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Old 10-18-2020, 12:20 AM   #21
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

So if you can't undo the bolts for the drag links:




I would not bother. Unless you are up for cutting out and welding new drag link mounts in.

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=266810

https://youtu.be/g6QdDvxVfCQ
...
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Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
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Old 10-18-2020, 10:21 AM   #22
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

Consider getting some WoolWax and coating your new parts. Just discovered this stuff last year and love it.
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Old 10-18-2020, 10:25 AM   #23
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

Thanks. I have what is probably a dumb question: The rust and rot around the mounting area for this bracket, is that actually the frame, or is the frame underneath it?
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Old 10-18-2020, 11:30 AM   #24
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

Quote:
Originally Posted by 93 SL1 Canada View Post
Thanks. I have what is probably a dumb question: The rust and rot around the mounting area for this bracket, is that actually the frame, or is the frame underneath it?
I guess I'd call it a frame. Definitely a structural part of the unibody. Here is what it looks like from the top.


This is from page 9 of my thread.
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...=234273&page=9

The bolts for the trailing arms screw into captive fasteners. But, when they rust bad enough, they shatter the rust and the nut spins.

It can be welded and repaired, as at least a couple of our intrepid members have shown, in the links I shared. If you are up for it - go for it. If you are not, then once a trailing link breaks you are screwed.
...
Bryan Cotton
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Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
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Old 10-18-2020, 01:53 PM   #25
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

Those fuel straps definitely need to be replaced. The trailing arm mounts arenít looking too good either. How are the rear door sills looking?
...
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Old 10-18-2020, 08:37 PM   #26
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

I replaced the 'powertrain cradle' on my '97, and have just finished buying, cleaning, and painting a recently acquired junkyard subframe for my 2000SW.

I believe the 'rear subframe' in most of the listings is the rear axel suspension.
...............

I know NUTTING about the pre-1994 subframes....

.......................................
As you observed, the rust damage is spotty. Most of the underbody is in excellent condition (suggests minimum driving in salty conditions). Most of that rust occurred while the car was idle, after driving in some salty environs.
As Zeebins suggests, the rear doorsill condition is worth checking ... but I say it is yet OK. If so, paint/por10 or otherwise preserve it.
..............

The trailing arm attachments, as image 3134&3180 are an issue that may need to be addressed, as Waiex suggests.
I ... err... abandoned my trusty '97 due to the area where the trailing arms attach (also the place, at aft end of 'rocker panels', where rear seatbelt anchors), having been undermined by rust. BUT, in that car, the entire underbody had become dust-like, due to pervasive rust. (Its final disposition was an autobody shop, where one of the employees took an interest in it!)

So the trailing arm attachments can be repaired by qualified/determined personnell. I would say your car is likely worth the investment -- ONLY
because the bulk of the underbody is near pristine. It is possible/likely that the captive nuts and sealtbelt attachment on your car are yet intact, and may just need new. painted trail arms installed with new grade 10.9 bolts
(and neverseize)!


You should consider occasional rinsing of the underbody, and the application of protective coatings (Por10/Rustoleum/Pettit Rustblock, etc, etc), as a PREVENTIVE treatment to avoid further reclamation effort.
....................

But a replacement engine cradle/front-subframe will cure almost all issues in the front of the car.
................

I just bought a subframe from a local junkyard, which had been imported from
SouthCarolina/Georgia, I believe, because under the oil residue, was grey fine particulate, which i identified tentatively as CLAY which is abundant in the SouthEast U.S.A. I had to pay $250 for it!! But after a LOT of cleaning effort, it turned out to be near-new condition, as concerns rust. All that is now covered with several coats of protective paint. Bachands and some other guys have done an impressive job with Por10.
..........

Do take a few minutes to investigate the condition of the LONG steel lines feeding the Rear Brakes. Fuel lines & tank are plastic. Fuel Filler tube may need paint on forward aspect.
...........

Both the engine cradles i purchased used from junkyards included controlling arms and the stabilizer bar. I cleaned and painted the stabilizer bars. I used the control arms which 'came with' the '97 subframe ... but the TRW arms which were attached to my 2000 junkyard cradle had LOOSE balljoints, so I plan to install new arms.
....

