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Old 05-27-2020, 10:08 PM   #1
fourthwall
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Default ECU Temperature reading, S series?

Hi guys, long time lurker first time poster etc.

Hello to you all! You've been very helpful to me (and I haven't given much thanks) and I figured it was finally time to join in.

Anyway, here's my dilemna. My wife has a 2001 SL2 with the 1.9 DOHC.

I understand Saturn cars of this vintage are a bit infamous for ECTS problems. I'm trying to work out if I have a bad stat, a bad ECTS, or neither!

The coolant guage only ever reads 1/4, and sometimes it starts rough/has high idle etc.

All this points to failing ECTS, according to prevailing wisdom - using an ODB tool, the engine temperature is reported as about 65C/150F when fully hot at the quarter mark - which does seem very low. However, from what I read - 1/4 guage is normal for an SL2 of this era! So I wonder. Is my ODB scan tool merely misinterpreting the temperature, or is it acutally running too cool (stuck stat), or is the ECTS defective?

The engine seems to have a persistent rich condition that it is correcting for with negative fuel trims. However, the heater blows pretty hot and I also can feel a temperature differential between the pipes on either side before the car warms up, when they equalize - all of which seems to suggest a properly working stat. I would suspect the ECTS, but reading that a quarter on the guage is normal seems to cast doubt on that - unless of course, the guage simply reads "quarter" for a very wide temperature range.

Kind regards
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Old 05-27-2020, 10:30 PM   #2
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Default Re: ECU Temperature reading, S series?

Pay no attention to all that hype about where the temp needle should be. Neither the t-stat or temp sensing system are precision instruments.

First step is to stick a meat/candy thermometer into the coolant reservoir when the engine is at its "full" 150F temp (as indicated by live-data). See if the temp sensing system is reasonably close; like within 10F of what you see on the immersion thermometer.

Be careful when taking the coolant cap off to do this, just in case the temp sensor is hosed and the coolant is actually up near the proper 210F
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Old 05-27-2020, 11:52 PM   #3
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Default Re: ECU Temperature reading, S series?

With a cold engine, remove the coolant sensor. The system may leak some fluid but won't as vacuum will hold coolant from pouring out as you make a quick assessment. Either you have the original resin round nosed faulty sensor or the flat nosed brass one (the correct/current one). See the two images below.

1-If you have the original round nosed sensor, replace the sensor.

2-If you have the flat nosed brass sensor, replace the thermostat. Normal coolant temps run between 185F-195F.
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:34 AM   #4
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Default Re: ECU Temperature reading, S series?

If you pull out the ECT sensor to check/change it, dunk it in ice-water and boiling water to check what the live-data reports. Then you can verify that the whole sensor circuit is OK, and see where to expect the temp gauge needle to be at near 212. It is difficult to get readings right at 32F or 212F (you are near sea-level, correct?); it takes "vigorous stirring" to get close and a deep enough bath so that the wire leads alone don't heat/cool the sensing area. If you get within 5F looking at live-data, call it good enough
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Old 05-29-2020, 10:53 AM   #5
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Default Re: ECU Temperature reading, S series?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwall View Post
I'm trying to work out if I have a bad stat, a bad ECTS, or neither!
wait, is both not an option?

Quote:
The coolant guage only ever reads 1/4, and sometimes it starts rough/has high idle etc.
rough start/high idle points towards the ECTS - you wouldn't get that with just a bad tstat (though you might see slightly high ~1200 rpm idle when engine is warmed)
Quote:
All this points to failing ECTS, according to prevailing wisdom - using an ODB tool, the engine temperature is reported as about 65C/150F when fully hot at the quarter mark - which does seem very low. . . So I wonder. Is my ODB scan tool merely misinterpreting the temperature, or is it acutally running too cool (stuck stat), or is the ECTS defective?
Your OBD scan tool reads the car's computer, the PCM (power control module). The PCM relies on the ECTS for the coolant temp. So, if the ECTS is bad, the PCM does not know the actual coolant temp and neither will the OBDII scanner.

