SaturnFans.com
what's new (beta) - classifieds - forums - photos


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn Astra > Astra Tech
Register FAQ Members List Groups Calendar Chat Room Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-05-2013, 02:51 AM   #21
vanilla sky
Member
vanilla sky is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 438

2008 Astra XR
Default Re: Headlamps improper for night driving

If your car still has the original bulbs, they are probably dim. Light bulbs DO lose output over time.

Are your headlights hazed? That will also result in less lumen output.

Astra La Vista touched on filament placement. The problem with HIDs is that it's light is distributed differently from an incan bulb, and is originating from a different location. Our housings are designed to accept 9005 incan bulbs, not HIDs. The reflector and lens optics are incorrect for HIDs. A proper HID install is going to include a set of housings from an HID-equipped Astra.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to vanilla sky's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help vanilla sky reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
vanilla sky is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 08-05-2013, 09:26 AM   #22
paulff3
Member
paulff3 will become famous soon enoughpaulff3 will become famous soon enough
 
paulff3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 357
 
Default Re: Headlamps improper for night driving

Quote:
Originally Posted by vanilla sky View Post
The problem with HIDs is that it's light is distributed differently from an incan bulb, and is originating from a different location. Our housings are designed to accept 9005 incan bulbs, not HIDs. The reflector and lens optics are incorrect for HIDs. A proper HID install is going to include a set of housings from an HID-equipped Astra.
Not true for our Astras. We have projector headlights with a very sharp cutoff. What you say above is true for reflector headlights. HIDs work great in our cars. I highly recommend this upgrade to our cars.

...
15 Mazda 3 s Grand Touring 5-Door Manual
14 BMW 435i M Sport 6speed
08 XR 5 speed - Blue with 3M film - SOLD!
03 Acura CLS 6speed - Silver with 3M film - SOLD!

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to paulff3's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help paulff3 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
paulff3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2013, 04:53 PM   #23
Astra La Vista!
Senior Member
Astra La Vista! has a spectacular aura aboutAstra La Vista! has a spectacular aura about
 
Astra La Vista!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 1,490
 

2008 Astra XR
Default Re: Headlamps improper for night driving

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulff3 View Post
Not true for our Astras. We have projector headlights with a very sharp cutoff. What you say above is true for reflector headlights. HIDs work great in our cars. I highly recommend this upgrade to our cars.
Actually, vanilla sky is correct. It has very little to do with the position of the cut-off and is mostly due to the precise focal point of the light source behind the projector lens itself. The lens is optically designed to gather as much light as possible from a very specific location, and there is a measurable shift in this focal point when comparing incandescent bulbs with HIDs. The former produces light along a short length of filament that sags under gravity as it heats up, while the weightless arc of an HID is not affected by gravity but is affected by convection, which results in an arc that "sags upwards" instead. The light output is brightest at this precise point, and falls off the further away out get.

I believe that European Astra HID headlight enclosures have a different part number than North American ones, but this might not indicate that these two parts are fundamentally different. European part numbers often don't mesh with ours, and vice versa. And since European Astras never came with the option of running incandescents in projector headlight assemblies like we do, we will likely never know. It is certainly within reason that GM North America used the European HID headlight assemblies in our Astras simply because it wasn't worth the cost in designing two different projector lenses.

But even if there is a difference and our beam patterns aren't focusing the brightest part of the arc as efficiently as they could, it becomes a matter of opinion about how much it matters. We're not attempting to achieve crystal clear focus like a movie projector, but there will still be some scatter. You only have to witness an expensive set-up like the factory lights on a high-end Mercedes or BMW to see a truly "night & day" cut-off under moonless night conditions when there aren't any street lights around, and yes, our lights don't look anywhere near as good. That said, installing an aftermarket HID kit in a North American Astra still yields results that are far, far better than an HID install in reflector assemblies. If you want any better, your best option is still to retrofit actual OEM projector lens from a wrecked donor vehicle.

...
"That's a Hruck Bugbear, manufactured in Eastern Europe in the eighties and imported to the States. People mock it as a poor man's Yugo. I consider it the pinnacle of Cold War Balkan engineering."

Last edited by Astra La Vista!; 08-05-2013 at 04:59 PM..

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Astra La Vista!'s Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Astra La Vista! reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Astra La Vista! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2013, 05:13 PM   #24
paulff3
Member
paulff3 will become famous soon enoughpaulff3 will become famous soon enough
 
paulff3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 357
 
Default Re: Headlamps improper for night driving

We're on the same page. HIDs on our cars work well.

...
15 Mazda 3 s Grand Touring 5-Door Manual
14 BMW 435i M Sport 6speed
08 XR 5 speed - Blue with 3M film - SOLD!
03 Acura CLS 6speed - Silver with 3M film - SOLD!

