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Old 04-18-2020, 07:14 PM   #1
enhancedrouting
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Default Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

Hi all,

I've got a 97 SL2 DOHC. I cleaned the injectors today, reassembled everything, main fuel line going to the fuel rail clicked in place and seemed solid, but as soon as I re-pressurized the fuel system it started leaking at a substantial rate from the connection between the fuel rail and the incoming fuel line. Tried re-seating it and that didn't help. It seems intact. Any thoughts as to how to repair this?

Thanks
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Old 04-19-2020, 12:33 AM   #2
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Default Re: Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

You probably need to replace the fuel filter assembly which includes the line with the leaking fitting.
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Old 04-19-2020, 09:00 AM   #3
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Default Re: Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1 View Post
You probably need to replace the fuel filter assembly which includes the line with the leaking fitting.
I thought the filter was back by the tank?
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Old 04-19-2020, 09:48 AM   #4
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Default Re: Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

How did you clean the injectors? Usually they have to be disassembled and then bench tested.were they spitting before?

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Old 04-19-2020, 09:48 AM   #5
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Default Re: Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

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Originally Posted by 454cid View Post
I thought the filter was back by the tank?
Only on the '98-'02's with the stupid regulator integrated with the filter.

Not all '91-'97 filters come with the extra line, but IIRC there's a bunch of various color/size o-rings used to seal the line and they're easy to mix up and/or nic.
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Old 04-19-2020, 10:01 AM   #6
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Default Re: Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

I have had the same problem multiple times with my 97 DOHC. Leaked at the fuel filter line connection at the fuel rail. I even put on an extra fuel rated o-ring... that worked for awhile.

But if I were you, I would replace the filter assembly.
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Old 04-19-2020, 10:50 AM   #7
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Default Re: Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

If you're changing the filter anyway and plan on keeping the car, here is an interesting fuel filter mod
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...uel+filter+mod
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Old 04-19-2020, 11:13 AM   #8
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Default Re: Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

I'll probably replace the filter assembly. I didn't realize that assembly included the connector, it's about $13 off rockauto so that'll be my cheapest option, probably.

May do that suggested mod anyway, despite the price drop in the fuel filter assembly since it was posted. I really would like to replace the fuel rail connector with something I can safely remove without substantial risk of needing to replace the fuel filter again. I'm thinking of using a 90 degree nylon shark bite style connector if I can get that to work with the fuel rail, I use those in some of my other projects and they don't break when I take them off repeatedly.

On this model the fuel filter is located near the driver's side wheel well. I only know that because, like 454cid, I thought it was back at that gas tank, because that's what my Haynes/Chilton manuals indicated, so I spent a day last year trying to figure out why there wasn't a fuel filter there. On pre-98s it's close to the wheel well, still a PITA to get to of course.

I mainly took the injectors out because I have a very intermittent (and thus hard to pinpoint) loss of power while driving. I wanted to make sure the fuel stream looked correct out of the injectors. I soaked the injectors in gas to get the dirt and gunk off, then ran pressurized throttle body cleaner through them using a bench test unit for a minute or so. They all look fine so I don't think that's my problem. Replaced the o-rings and then re-assembled.

My compression is good, spark is good, I've replaced all related sensors, plugs, etc. No vacuum leaks, other than the one I created when another old line to the throttle body snapped, so I've got no clue. Oh, cleaned out my purge solenoid too and throttle body, and replaced the idle control valve, probably several other things I've forgotten I tried too. I think I'll replace the fuel regulator next. Hate being a parts mechanic but I'm out of ideas.

Issue does only occur when it's in gear. Which made me suspect the transmission, but some folks on here felt that wasn't it so I've been focusing on the engine.

Thanks for the information and suggestions!
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Old 04-19-2020, 11:57 AM   #9
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Default Re: Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
Only on the '98-'02's with the stupid regulator integrated with the filter.

Not all '91-'97 filters come with the extra line, but IIRC there's a bunch of various color/size o-rings used to seal the line and they're easy to mix up and/or nic.
Interesting.... that reminds me of how it was done with carbs. I'd never think to look there on a fuel injected vehicle. I haven't changed many fuel filters, or owned that many vehicles so maybe it's more common than I realize.
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Old 04-19-2020, 12:06 PM   #10
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Default Re: Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by enhancedrouting View Post
I mainly took the injectors out because I have a very intermittent (and thus hard to pinpoint) loss of power while driving.
Have you seen this thread? http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=266111

Onlinebiker had a dead spot.... that could be considered a loss of power.
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Old 04-21-2020, 05:55 PM   #11
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Default Re: Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

Changing filter great idea unless recently renewed. I knew a mechanic who always Began most troubleshooting/tuning, by renewing the fuel filter.

I found that a new fuel pressure regulator made my '97DOHC (about 170kMi)
run Much better (even after testing the pressure, found about right).

Both my '97 and 2000 DOHC emit gasoline Fumes after a gas top-off filling operation. My '97 had some scratches on the fuel rail where the filter had probably been replaced with dirt-grit under the oring. I attempted to smoothen the surface with some Very Fine sandpaper, which helped.
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Old 05-15-2020, 02:26 PM   #12
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Default Re: Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

Okay, got my gauges here and hooked them up, then took some videos, can't quite hear the problem as well as I'd like but it shudders like it has a vacuum leak and it's worse in gear than in park or neutral (though the problem has worsened and it is now also apparent in park and neutral.) Car is stopped in both videos.