Quote:
However, the heater blows pretty hot and I also can feel a temperature differential between the pipes on either side before the car warms up, when they equalize - all of which seems to suggest a properly working stat.
That's good troubleshooting there! I agree, tstat is not likely the culprit.

Try first thing in the morning before starting the engine - plug in your OBD scanner and turn the key to ON (not starting the engine). Your scanner should show coolant temp and intake air temp with 5F of each other and within 5F of ambient air temp
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Old 05-29-2020, 11:00 AM   #6
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Default Re: ECU Temperature reading, S series?

We need trottida to come along with his pictures.
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Old 05-31-2020, 08:31 PM   #7
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Default Re: ECU Temperature reading, S series?

Hi guys, I replaced the ECTS with an aftermarket ACdelco part. Seems to work. Engine now reports temperatures of 82C (180F) after running a little while.

Most other cars I'm used to seeing 88C-90C (190-194F). Can anyone confirm if this is normal for the SL2, or is my stat just a little loose? Or possibly the ACdelco part isn't 100% accurate. Either way, it seems close enough.

Thanks for all your help.

Last edited by fourthwall; 05-31-2020 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 05-31-2020, 08:33 PM   #8
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Default Re: ECU Temperature reading, S series?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alordofchaos View Post
wait, is both not an option?

rough start/high idle points towards the ECTS - you wouldn't get that with just a bad tstat (though you might see slightly high ~1200 rpm idle when engine is warmed)
Your OBD scan tool reads the car's computer, the PCM (power control module). The PCM relies on the ECTS for the coolant temp. So, if the ECTS is bad, the PCM does not know the actual coolant temp and neither will the OBDII scanner.

That's good troubleshooting there! I agree, tstat is not likely the culprit.

Try first thing in the morning before starting the engine - plug in your OBD scanner and turn the key to ON (not starting the engine). Your scanner should show coolant temp and intake air temp with 5F of each other and within 5F of ambient air temp

Very good advice. I did think the ECTS was defective based on a persistent rich condition being reported by PCM, as well as a the rough idle and so on. I can verify that the resin ECTS was cracked pretty good. Brass tipped replacement in there now. I appreciate that the PCM data can only be as good as the sensors feeding it. Apologies for my familiarity with Celsius, I'm an émigré to the States, and a convert to Saturn
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Old 05-31-2020, 09:33 PM   #9
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Default Re: ECU Temperature reading, S series?

Did you connect the new sensor to the car harness and dip the sensor in both boiling water and ice-water? That would tell you if the ECT sensing system is reading OK; no more guessing. If that 180F is real, then the t-stat is probably tired. T-stats that don't close tightly seem to be fairly common here, due to the design; but any bit of extra resistance in the ECT circuit will show up as a lower-than-actual reading. So, I think it is worth checking the ECT sensor circuit thoroughly before going after the t-stat. The sensor is a lot easier to R & R than the t-stat.
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Old 05-31-2020, 09:42 PM   #10
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Default Re: ECU Temperature reading, S series?

To tell you the truth, I did not. Getting at the sensor was a bit difficult and I had to take the air intake off etc... balancing it with hot water seemed a recipe for disaster

I agree that it would be comprehensively diagnostic though. What I might do is see if I can get a reasonably accurate submersible thermometer and submerge it in the overflow tank with the engine running and see what kind of tolerances the sensor is reporting with regards to the known temperature of the system. If it's still inconclusive I'll try your suggestion to give me a measure of finality
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Old 05-31-2020, 09:52 PM   #11
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Default Re: ECU Temperature reading, S series?

The factory thermostat runs at 195F. Some of the after market ones will open at 185F though. 180 is probably a little low
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Old 05-31-2020, 09:55 PM   #12
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Default Re: ECU Temperature reading, S series?

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
Did you connect the new sensor to the car harness and dip the sensor in both boiling water and ice-water? That would tell you if the ECT sensing system is reading OK; no more guessing. If that 180F is real, then the t-stat is probably tired. T-stats that don't close tightly seem to be fairly common here, due to the design; but any bit of extra resistance in the ECT circuit will show up as a lower-than-actual reading. So, I think it is worth checking the ECT sensor circuit thoroughly before going after the t-stat. The sensor is a lot easier to R & R than the t-stat.
Thinking along the same lines I could perhaps measure the resistance for a known reported temperature using my multimeter and then compare it to the car's lookup table for that resistance figure, to see if there's any drift? I've done that with a Subaru.