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to paulff3's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help paulff3 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
paulff3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 12:29 PM   #25
vanilla sky
Member
vanilla sky is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 438

2008 Astra XR
Default Re: Headlamps improper for night driving

Our lighting standards are different, so yes, they did make new headlights for our cars. Different light patterns and everything.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to vanilla sky's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help vanilla sky reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
vanilla sky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2013, 12:10 PM   #26
802astraXr
Member
802astraXr is on a distinguished road
 
802astraXr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Burlington Vermont
Posts: 112
Default Re: Headlamps improper for night driving

Quote:
Originally Posted by Articwhite2008 View Post
Get some 55watt DDM hid kits in there. Best mod you can do on the car.
^^^^ This is what I did. I completely agree. I personally recommend 6000k. You need to add capacitors for the can bus, but it is very easy and there is a good guide on this site.
I have tried a few different brands of HIDS but DDM is by far the best.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to 802astraXr's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help 802astraXr reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
802astraXr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2013, 12:30 PM   #27
paulff3
Member
paulff3 will become famous soon enoughpaulff3 will become famous soon enough
 
paulff3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 357
 
Default Re: Headlamps improper for night driving

If you get the right kit, you don't have to do capacitors. KBCarStuff.com

...
15 Mazda 3 s Grand Touring 5-Door Manual
14 BMW 435i M Sport 6speed
08 XR 5 speed - Blue with 3M film - SOLD!
03 Acura CLS 6speed - Silver with 3M film - SOLD!

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to paulff3's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help paulff3 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
paulff3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2013, 09:14 PM   #28
nicolas_p
Senior Member
nicolas_p has a spectacular aura aboutnicolas_p has a spectacular aura about
 
nicolas_p's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: St Catharines, Ontario
Posts: 1,251
 

2009 Astra XR
2008 Astra XE
Default Re: Headlamps improper for night driving

I bought Migo Racing VX3 digital HID which are made for cars with canbus systems, they require no modification to the vehicles electronics. All you need to do is make a hole for the extra wires in the head lights and find a secure place to mount the ballasts. I still haven't gotten a bulb out warning like many other kits, the kits cost me 100$CAN with taxes

...
09 Vauxhall Astra XR3/STD
18" Team Dynamic MonzaR rims
Eibach Sportline, Whiteline BHR75Z swaybar and EBC Rotors
CD30 Mp3, Insignia jets, vxR surround, sharkfin antenna, Spoiler, Tint

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to nicolas_p's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help nicolas_p reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
nicolas_p is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2013, 01:57 PM   #29
CZECHLAGER
Member
CZECHLAGER has a spectacular aura aboutCZECHLAGER has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Cedar Lake, IN. 46303
Posts: 239

2001 SL2
1995 SW1
Default Re: Headlamps improper for night driving

Hello, Before you spend any money on different bulbs you need to go where they have the true headlight aiming equipment. It is a tool that attaches to each head light with suction. There are levels and mirrors on them. The mirrors allow the L+R lights to look at each others cut off profile so they can be properly aimed The 25FT from a wall or garage door isn't what you want to be using to get the most out of your head lights. Rick

Last edited by CZECHLAGER; 09-19-2013 at 02:07 PM..

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to CZECHLAGER's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help CZECHLAGER reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
CZECHLAGER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2013, 03:15 PM   #30
Burgandy25
Member
Burgandy25 has a spectacular aura aboutBurgandy25 has a spectacular aura aboutBurgandy25 has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Grandville, MI
Posts: 201
 
Default HIRs are a great choice is you don't want to sacrifice DRLs.

ressurection time!
So we have 2 Astras, both 4 door XRs. The first one we got had a bulb go out over the summer. It being my sisters car she wanted good lights but didn't care much as long as they were not junk. So I installed HIRs from (candlepower store - google them) We have bought about 6 pairs of bulbs from them over the past 2 years. They have really great stuff and no "junk." They have the new Philips HIR bulbs. We have 3 sets of the new HIRs in our cars, 2 in our Journey, and one in my sisters Astra. I can tell you that if you want to keep your DRL functioning, the HIRs are the way to go, they are very very bright.
I just didn't see anyone put forward this website, they also carry better bulbs for brake lights, corner lights, and mostly everything. But they don't carry LEDs.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Burgandy25's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Burgandy25 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Burgandy25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2017, 01:42 AM   #31
scarlett
New Member
scarlett is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Maple Ridge, BC
Posts: 8

2008 Astra XE
Default Re: Headlamps improper for night driving

Finally an update on the current status of events since I first asked this question 4 long years ago. Thank you to you all for the fantastic technical input. I most appreciate Astra La Vista for the simplicity of what I required.

