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Old 01-04-2020, 12:52 AM   #21
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Default Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

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Old 01-04-2020, 12:53 AM   #22
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Default Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

Well, I wasn't as lucky as I'd hoped I might be. The P0507 came back so I replaced the IACV yesterday. I decided not to clear the DTCs after installing the IACV. It immediately turned off the SES telltale lamp, but the code remains in the memory. I've put on about 145 miles since installing it and I'm waiting/HOPING for the PCM to cancel out the code. The idle is functioning normally and there has actually been a performance improvement.

I discovered a wonderful thing after cleaning the throttle body. The accelerator pedal response improved significantly! I was beginning to believe that perhaps the engine was "showing its age" for some weeks now. But a freshly cleaned throttle body has turned that idea around. For now, the car has more power at 324K miles than it 323K miles!
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Old 01-07-2020, 12:37 AM   #23
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Default Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

Yesterday, while driving on the freeway I noticed an odd deceleration issue after only a couple of miles. When I'd take my foot off of the accelerator pedal to depress the brake pedal I'd get a slight "kick" as if the transmission were trying to down shift. (I began to think that perhaps one of the solenoids on the valve body was giving me trouble.) Later, I noticed that when using the cruise control it would not hold its setting at all and I'd never had any problems with the cruise control up to that moment. Eventually I noticed some fluctuation of the RPM gauge which suggested that something was amiss there again.

Sure enough, I had the following: 1) a freeze frame and, 2) pending P0507 DTC with no SES lamp illumination. Eventually the event subsided and all went back to normal - no odd "kick" from the transmission when decelerating and the cruise control function was fully restored. This is the first time that this sort of thing has occurred when at higher speed and RPM. So for now, I will wait through some more cycles to see if the DTC clears or remains. Sadly, since this is an intermittent problem the FSM has very little to say and I've replaced the only item it suggests as a culprit within the fuel system. Today's drive for work was uneventful, normal.

With regard to the cruise control operation shutting down while this event was ongoing I take it to mean this: that since the PCM could not verify proper control of the engine RPM and speed it would not allow the cruise control system to take over control of the throttle. This appears to be a built-in "fail-safe" feature.
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Old 01-07-2020, 06:51 AM   #24
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Default Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

I had a similar problem when I bought my car. It turned out to be the speed sensor. on the back side of the trans passenger side. Mine never threw a code, just put me in loop mode so car would only do 10 mph.
FSM should have specs to test that.
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Old 01-07-2020, 05:08 PM   #25
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Default Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

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Originally Posted by pierrot View Post
.... With regard to the cruise control operation shutting down while this event was ongoing I take it to mean this: that since the PCM could not verify proper control of the engine RPM and speed it would not allow the cruise control system to take over control of the throttle. This appears to be a built-in "fail-safe" feature.
If you have service manuals, they describe in long hand what you imagined, the software engineers worked with the EFI system group (if they're in different departments) to develop the smart computer. you just described the smart part of the ecm/pcm - preventing or disconnecting cruise control when a parameter isn't met to prevent any chance of a runaway condition or unintended circumstances from allowing cc to run. There's a list of parameters cc programming uses before its allowed to set and when set, disconnects when one of the parameters isn't met, a requirement to allow cc to operate. When I lost the electronic library, I can't copy, paste or reprint part or whole files to reiterate the list of parameters before cc is allowed or disconnects when in use. If you understand flow charts, electronic computer systems uses a similar flow chart with every conceivable question asked long before a program is created to ensure every possible situation is asked with a yes/no answer to rule out every situation. The US space program is based on this simple yet complicated premise of developing flow charts to ensure accurate monitoring of every parameter before a launch can occur and in the expected sequence leading up to a launch. Unfortunately, all the mice and men cannot predict every situation that led to the Challenger and Apollo 13 disaster. The smart computer is a direct result of smart people gathering together to develop and refine computers to what we have today.

The smart part of computers insofar as cc use goes beyond just monitoring set speed and adjusting as loads increase/decrease to slow/accelerate a vehicle's set speed. Since electronics governs much of our vehicles, taking full advantage of incorporating more data into determining whether or not cc is allowed or not brings more meaning to safer driving most of us aren't aware of. Set it and steer as all we want for cc effectiveness. The hidden goings on in electronics is being monitored so if anything doesn't meet cc programming, its defeated. Some may think its a failure of cc when, as you discovered, isn't allowed when one parameter fails in the list of parameters. Safety. No different from abs; before abs we were allowed to lock up brakes and skid to either a stop or crash but with abs it won't allow brakes to lock and give drivers the option to steer away from an impending crash or crash into something else.......with the last possibility of actually braking to a safe and complete stop without damage. If abs fails internal self checks (ongoing as long as ignition is ON and car moving) it automatically disables itself to prevent interfering with braking as it was before abs - locking up brakes when panic braking occurs. Smart engineering in one form or another.
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Old 01-08-2020, 02:09 AM   #26
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Default Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

Well, Master Freddy - I know it's fdryer, but I'm having fun here since we had a weekend of watching the Lord of the Rings movie trilogy - I have to say that my idea about the cruise control operation being disengaged by the PCM came about by reading other posts you'd created here in SaturnFans. It's helped me to think about how that computer is "thinking."

