8xx

Last edited by cgg17; 08-15-2018 at 05:30 PM..

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to cgg17's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help cgg17 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
cgg17 is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 08-15-2018, 05:26 PM   #2
Waiex191
Senior Member
Waiex191 has a spectacular aura aboutWaiex191 has a spectacular aura aboutWaiex191 has a spectacular aura about
 
Waiex191's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Poplar Grove, IL
Posts: 1,071

1999 SL2
1998 SC2
Default Re: 5th Gear swap nuts

Those parts are steel. I think you will find the locktite gives up long before the transmission parts do.

...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Waiex191's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Waiex191 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Waiex191 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2018, 06:22 PM   #3
cgg17
Member
cgg17 will become famous soon enoughcgg17 will become famous soon enough
 
cgg17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 310

1995 SL2
1999 SL2
Default Re: 5th Gear swap nuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiex191 View Post
Those parts are steel. I think you will find the locktite gives up long before the transmission parts do.
Okay, will it harm the seals or anything?

...
1994 Sl2 5spd: 56,576 (Totaled 1/10/2018)
1995 Sl2 5spd Manual Swap: 150,062
1999 Sl2 4spd: 98,8xx

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to cgg17's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help cgg17 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
cgg17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2018, 08:16 PM   #4
Waiex191
Senior Member
Waiex191 has a spectacular aura aboutWaiex191 has a spectacular aura aboutWaiex191 has a spectacular aura about
 
Waiex191's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Poplar Grove, IL
Posts: 1,071

1999 SL2
1998 SC2
Default Re: 5th Gear swap nuts

Those seals are pretty far from the nut. The gasket under the cover will be replaced.

...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Waiex191's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Waiex191 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Waiex191 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 11:52 PM   #5
cgg17
Member
cgg17 will become famous soon enoughcgg17 will become famous soon enough
 
cgg17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 310

1995 SL2
1999 SL2
Default Re: 5th Gear swap nuts

I did the swap with the red high temp loctite, worked well, car now does 2000 rpms at 60, 2300 rpms at 70, and a whopping 3100 rpms at 90. Well worth it.

...
1994 Sl2 5spd: 56,576 (Totaled 1/10/2018)
1995 Sl2 5spd Manual Swap: 150,062
1999 Sl2 4spd: 98,8xx

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to cgg17's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help cgg17 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
cgg17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2018, 08:59 AM   #6
bumpdraft
Master Member
bumpdraft is a jewel in the roughbumpdraft is a jewel in the roughbumpdraft is a jewel in the roughbumpdraft is a jewel in the rough
 
bumpdraft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,809
 

1998 SC2
1998 SW2
Default Re: 5th Gear swap nuts

If you get a chance, please let us know the before/after mpg.

...
Competition Clutch 10Lb. Flywheel. 14 stalls to date (and loving it)

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to bumpdraft's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help bumpdraft reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
bumpdraft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2018, 12:11 PM   #7
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 64,856
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: 5th Gear swap nuts

There have been serveral volumes written on how to recycle the nut once. Double nutting when soaked in ATF will not do much more than a single nut. A single cleaned used nut and a cleaned shaft along with 3M-TL71 has proved effective as well as just installing and torquing the nut. Search is your labor saving device. This mod was whipped up by 2 people and all pertinent info is right here on the forum.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2018, 05:20 PM   #8
cgg17
Member
cgg17 will become famous soon enoughcgg17 will become famous soon enough
 
cgg17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 310

1995 SL2
1999 SL2
Default Re: 5th Gear swap nuts

I do not track my mpg, I am a heavy footed driver and have a broken trip odometer that I do not want to do yet. I did not double nut it, I figured that with all of the suggestions on here I would just do the loctite. I just did this for the longevity of my engine. I rarely use 5th, but will be using it daily now on my commutes to college.