Indeed the general issue was with that the lights were aiming far to low to be of any significance in the night. attempting to measure focal lengths and upgrade to fancy HID were not in the technical aspect of what I am able to accomplish. I opted instead to purchase the cheapest lowest lumen bulb available at Canadian Tire and drive with the "HI" beam in all evening situations. In 4 years I have been flashed 3 times. Yet I can see all I need to see and more.

Recently I have found the solution to the removing bumper skin. 4 screws that hold the bottom to the frame somehow came out and as I was backing out of a stall the bumper caught up on the stopping block and tore right off....interestingly it popped back on. I did this once more before replacing the screws on the bottom.

With this experience I now feel confident in accessing the lamps and shimming them.

My wife and I love this little car so with the age of it and little tidbits outside the normal scope for my mechanic I expect I will continue to appreciate all your input. Thank you all again.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to scarlett's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help scarlett reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
scarlett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2017, 10:29 AM   #32
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 43,523
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Post Re: Headlamps improper for night driving

Although I'm not an Astra owner and late to this thread, I read the entire thread and may be helpful from another Saturn model's point of view. I'll try not to be long winded as I can at times when explaining some issues.

I probably read the thread when you posted it but never followed it since I don't own an Astra. I do have an L300 and our two models may share one thing in common. If your low beam lights are projectors and not reflector lights and are DRLs (daytime running lights), L300's use the same low beam projector lights as DRLs. Like yours, mine use plain halogen bulbs. After being intrigued with HID lighting and trying Sylvania UltraStars (one burned out around 3yrs), I researched my low beam lighting circuit and finally discovered true plug n' play for HID lights without any modifications to existing wiring. All I had to do was locate and mount the ballasts and plug in wiring. NO blinding opposing traffic at all and road signs are illuminated, including the large overhead highway signs. I retain DRL lighting as a plus because I appreciate headlights as an added safety to wandering drivers insisting on crossing the single and double yellow lines, wandering back onto their side of the street/roads as they see my headlights. Apparently, the dumbasses around NYC still choose to use their cellphones or are too lazy to maintain lane discipline. I think daytime running lights help but that's just my opinion.

I took the longest time to search for information about hid conversion and had to study my wiring circuits carefully as I wanted to retain DRLs while having better lighting. Sylvania UltraStars have a short life since our low beams are used for daytime and night time lighting, shortening their useful life. And they didn't provide any better lighting around NYC (we do have street lights). Once I understood the difference between reflector and projector light housings, I found I already had projector lights (low beams only) but GM didn't want to install HID lights in them. GM simply put in halogen bulbs. Back when HIDs were very expensive and L300's debuted, hid bulbs were probably expensive so GM probably kept costs down by using halogens. Projectors, as other members here in the Astra forums know, have the cutoff plate inside the projector housing to deliberately cut off the upper beam pattern. Without this cutoff plate the projector lights are high beams. I have 55w low and high beams and the cutoff is obvious when I shine low beams onto a wall. A distinctive horizontal cutoff line is seen with my stock bulbs, a testament to ensuring the upper beam pattern won't blind opposing traffic. It remains the same with HID lamps except more light is thrown out. I bought HIDs from HIDextra at low cost since pricing has dropped tremendously to make them competitive to halogen bulbs. My halogens still worked after 10yrs but I wanted more lighting for aging eyes but refrained from jumping into HIDs until I researched all I could to ensure a simple conversion without blinding anyone yet retain DRLs.

According to at least three Astra members here, converting their low beams to HIDs seems similar to what I did to my L300. I thought (and tried) capacitors would help but they interfered with DRL function (disabling DRLs) until I discovered leaving them out of the circuit allowed full DRL operation.

The easiest way to tell the difference between HID compatible projector from reflector light housings are two things.

1-Projector light housings are smaller in diameter and you cannot see the bulb.

2-Reflector light housings (cannot use HID lights) have easily seen bulbs and are larger in diameter.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2017, 05:18 PM   #33
nicolas_p
Senior Member
nicolas_p has a spectacular aura aboutnicolas_p has a spectacular aura about
 
nicolas_p's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: St Catharines, Ontario
Posts: 1,251
 

2009 Astra XR
2008 Astra XE
Default Re: Headlamps improper for night driving

Order a canbus compatible HID kit


...
09 Vauxhall Astra XR3/STD
18" Team Dynamic MonzaR rims
Eibach Sportline, Whiteline BHR75Z swaybar and EBC Rotors
CD30 Mp3, Insignia jets, vxR surround, sharkfin antenna, Spoiler, Tint

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to nicolas_p's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help nicolas_p reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
nicolas_p is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2017, 05:40 PM   #34
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 43,523
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Headlamps improper for night driving