I was tempted to replace the T-stat with a stant one just as a preventative measure anyway, but from what I hear the stant ones are markedly inferior to the Saturn OE stat and they fail often. Anyone know how true that is?
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Old 05-31-2020, 11:10 PM   #13
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Default Re: ECU Temperature reading, S series?

You can certainly check the sensor itself easily with a multimeter, but checking the entire system/circuit is going to be more difficult. You will need to go all the way into the PCM to check all external wiring/connectors and the soldering and traces on the PCM board. And, still, the PCM electronic components (like ADC) will be untested. Using the water baths and reading live-data reported by the PCM checks everything in the ECT sensing system; and does it fairly easily.

PS: I feel Stant is a reputable brand, and would trust their product.
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Old 06-01-2020, 12:03 AM   #14
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Default Re: ECU Temperature reading, S series?

Fair point. I'll crack the sensor out and dunk it in something if a stat doesn't resolve the issue - as I should probably replace that anyway when I do my water pump tomorrow.

Cheers
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Old 06-01-2020, 02:03 AM   #15
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Default Re: ECU Temperature reading, S series?

When the water pump failed last year on my 99 SL2, I also got around to replacing the thermostat with an AC Delco thermostat housing + thermostat, and the ECT sensor. The thermostat still functioned, but the seal around it had deteriorated, allowing some coolant to bypass the thermostat at all times, even when closed. The original ECT was cracked, like yours. After replacement, the engine temp was 195 when fully warmed up, which took a lot less time than before.

And in warm weather, letting the engine idle for 5-7 minutes will raise the temp gauge to a little over 1/2, at which point the fan will kick in and lower it to 3/8 within 30 sec or so.
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Old 06-01-2020, 08:24 AM   #16
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Default Re: ECU Temperature reading, S series?

I agree, 180F is still a little low. You might be that 'lucky' person that has more than one condition going on at the same time
checking your IAT and ECTS temps vs ambient temp might help pinpoint if readings are still a bit off. I forgot to mention, also check MAP reading.

sometimes you have multiple things that are OK individually but a little off and they combine to make a noticeable condition,

But I agree with billr, I would test before replacing. I guess since you are doing the waterpump anyway, doesnt hurt to do the tstat since the coolant is emptied. It's been a while but IIRC, the 3rd gen was a little harder to replace because of the air pump or something else being in the way

There seemed to be a bad batch of Stants a while back (I had one, installed 8/2009 @102k miles, failed after about 2 years and replaced 12/2011 @136k miles; the replacement Stant is still working the car @ 202k miles). Have not heard about failures recently, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwall View Post
I can verify that the resin ECTS was cracked pretty good. Brass tipped replacement in there now. I appreciate that the PCM data can only be as good as the sensors feeding it.
Did you check the condition of the ECTS connector?

When I replaced my cracked ECTS, I saw no improvement. But my connector had visible corrosion on it. Being new here and cheap, I cleaned the connector and used it anyway. After seeing no improvement, I went ahead and soldered in a new connector. Bingo, it was like a whole new car.

If you need a ECTS connector, drop me a PM w address and I can mail you one. Actually cleaned part of the garage yesterday and found one of my spares (when I was new to Saturn and started going to junkyards, I made it a habit to clip out IAT connectors - they are the same pigtail connector as the ECTS but always in better condition because of the location away from hot coolant)

Quote:
Apologies for my familiarity with Celsius, I'm an émigré to the States, and a convert to Saturn
No worries, I'm also émigré but moved here young enough that I have been using Freedom Units my whole life
(we also have a fair number of Canadian members, so conversion from C to F
Freedom Units is pretty common on this forum)
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Old 06-01-2020, 12:05 PM   #17
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Default Re: ECU Temperature reading, S series?