You might have a mechanic to attempt loosening/replacing the attachment bolts for the trail arms... do inspection of the structural integrity of the vicinity of the attachment, and, based on that condition, junk the car, or decide to fix that weak point.

The rear doorsill is another Go-NoGo decision node.

I would replace the rear suspension (aka subframe) as well, if plan to keep the car until used Teslas are cheap !
......

While the car is on lift at mechanic's have the fastenings for the Front and Rear subframes loosened with the impact wrench, as those might be a buzz-kill, too.
..................

New aftermarket fuel straps are available.
Clean, paint, undercoat... install.
The attachment 'well' for the straps is another situation that can be rectified by a motivated body shop with welding gear and stock ... but i think yours is yet OK.

It is best to examine all the weak points before drowning in the misery.
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Old 10-18-2020, 11:15 PM   #27
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

Thanks for the tip! I didn't check this - did not open the back door. I'll be working away from the car until next weekend, so I'll check it then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeebins View Post
Those fuel straps definitely need to be replaced. The trailing arm mounts arenít looking too good either. How are the rear door sills looking?
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Old 10-18-2020, 11:33 PM   #28
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

Thank you very much for this awesomely detailed reply! This is great!

If the bolts (front/rear subframes, or trailing arm) won't gracefully loosen, do we just bust them off, or is it time to scrap the vehicle?

The car hasn't been driven regularly in a several years; she's been stored indoors (unheated). The rot was first noticed by my mechanic one spring, after she had been frozen in a block of ice all winter. (I was living on Georgian Bay, and the ice and snow storms there are bad. Once the car was frozen in a block of ice, I figured it would damage it more to try to smash through two feet of ice, than to leave it there).

I've tried to have the car oil sprayed ("Krown rust control") every year, and I think that has really helped save the body. Too bad about the subframe, etc.

Gas tank: Is the 93 gas tank also plastic? If I fill the tank right up, I leak gas, so I suspect the filler tube may leak, or somewhere in the upper part of the tank.

Fuel lines and brake lines: I will try to have a look (I only have stands - no access to a hoist right now).

Thanks!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomM96 View Post
I replaced the 'powertrain cradle' on my '97, and have just finished buying, cleaning, and painting a recently acquired junkyard subframe for my 2000SW.

I believe the 'rear subframe' in most of the listings is the rear axel suspension.
...............
It is best to examine all the weak points before drowning in the misery.
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Old 10-18-2020, 11:35 PM   #29
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiex191 View Post
I guess I'd call it a frame. Definitely a structural part of the unibody. Here is what it looks like from the top.

.
Thanks! Now I can see, it is definitely structural.
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Old 10-19-2020, 12:44 AM   #30
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

Quote:
Originally Posted by 93 SL1 Canada View Post
Gas tank: Is the 93 gas tank also plastic? If I fill the tank right up, I leak gas, so I suspect the filler tube may leak, or somewhere in the upper part of the tank.
Every S-Series 91-02 had a plastic fuel tank (thank god lol)

It’s not uncommon for the filler next to get rusty and start leaking. The rubber hose that connects the filler neck to the tank could also be cracking and have a split in it somewhere that would leak.

First pic I had taken literally a week before it started leaking from the straight section. The second is of the cracked hose that came up a year later.

Avoid spectra premium if you can if you do decide to replace anything. That hose got so bad it started leaking after only one year. Also had to get another filler neck from them under warranty because their corrosion resistance coating had pretty bad surface rust after one winter.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg FC2C344F-E58B-4B96-8E93-5C9655A61713.jpg (149.3 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg 791D3C10-2053-4ECB-B56D-709CC6D12B9D.jpg (148.5 KB, 8 views)
...
97 SL2, auto, 121K miles

Last edited by Zeebins; 10-19-2020 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 10-19-2020, 01:02 AM   #31
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

OK, so spraying the preservative oil on the underbody helped a lot.

But that may be masking some issues.

It is easy to spend a LOT of time/effort/material on hand crafted, welded repairs to auto bodies; so you want to inspect and assess / triage
--- is this thing worth it (maybe a 2014 Cruz is more like it) !