^ That's three times the current price of basic hid light kits. When I attempted to use my setup including a capacitor add on, it didn't work and was sensed as a blown headlight. After experimenting to frustration, I decided to remove them and ran the connectors from hid ballast directly to existing wiring. I was pleasantly surprised to find out the existing dropping resistor used for DRLs is used by the bcm to detect lights and turned them on immediately. No capacitor mod, no resistor, no extra relays. Simply plug n' play but did have to hang the two ballasts nearby. Installed a few months ago and still works, DRLs, automatic nighttime lighting, etc. True plug n' play without additional circuitry mods. $60 I calculated about three to five years before lamps burn out and prices for replacements are already lower the halogen bulbs. If they last longer than five years, they've paid for themselves.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2017, 04:20 PM   #35
nicolas_p
Senior Member
nicolas_p has a spectacular aura aboutnicolas_p has a spectacular aura about
 
nicolas_p's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: St Catharines, Ontario
Posts: 1,251
 

2009 Astra XR
2008 Astra XE
Default Re: Headlamps improper for night driving

The kit is priced higher because it is fully warrantied and even the bulbs have a guaranty. I had one ballast go bad on my truck and they replaced it without question and even asked for the old one back to run tests on it to see what failed. Theres always a difference in buying cheap fleebay stuff versus name brand. I had a set of ebay ballast and bulb; I can tell you the morimoto is a lot brighter and has better lighting pattern. Their products go through a lot of testing to make sure they work for a long time

...
09 Vauxhall Astra XR3/STD
18" Team Dynamic MonzaR rims
Eibach Sportline, Whiteline BHR75Z swaybar and EBC Rotors
CD30 Mp3, Insignia jets, vxR surround, sharkfin antenna, Spoiler, Tint

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to nicolas_p's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help nicolas_p reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
nicolas_p is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2017, 05:25 PM   #36
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 43,523
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Headlamps improper for night driving

Well, there's only so much for testing and quality construction before it becomes hype. I do agree about quality but you did mention failure, with a warranty that replaced a faulty unit. And yes, there are fleabay stuff that are questionable. The ones I bought aren't from 'fleabay' and bought direct from the company with a warranty too. In my case, they're relatively new, without issues and were true plug n' play. While I did notice cheap chrome plated plastic for electrical parts, probably done as cost savings but doesn't affect lighting, The only concerns I had was the lack of complete water resistance. A simple use of sealant seems to work. My reason for buying a relatively low cost HID light system was not to buy into expensive units no better than the basic ones with virtually the same lamps. The differences may be the circuit boards and sealant used to weather proof them from normal exposure. The analogy may be one set is the Optima brand while the rest are various name brand batteries. I don't see any advantage when comparing batteries as the costs seem to pan out with staying with one Optima battery compared to replacing a good five year battery twice. I can't justify buying an Optima battery. This has not a testimony for or against Optima batteries as they are quality and also very expensive.

I presented my personal experience as one example for a low cost effective upgrade to HID lighting without spending more than I think they're worth for whatever length of time I expect them to last to the OP for consideration. My calculations for my use having them run for DRL and night time use is approximately 3-5 years and if they last longer before a ballast or lamp blows, I feel they're worth the low cost. Spending three times more simply means they're not worth it in my case for a car that's already over 13 yrs old. As I see it, HIDs were the most expensive headlight systems costing well over $1500 when they were factory installed as the first upgrades to stock lighting systems back in the '80s-'90s. I still remember when new car lots were targets of thieves removing these hid lights for resale in the NYC area as well as around the country. New factory hid lighting. Fast forward to almost every country selling hid lights in competition for low costs and conversions and we have a market that caters to everyone buying at any price point whether low quality to highest.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 02:16 PM   #37
Red5
Junior Member
Red5 is on a distinguished road
 
Red5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Nashville
Posts: 23

2008 Astra XR
Default Re: Headlamps improper for night driving

If anyone mentioned this I missed it. Vertical beam adjustment is as easy as falling down if you have a 6mm hex-key. I just play with them until I'm happy in a parking lot when it's dark (no one has flashed me with high beams in protest yet).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg PAX side beam height adjustment.JPG (103.5 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Driver side beam height adjustment.JPG (91.9 KB, 10 views)

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Red5's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Red5 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Red5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Improper 2nd and 3rd Gear Ratio jamesgann0129 S-Series Tech 3 05-02-2012 03:33 PM
Night time driving: factory headlights too bright? pix Astra General 34 01-13-2010 07:37 PM
Should the green DRL light be on when driving at night? molinee General Saturn Discussion 4 11-02-2006 12:04 PM
Piston Soak Last Night- Vibrates Today Driving? Leadsled Coupe S-Series General 7 10-27-2005 01:15 PM
Code 26: PCM detects improper voltage on Quad Driver Ciruit 92SL1Mann S-Series General 14 04-13-2004 04:55 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:15 PM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.