Quote:
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...... I can verify that the resin ECTS was cracked pretty good. Brass tipped replacement in there now. I appreciate that the PCM data can only be as good as the sensors feeding it. Apologies for my familiarity with Celsius, I'm an émigré to the States, and a convert to Saturn
Finding a cracked coolant sensor may also result in coolant leaking out of the sensor and corroding the tiny connectors. This can create resistance - higher resistance skews signals into false colder temperatures with more fuel used than needed. Examine the two wire connector for any corrosion and replace it if necessary.

88C-90C or 10-90F-195F for t-stats used in the S-series.

Instead of measuring resistance values and looking up a resistance/temperature chart, use a reader capable of displaying coolant temperatures as the pcm sees it. Compare coolant sensor value to intake air temperature sensor with a cold engine at ambient temperature. A warm engine with a good t-stat should display between 185F-200F.
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Old 06-01-2020, 02:32 PM   #18
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Default Re: ECU Temperature reading, S series?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alordofchaos View Post
sometimes you have multiple things that are OK individually but a little off and they combine to make a noticeable condition,

...

Did you check the condition of the ECTS connector?

When I replaced my cracked ECTS, I saw no improvement. But my connector had visible corrosion on it. Being new here and cheap, I cleaned the connector and used it anyway. After seeing no improvement, I went ahead and soldered in a new connector. Bingo, it was like a whole new car.
Hi Chaos,

I think that may be the case here with regards to compounding factors. Replacing the ECTS DID result in a higher temp read, now peaking at 180F. Previously it was peaking at 160F or so. So I think the cracked ECTS was systematically under reading. However, as you point out - 180F is still a little low. The stat does seem suspect on the basis that the warmup for the car is slow, and it requires driving to actually get it to that 180F peak. I am not a seasoned mechanic by any means, but in other cars I've owned, even idling was enough to allow the warmup to 88C/190F at which point the stat opened and controlled the temperature from there - and the process was rapid. The Saturn seems to languish around 64C at idle and heat up to about 80C after lots of driving.

I will check my connectors for corrosion as per yours and fdryer's suggestion. It's possible that corrosion is introducing a systematic increase in resistance that would result in a persistent underread, right? But combined with the slow warm up times (a difference in the rate of change, rather than a simple offset) that leads me to think the stat is probably suspect. But who knows, perhaps I ALSO have corrosion on my wiring!

Ever since replacing the ECTS though the car starts nicely on one turnover like it did in its glory days. So I feel it's made a definite improvement. I just worry about tired stats - I hear they eventually fail closed.
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Old 06-02-2020, 11:26 AM   #19
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Default Re: ECU Temperature reading, S series?

Replace the t-stat. You suffered the same issues others experienced; original faulty coolant sensor damage resulting in rich fuel mixtures, overheating in summer temperatures because the sensor doesn't send correct signals to the pcm resulting in overheating with the cooling fan never turning on unless ac is used. The t-stat rubber seals melt with slower engine warm-up and coolant never reaching t-stat operating temperatures. When you remove the t-stat, you're likely to find melted seals. Once sensor and t-stat are replaced, engine warm-up and heater operation will return for warmer heat in cold weather. And fan cooling will return as coolant heats up in summer weather. Your temperature gauge needle should be between the 1/4 and 1/2 marks.

If the two wire connector to the coolant sensor isn't corroded by your observations of a return to instant starting then all that's needed is to replace the t-stat.
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Old 06-02-2020, 07:44 PM   #20
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Default Re: ECU Temperature reading, S series?

The worst thing is, the fan NEVER ran. Because the AC was broken - a mouse had chewed through the bypass switch so the compressor never engaged. Let's just say my wife kind of "puts up" with things rather than alert anyone there's a problem...
("the low oil light only comes on uphill!" is a quote she once delivered to me. I dread to think about how starved those conrods were. Although she's a bit better about these things now)

I'm hoping the years that it's been like this hasn't upset it long term - but I'm replacing the T-stat and hoping for the best. Seems to be intact so far at 124k miles.

Last edited by fourthwall; 06-02-2020 at 07:52 PM.
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