> The rear suspension/axel assembly is likely useable as is.

< The trailing arm mount will be useable until something breaks loose:
(there are several reports of them fracturing, which compromises handling & safety).
Operation 'until failure' is efficient before the failure; it might strand you
like at Georgian Bay (or Hudson's Bay).

More important than re-fastening, or renewing the trailing arms, is assessing
the structural integrity of the attachment point forward, of the arms.

The bolts may be frozen; treatment with penetrating oil may free them.
Also, the mounting securing the captive nuts may be rusted out ... or
perfectly intact.
If the mounting is intact, it may be necessary to Heat the vicinity to free up the fastening. This may compromise the strength of the attachment.
Or the captive nuts may get replaced. COSTS MOUNT.

The engine cradle is a serviceable replacement part. It is fully justified IFF the car chassis is intact. If the doorsills and the trailing arm attachments are shot, maybe a different car chassis would be a better bargain/investment.

A tiny ball peen hammer or a punch, or heavy pliers can be used to 'tap' the
surfaces of the undercarriage to assess their 'soundness'. On my '97 a part of the underbody near the trailing arm attachment offerred no resistance to my tap, not long before the car's demise. I stuffed plastic sheet with wet RTV into the aperture, to retard further saltwater ingress.

DO CAREFUL INSPECTION, only then decide on a plan of action.

As a driver of an antique vehicle for which many replacement parts are no longer stocked by the manufacturer, the ownership is of questionable value.
Only a thorough inspection will permit a rational decision to abandon or repair the rig.
"Body work" tends to be expensive; once the underbody starts to rust, it is en route to dust.

The forward subframe is not a big deal. The trailing arm might not need immediate attention. But it is senseless/expensive to begin substantial repairs
without a comprehensive assessment of the Value -costs/benefits- of alternatives.
..........

> If I fill the tank right up, I leak gas, so I suspect the filler tube may leak, or somewhere in the upper part of the tank.

Both my '97 & 2000 smell gaseous when tank topped off, OK at 7/8s full.
O-ring seal to fuel line in engine compartment was issue on '97.

I don't know the construction of the tank in your car... in the foto it looks like the plastic in my '97.
...............

It might be worth paying your mechanic to raise the car on a lift, and do an inspection with you present, to assess the ongoing value of the mission.
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Old 10-19-2020, 09:21 AM   #32
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

Thanks! Good thing the tanks are plastic!

Are the filler tubes available aftermorket?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeebins View Post
Every S-Series 91-02 had a plastic fuel tank (thank god lol)

Itís not uncommon for the filler next to get rusty and start leaking. The rubber hose that connects the filler neck to the tank could also be cracking and have a split in it somewhere that would leak.
.
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Old 10-19-2020, 10:07 AM   #33
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

> Are the filler tubes available aftermorket?

Some are ... there are variations in design for different years.

Zeebins noted that the Spectra Premium tube (and hose) deteriorated within a year. The hose issue would have been of material composition. A lot of elastomers originating from Asian sources since the Great Recession were
not of proper specified composition.

Some years of the fuel filler tube were plastic composition, which is very resistant to both chloride corrosion, and sand abrasion.

Steel tubes are subject to (a) sand abrades away most superficial coatings,
which (b) leaves the naked steel vulnerable to immediate deterioration
when exposed to just a little roadsalt.


The steel fill tube on my '97 was rusty on forward side. I scraped/sanded off most of the rust; painted with Rustoleum damproof red primer, then a topcoat, follower by smearing the outside of the tube with GE RTV silicone, using 'fingerpainting' technique acquired in primary school. I should mention that washing the compromised steel surface with first detergent (liquid hand solution) followed by several rinses, last with purified water (distilled/deionized/reverse-osmosis) should precede the application of any protective paint coatings. Most (but not all) spray paints are only decorative, and will not protect against water&salt spray.

Rubber/plastic are not abraded by sand like rigid steel... the softer materials absorb the sand impact without deterioration. The GE silicone coating also
prevents any moisture from penetrating to the paint.