...
1994 Sl2 5spd: 56,576 (Totaled 1/10/2018)
1995 Sl2 5spd Manual Swap: 150,062
1999 Sl2 4spd: 98,8xx

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to cgg17's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help cgg17 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
cgg17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2018, 05:37 PM   #9
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 64,856
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: 5th Gear swap nuts

All that is required is to completely clean the shaft of remaining thread locker, it is not easy to remove, and final clean with 100% isopropyl alcohol or acetone. Same for the nut. Then use Locktite 272 or 3M TL71 thread locker and torque to spec. There is no slamming in a manual trans so they do not come loose. You can also use Locktite 620 but future removal will be a challenge.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2018, 07:04 PM   #10
cgg17
Member
cgg17 will become famous soon enoughcgg17 will become famous soon enough
 
cgg17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 310

1995 SL2
1999 SL2
Default Re: 5th Gear swap nuts

I did clean the nuts and the shafts to remove the old threadlocker or whatever it was, I used 620 I believe. I dont plan on removing them...

...
1994 Sl2 5spd: 56,576 (Totaled 1/10/2018)
1995 Sl2 5spd Manual Swap: 150,062
1999 Sl2 4spd: 98,8xx

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to cgg17's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help cgg17 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
cgg17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2018, 08:30 PM   #11
cgg17
Member
cgg17 will become famous soon enoughcgg17 will become famous soon enough
 
cgg17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 310

1995 SL2
1999 SL2
Default Re: 5th Gear swap nuts

Actually used Permatex 27100, I was curious so I dug it out of the trash... Good up to 300 Fahrenheit, package says it must be heated to 500 Fahrenheit to remove/ disassemble.

...
1994 Sl2 5spd: 56,576 (Totaled 1/10/2018)
1995 Sl2 5spd Manual Swap: 150,062
1999 Sl2 4spd: 98,8xx

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to cgg17's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help cgg17 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
cgg17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2018, 08:45 PM   #12
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 64,856
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: 5th Gear swap nuts

The threadlocker begins to lose strength in the 200F range and is completely destroyed at 500F. Not necessary deceptive advertising but somewhat misleading. To obtain the highest thread locking requires excellent cleaning and use of the primer, when this is done then it is quite tenacious at elevated temperatures. They freely tell you this in the TDS but those are rarely read. There are graphs of the force in ft-lb required to break the bond at various temperatures. The 271 and 272 are functionally equivalent.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 07:01 AM   #13
cgg17
Member
cgg17 will become famous soon enoughcgg17 will become famous soon enough
 
cgg17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 310

1995 SL2
1999 SL2
Default Re: 5th Gear swap nuts

Do you think it will still hold for me or is it a time bomb waiting to back off?

...
1994 Sl2 5spd: 56,576 (Totaled 1/10/2018)
1995 Sl2 5spd Manual Swap: 150,062
1999 Sl2 4spd: 98,8xx

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to cgg17's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help cgg17 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
cgg17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 07:12 AM   #14
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 64,856
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: 5th Gear swap nuts

If this is the first recycle of the nut they work just fine. None of them have come loose as far as we know. The only known failure was a DIY incorrect reassembly where the washer that sits against the input shaft bearing was allowed to drop down and that resulted in gross excesive clearance inside of the transmission.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2018, 03:44 AM   #15
Commeatus
Member
Commeatus is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Seattle
Posts: 72

1998 SW2
1997 SW2
Default Re: 5th Gear swap nuts

I just finished my first 5th-swapped tank and here's what I found:

highway went up by 2-4 mpgs across the board. live data shows situations where I used to get 34, I'm now getting 37+. power between 40 and 60 mph is marginally lower, but not in any way I care about. it's not any harder to pass above 60 in 5th than it was before.

city mileage has gone down! from 25ish down to around 23. I live in seattle, very hilly, making the new 5th difficult to use below 35. the jump from 4th at 35 is from almost 2k down to about 1200! this means I'm sitting in 4th going 25 and 30 where I used to be in 5th, and the time spent in the higher 5th isn't enough to make up for it.
the ECU also really, really doesn't like dropping below 1100 rpm. it seems like it runs rich to offset the lugging, so putting down any meaningful power below ~30 mph isn't saving any fuel. the ecu also hates cutting fuel when engine braking in 5th at low rpm. I think it gets nervous

I'd say if you're in a hilly city like seattle and never do any highway, don't do the mod. if you live in a flat place or spend a lot of time on the open road, go for it!

