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Old 10-19-2020, 08:28 PM   #41
93 SL1 Canada
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiex191 View Post

This is from page 9 of my thread.
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...=234273&page=9

The bolts for the trailing arms screw into captive fasteners. But, when they rust bad enough, they shatter the rust and the nut spins.

It can be welded and repaired, as at least a couple of our intrepid members have shown, in the links I shared. If you are up for it - go for it. If you are not, then once a trailing link breaks you are screwed.
Wow Waiex, those are great pictures from your thread. I've never seen a bolt removed by drilling it like that. Very clever.
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Old 10-19-2020, 11:12 PM   #42
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

What is the arm shown in these photos? Should I replace it as well?
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Old 10-20-2020, 12:13 AM   #43
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

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Originally Posted by 93 SL1 Canada View Post
Wow Waiex, those are great pictures from your thread. I've never seen a bolt removed by drilling it like that. Very clever.
Thanks. Panic is the mother of many inventions.

Regarding the last two pictures, those are the control arms. They are a wear item, not super expensive, and a good thing to replace based on how they look. Plus you will be taking so much stuff apart it would be a shame to not replace them. I made that mistake once.
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Old 10-20-2020, 04:25 AM   #44
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

I'd say no..... that's way worse than my car, and I'm wanting to get into something else because of rust.
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Old 10-20-2020, 10:09 AM   #45
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

Okay, thanks. Do I need to go to a wrecker, or can I get them new?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiex191 View Post
Thanks. Panic is the mother of many inventions.

Regarding the last two pictures, those are the control arms. They are a wear item, not super expensive, and a good thing to replace based on how they look. Plus you will be taking so much stuff apart it would be a shame to not replace them. I made that mistake once.
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Old 10-20-2020, 10:56 AM   #46
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

You can get them new anywhere. I used Mevotech ones with grease fittings from Rock Auto. Member trottida has also had good luck with them. I am still chasing a clunk and not sure if it is the Mevotech parts. Others have had failures with that brand. I'd probably get Moog next time.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...trol+arm,10401
...
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Old 10-20-2020, 05:54 PM   #47
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

Hi Folks, I know it's better to get a Southern US part, but I'm really time-limited here. I need to get a new engine cradle in the car before the snow flies, which could be as early as a week or two. I found on a website two engine cradles which are local: one is a "2001 Engine Cradle/Rear Crossmember Saturn S Series", and the other is "2002 Engine Cradle/Rear Crossmember Saturn S Series". Is the only difference between these and my 1993 the rad mount? Is everything else the same?
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Old 10-20-2020, 11:05 PM   #48
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

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Originally Posted by 93 SL1 Canada View Post
Hi Folks, I know it's better to get a Southern US part, but I'm really time-limited here. I need to get a new engine cradle in the car before the snow flies, which could be as early as a week or two. I found on a website two engine cradles which are local: one is a "2001 Engine Cradle/Rear Crossmember Saturn S Series", and the other is "2002 Engine Cradle/Rear Crossmember Saturn S Series". Is the only difference between these and my 1993 the rad mount? Is everything else the same?
The transmission dog bone mount bracket is on the subframe on 92/93. It was moved over to the frame rail for 94-02. In theory, the bracket that’s on your current subframe could be removed swapped over to the 94+ subframe. I have no experience doing this but the bolt holes for the bracket should still be there on the 94+ frames.

I’m not sure what your budget is for this project, but if you have the money I would replace the 2 dog bone mounts while the subframe is being swapped. Looking at your pictures, the dog bone mount you currently have is the old design. Saturn switched to the current one in 98. They are probably pretty tired and due for a replacement as well.

Your current radiator will fit, it just may need some zip ties to be securely held in place. You could also buy a 94+ radiator and not have to worry about the mounting problem. (The a/c condenser will also have to be replaced if you do go this route)
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Old 10-20-2020, 11:41 PM   #49
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

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Originally Posted by Zeebins View Post
the bracket thatís on your current subframe could be removed swapped over to the 94+ subframe. I have no experience doing this but the bolt holes for the bracket should still be there on the 94+ frames.
Okay. If the bolt holes for the bracket aren't there on the 94+ subframe, could the bracket be welded on, or would that be a safety risk?