Concerning the 'rubber' hose intermediating between the tank and filler tube:
If it hasn't leaked prior disassembly -- and does not demonstrate deterioration, as cracking, it can oft be reused following some cleaning, and careful installation without preloading (tighten clamps After carefully positioning in stress-free attitude). Some cracks outboard of the hoseclamp are acceptable.

As Zee discovered, bad material creates big inconvenience ... so maybe source at NAPA or an American multinational.
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Old 10-19-2020, 10:21 AM   #34
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

I never knew that some S-series had plastic filler necks. Wonder why they would switch to metal that would eventually rust up north. Painting the new filler neck with a good quality rust resistant paint is a must in my opinion, regardless of brand. Itís just nice peace of mind knowing that it will hold up far better than whatever it gets coated with from the factory.

A local auto parts store should be able to get a custom hose made to connect the neck to the tank, except the tank end of the hose is a larger diameter then the neck end. Iím not sure if itís possible for them to recreate that with generic hose
...
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Old 10-19-2020, 10:51 AM   #35
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomM96 View Post
--- is this thing worth it (maybe a 2014 Cruz is more like it) !

I've had a 2011 and a 2014 Cruze both new on 36 month lease. Liked them both.
The 2011 had a lot of warranty visits, the 2014 none at all.
From what I read in the Cruze forums, the 1.4 turbo seems to have a lot of problems as the miles accumulate. But it's got nice performance, great fuel economy, and the car has a quiet ride and really good handling.

The 1.8 non turbo is probably better for longevity but doesn't have quite the power or economy of the 1.4.
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Old 10-19-2020, 03:07 PM   #36
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

Thanks Bill Murray-
I noticed the powerplants kept getting larger in the Cruzes, i think over 200HP!

It is standard practice to not educate consumers on the technical aspects of their purchases... I wonder if the turbo problems resulted from hot shutdowns?

It is best to let an engine idle for a minute or two before turning OFF, as IFF the engine has run hot/high-output and is shut off, the hot shaft in the turbo will boil off its oil, gaining a coat of 'coked' carbon, which creates new issues.

OR, just let the engine run at low output during the minutes approaching the parking place.

@ Zeebins
> I never knew that some S-series had plastic filler necks.

Me neither.
12 years ago i drove around about three hours to local wrecking yards, looking for a replacement for the fuel filler on my '97. Before the outing I telephoned the local Saturn dealer for a price quote on a new filler tube.
Price was $55+ sales tax.

After 3 hours I arrived at the junkyard with a '93 SW, No Rust at all!
I pull the fuel filler, and walk into the office with my part in hand. The counterperson asks for $75 ... and (I'm hungry for lunch, dust & flea covered) a small temper tantrum develops. I returned the tube to the car, drove home, scraped/cleaned/painted the old filler tube, and thought badly
of my shopping experience.

Some days later, I looked up the prices on several years of Sat S series;
I see lots of variation -- some priced $150--$230 range. The plastic were expensive... and the junkyard price of $75 was reasonable for those years!

After the second paint coat dried, I fingerpainted a GE Silicone RTV cover
on the front side, and the filler worked fine until i abandoned the car in 2017.
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Old 10-19-2020, 08:09 PM   #37
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

Quote:
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After the second paint coat dried, I fingerpainted a GE Silicone RTV cover .
That is a great idea. I use GE silicone caulking on the house and it is indestructable. I'll try making a fingerpainted cover.

One big problem for me is that the car is still up north, out on a farm, far from a mechanic's garage, and I am down in the city. One solution is to drive the car home to the city, where I can take it to my mechanic.
BUT IS THE CAR SAFE ENOUGH TO DRIVE?.... It's about a 2 hour drive on the highway.

I will attach some of the uglier pictures of the cradle next....
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Old 10-19-2020, 08:12 PM   #38
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

Some pictures of the worst part of the cradle. Is it safe to drive?
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Old 10-19-2020, 08:13 PM   #39
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

More pictures of bad areas. Is it safe to drive?
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Old 10-19-2020, 08:25 PM   #40
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Default Re: Need a Front subframe

Quote:
Originally Posted by 93 SL1 Canada View Post
More pictures of bad areas. Is it safe to drive?
I vote it's not safe. Pretty scary actually.
...
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