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Commeatus's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Commeatus reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Commeatus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2018, 07:23 AM   #16
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 64,856
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: 5th Gear swap nuts

Generally you will find in any city that 5th gear is just no longer useful. Using the 0.654 gearset and smaller diameter tires will improve 5th gear city performance where low traffic density performance is adequate. The 0.603 gearset is an overdrive gear and not going to work below 35-37mph.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2018, 08:39 AM   #17
fetchitfido
Super Member
fetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant future
 
fetchitfido's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 13,872
 

2001 SC2
Default Re: 5th Gear swap nuts

Rolling (over 5mph) idle is about 1200rpm...of course it's not going to be happy about being forced to run lower than that. Don't think there's a workaround other than a custom PCM.

I had better mileage with a 100% stock '96 SC2 than a MP2 swapped '97 SW2. Nice, awesome reliable 3-4mpg higher with the SC2 despite running the engine at a higher RPM at 70mph. Even found out that Mobil & Shell would give me about 2mpg more than Sunnoco/Irving while Cumberland Farms docked me nearly 5mpg!

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fetchitfido's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fetchitfido reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fetchitfido is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2018, 10:23 AM   #18
Waiex191
Senior Member
Waiex191 has a spectacular aura aboutWaiex191 has a spectacular aura aboutWaiex191 has a spectacular aura about
 
Waiex191's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Poplar Grove, IL
Posts: 1,071

1999 SL2
1998 SC2
Default Re: 5th Gear swap nuts

Thanks for the report. I think that if I ever want the benefit of the taller 5th gear, I'll make sure an SL1 is attached to it.

...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Waiex191's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Waiex191 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Waiex191 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2018, 10:42 AM   #19
trottida
Master Member
trottida is a splendid one to beholdtrottida is a splendid one to beholdtrottida is a splendid one to beholdtrottida is a splendid one to beholdtrottida is a splendid one to beholdtrottida is a splendid one to beholdtrottida is a splendid one to behold
 
trottida's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North of North of Toronto, Northern Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,066
 

1999 SL2
2001 SL1
Default Re: 5th Gear swap nuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
Rolling (over 5mph) idle is about 1200rpm...of course it's not going to be happy about being forced to run lower than that. Don't think there's a workaround other than a custom PCM.

I had better mileage with a 100% stock '96 SC2 than a MP2 swapped '97 SW2. Nice, awesome reliable 3-4mpg higher with the SC2 despite running the engine at a higher RPM at 70mph. Even found out that Mobil & Shell would give me about 2mpg more than Sunnoco/Irving while Cumberland Farms docked me nearly 5mpg!
My 99 SL2 MT gets better average mpg than my 01 SL1 MT...however it does have 150k less mileage on it and through the course of the year the SL2 probably gets more extended highway mileage. I drive the SL2 and my daughter drives the SL1. Both are mostly city runabout cars with a <10 km commute and about 14k KM per year.

In 2018 YTD the SL2 averaged 28.5 MPG(US) and the SL1 is 26.9. If I look back to 2015 when I was sole driver of the SL1 it averaged 26.1. Going back several years the SL1 has been about the same average MPG.

In my last full year driving the 93 SW2 AT it tracked 23.9 MPG. That was in 2009. That same year the SL1 tracked 24.3 over 4 months and in 2010 was at 25.7.

Looking at all the numbers, I think I've determined that for around town driving the DOHC has better fuel economy and for highway miles the SOHC is better.

...
2001 SL1 MT (417,500 km @ 05/2018)
1999 SL2 MT (260,870 km @ 05/2018)
2011 Suburban LT (111,176 km @ 05/2018)

Past Saturns
1993 SW2 AT
2001 LW200 MT
1992 SL2 MT

:canada:

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to trottida's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help trottida reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
trottida is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
S Series MP3 5th gear swap to lower MP2 gear? Dman12ny S-Series Tech 4 07-11-2017 08:09 AM
FS: 3rd gen sohc 5th gear with New OEM gasket and nuts ddeuces22 S-Series Mods 2 09-04-2016 07:24 PM
5th gear swap, gear stack mess... mattwithcats S-Series General 2 04-23-2015 06:54 PM
What's easier: 5th Gear Swap or full Trans Swap Tatohead S-Series Tech 6 07-30-2013 11:51 AM
1st Gen 5th gear swap fullyloadedSL2 S-Series Mods 17 11-09-2012 10:43 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:44 AM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.