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I would replace the 2 dog bone mounts while the subframe is being swapped. Looking at your pictures, the dog bone mount you currently have is the old design.
Is the dog bone the same as the control arm? I located new control arms on RockAuto. But if I buy a 2001 or 2002 engine cradle, should I buy control arms for that year (instead of 1993), and if I do, will they mount properly at the other end?

Thanks!
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Old 10-20-2020, 11:56 PM   #50
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

If the bolt holes aren’t there you could just drill them yourself. Welding would also work, but it would be much harder to remove again in the future if needed.

This is the dog bone mount, also known as the torque strut mount. https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...rut+mount,5556


Control arms are the same for all S-Series, so it won’t matter which year you buy them from
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Old 10-20-2020, 11:59 PM   #51
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

I would not be concerned with welding or bolting the old dogbone bracket onto your new subframe. The dogbones are not the same thing as the control arms.

Dogbones are properly called torque strut mounts.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...rut+mount,5556
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Old 10-21-2020, 07:42 AM   #52
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

I'm surprised nobody has commented on the dogbone; it looks to be bent. The center section is usually straight.
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Old 10-21-2020, 10:27 AM   #53
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

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I would not be concerned with welding or bolting the old dogbone bracket onto your new subframe.
If the newer subframe lacks a mount for the dogbone bracket, what can I do about this?

Thanks!
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Old 10-21-2020, 10:47 AM   #54
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

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If the newer subframe lacks a mount for the dogbone bracket, what can I do about this?

Thanks!
Has anybody out there put a newer subframe in a 92-93 SL1? How did you mount the transmission dogbone?
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Old 10-21-2020, 10:57 AM   #55
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

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I'm surprised nobody has commented on the dogbone; it looks to be bent. The center section is usually straight.
I was about to say that that’s just how the first design mounts are, but you’re right. It is supposed to be straight. I’ve seen others with a bend like that before so I just assumed it was normal. Guess the aluminum gets soft over the years, or just can’t handle the torque like steel can.

http://www.evilplastic.com/mounts-a.htm
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Old 10-21-2020, 04:34 PM   #56
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

When I replaced mine on my Vue a couple years ago, I went to Texas and got one. zero rust.

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=234668

This fall I repaired the rusted out front cradle mounts.

http://www.1999southwind.com/toad-20...#ENGINE_CRADLE

..
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Old 10-21-2020, 10:05 PM   #57
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeebins View Post
I was about to say that thatís just how the first design mounts are, but youíre right. It is supposed to be straight. Iíve seen others with a bend like that before so I just assumed it was normal. Guess the aluminum gets soft over the years, or just canít handle the torque like steel can.

http://www.evilplastic.com/mounts-a.htm
I better put a new one in! I'll keep the bent one in the museum.
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Old 10-21-2020, 10:06 PM   #58
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

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Originally Posted by waiter21 View Post
When I replaced mine on my Vue a couple years ago, I went to Texas and got one. zero rust.

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=234668

This fall I repaired the rusted out front cradle mounts.

http://www.1999southwind.com/toad-20...#ENGINE_CRADLE

..
I wish I could drive down and get a rust-free cradle. Unfortunately the border is closed. I will have to have it shipped.... probably cost a lot.
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Old 10-21-2020, 10:11 PM   #59
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

Here's some more pictures of the underside.
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File Type: jpg IMG_3050.jpg (176.4 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3076.jpg (137.3 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3098.jpg (150.6 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3170.jpg (169.4 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3171.jpg (160.4 KB, 7 views)
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Old 10-21-2020, 10:13 PM   #60
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

These pictures include the rear subframe (if I am understanding this part correctly).
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File Type: jpg IMG_3175.jpg (160.0 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3178.jpg (156.8 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3192.jpg (154.6 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3196.jpg (160.0 KB, 8 views)
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