My vacuum in drive seems low to me. Also my vac gauge gives a reading about 3 in/hg higher than my MAP sensor seems to, I'm not sure if this is because the map sensor is more sensitive or if it indicates a problem.

My fuel pressure seems low at 35 psi. It goes up to 40psi when starting but falls down to 35 psi when running. I replaced the fuel filter about a year ago, it's in the wheel well on this model, but I haven't replaced the fuel pump because I haven't wanted to drop the gas tank.

RPM does drop when in gear and rises in park, so yes, I had recalled that backwards.

https://youtu.be/SdTmveeBO78
https://youtu.be/qcqogplcoh8

I plan to redo my compression check, I've done it twice and it was in spec per the FSM but I didn't save the numbers and compression, like this problem, may have gotten worse since I last did it.

Open to any advice or interpretations of these numbers or next steps on how to approach this problem.

Oh, I whacked my catalytic converter with a rubber hammer several times and it doesn't make a tinkling noise, which I'm given to understand means that the cat probably hasn't failed.

I checked for electrical issues, with the car turned off it only draws 20ma so I don't have a parasitic drain, or it's intermittent if I do.

Thank you for the preceding advice as well as any forthcoming advice.

Last edited by enhancedrouting; 05-15-2020 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 05-15-2020, 02:48 PM   #13
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Default Re: Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

You mentioned looking for vacuum leaks with brake cleaner.... some brake cleaner is not flammable.
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Old 05-15-2020, 03:03 PM   #14
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Default Re: Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

Really? Didn't know that. I used to burn used brake cleaner with cooking oil as a heat source, didn't realize there was non-flammable brake cleaner. I'll check.

I also ran through one can of starting fluid without finding anything, but that was a while ago.
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Old 05-15-2020, 06:30 PM   #15
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Default Re: Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

Vacuum is low. Did you rev the engine with the vacuum gauge attached to check for a blocked exhaust? Have you blocked the EGR valve with the soda can gasket?

What were the compression readings?
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Old 05-16-2020, 03:05 PM   #16
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Default Re: Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

Here are videos of vacuum readings I got when revving the engine both before and after installing an EGR blank.

I'll test the compression this evening when my lovely assistant is available to crank the engine. Since my compression tester has a slightly leaky schrader valve and won't hold pressure I have to watch it while the engine is being cranked, which makes it a two person job.

Pre-EGR Blank vac test: https://youtu.be/_tS8L0jjwjY

Post-EGR Blank vac test: https://youtu.be/arshXxRo770

All vac reading are in in/hg. At least that's what my gauge and meter say they're reading.

Gonna go norm out my vac gauge and make sure it's accurate.
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Old 05-16-2020, 04:10 PM   #17
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Default Re: Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

Checked my MAP sensor, by turning my car to the on position and reading the OBD2 meter. The car reads in absolute rather than relative vacuum, but after accounting for the fact that 1 ATM = 29.92 in/hg it appears to be working properly. When my hand pump reads 10 in/hg my car reads 19 ish in/hg and at 20 in/hg on the hand pump the car reads 9ish in/hg, which is what I'd expect a working absolute vacuum sensor to read.

Also, this new brake cleaner really doesn't burn, so I'll check again for leaks with starting fluid.
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Old 05-16-2020, 05:13 PM   #18
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Default Re: Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

Understanding EFI systems and then attempting to decipher scientific measurements can become confusing unless some more background info is considered. Map sensor info; https://www.aa1car.com/library/map_sensors.htm

If you care to use this link, https://www.google.com/search?q=in+h...hrome&ie=UTF-8, enter '29.2' into the in hg box to covert into vacuum, 14.3417. You're measuring (ignition ON, engine off) atmospheric/barometric pressure in your area. Your map sensor is operating correctly. To verify accuracy of your map sensor, look up your local weather stats. Among the stats should be local barometric pressure values. Since barometric pressures varies from mother nature governing weather to alter temperature, humidity and winds, barometric pressures will vary. Acquire local barometer readings immediately, before or after measuring map sensor values to compare the two. As a rule, map sensors are reliable and nearly bullet proof.

Standard sea-level pressure, by definition, equals 760 mm (29.92 inches) of mercury, 14.70 pounds per square inch, 1,013.25 103 dynes per square centimetre, 1,013.25 millibars, one standard atmosphere, or 101.325 kilopascals.
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Old 05-16-2020, 07:03 PM   #19
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Default Re: Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

Thank you very much for the information, I'm reading it over now, much more useful than the articles I was finding while trying to understand this, or even what my chilton manual has to say (which isn't much.)

Here are my compression numbers:

I did the test twice per cylinder once with 5 cranks (because someone on here asked about that at some point and I never posted numbers) and once to ten second. Got rained out before doing it with oil, so all these numbers are dry (meaning I didn't add a tsp of oil to each cylinder and re-run the test.) Let me know if you also want wet numbers and I'll get those when the rain stops.

5 cranks:
#1: 180psi
#2: 180psi
#3: 180psi
#4: 185psi

10 seconds of cranking (which is what the FSM says to do, if I recall right.)
#1: 190psi
#2: 190psi
#3: 185psi
#4: 190psi
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Old 05-16-2020, 08:41 PM   #20
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Default Re: Leaking fuel line at fuel rail?

Don't bother with the wet compression test; your compression is clearly good enough.
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