BTW, what's VCX NANO?
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Old 01-08-2020, 02:14 AM   #27
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Default Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

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I had a similar problem when I bought my car. It turned out to be the speed sensor...
It's an interesting thought to consider. The trouble tree in the FSM makes no mention of the speed sensor in the course of the diagnosis and what it may lead to, but who knows? Perhaps an error with that part could have an impact on my issue...
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Old 01-09-2020, 03:03 PM   #28
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Default Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

One thing thus far is certain...the code won't go away. I was able to get information from Innova by hooking up the scanner to my laptop, connecting it to a program on their website and received detailed information on the failure. One surprise to me is the low temperature at which the DTC P0507 occurs. See the pages attached.
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Old 01-09-2020, 05:49 PM   #29
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Default Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

Was this data taken with a cold or warm engine? Can this Innova reader display cookant temps? When the error occurs, the OBD II system automatically takes a snapshot at the moment the error code is generated, known as freeze frame since signals from every sensor changes dynamically. Sometimes it's difficult to know if the error occurred with a cold engine, during warm-up or after reaching operating temps and may be temperature related. If P0507 it's coolant temperature related, what if the coolant sensor or thermostat becomes faulty. An errant sensor or t-stat can skew program monitoring to create a false error code. The coolant sensor has never been found faulty in the L-series but t-stats do fail. I'm wondering if your t-stat failed and running colder than normal.
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Old 01-10-2020, 01:53 AM   #30
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Default Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

This is from my 2002 fsm.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 9E3CFAD3-B3C0-40E1-BE77-86814C0247A2.jpg (132.3 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg 4A24528E-54B3-436C-A8C2-9D95CDFB5149.jpg (128.3 KB, 4 views)
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Old 01-10-2020, 04:11 AM   #31
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Default Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

Quote:
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Was this data taken with a cold or warm engine?
Although the time stamp on the first page is at 2:19 am (I fast asleep at that time!) for 01/09, the last time that this code was read and had and SES lamp on was yesterday evening, 01/08, 8:19 pm. The engine was still cold and when the freeze frame "locked" in place it obviously occurred before the vehicle was moving as no vehicle speed was recorded. Evening temps here locally are chilly for us - in the mid-40's.

Quote:
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Can this Innova reader display coolant temps?
No, it cannot. It merely displays the codes and the active emission areas which the PCM is monitoring. Looking at the pages of the report one can see that there are several monitors altogether which do not exist in this car's PCM (wherever "not supported" is found in the report).

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When the error occurs, the OBD II system automatically takes a snapshot at the moment the error code is generated, known as freeze frame since signals from every sensor changes dynamically. Sometimes it's difficult to know if the error occurred with a cold engine, during warm-up or after reaching operating temps and may be temperature related. If P0507 it's coolant temperature related, what if the coolant sensor or thermostat becomes faulty. An errant sensor or t-stat can skew program monitoring to create a false error code. The coolant sensor has never been found faulty in the L-series but t-stats do fail. I'm wondering if your t-stat failed and running colder than normal.
Your remark about the coolant temperature made me realize that it wasn't so strange after all to see a low digital reading of it and so I'm happy that you brought attention to it. The time it took for the high engine idle speed to drop down to normal was about four minutes. The idea about a thermostat bearing some relation to this problem has not totally left my thoughts although I find it a vexing idea. Lately, the temperature gauge reading is just to the right of the first hash mark (about "5/16" instead of the more common 3/8 position) so it's slightly lower than normal, but that would also agree with our cooler daytime ambient temps. Further, as I watch the temperature gauge at the dash there is normal fluctuation present, both higher and lower, depending on the time of day and the traffic conditions I find myself in.

Previous reports of thermostats being stuck open (how ever much), or thermostat seals leaking - and thus allowing the antifreeze to move too swiftly through the cooling system - don't seem to apply here because there are common symptoms which aren't present in my situation: the cooling system fans run much longer and more often, and the temperature gauge reading is also below what I am seeing at the dash console. Thus I cannot logically justify a thermostat related failure as a contributing factor in the appearance of the P0507 DTC. Since that is my view presently, the matter of replacing the thermostat and seal - or the seal only - is more like an extra-curricular activity than a required pursuit. The vexing part is that there is this lingering question mark about my idea here any way.

As an experiment, today I decided to clear the DTC from the PCM's memory. I'm curious as to how long it may take for the code to reappear.
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Old 01-10-2020, 04:23 AM   #32
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Default Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

Thank you, 02 LW300. Your FSM and mine read the same way. It's comforting to know some things didn't change...but I can't deny that it makes me wish I had a Tech II or Tech III Scan Tool.
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Old 01-10-2020, 04:28 PM   #33
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Default Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

As a general rule about thermostats, the engine doesn't care about ambient temperatures with the exception of starting up to allow the EFI system in determining fuel mixtures. Cold engine starting requires extra fuel as cold air and cold coolant informs the engine computer. The computer then determines fuel mixtures. Under normal conditions, once engine operating temperatures are reached, via its t-stat, the temperature needle doesn't vary. While outside temps can vary from -20F to 125F, the temperature gauge needle should never move since the t-stat is governing overall coolant temps for the engine for optimum emissions and performance. I suspect your t-stat is worn because you notice the temperature needle moving in relatively tepid ambient temperatures. More members with L200s can offer they're temperature gauge observations, including summer and winter values and whether or not their temperature needles move as much as yours does. While not a L200, any vehicle will display the same unwavering temperature needle sitting in one place once operating temps are reached with a good t-stat. A reader displaying coolant temps is the best way to observe it in every temperature condition.

My L300 always shows the needle around the 11 o' clock position whether in freezing NYC winters or hot and humid summers with ac running. All t-stats regulate coolant temps regardless of outside temps. My reader shows between 188F to 200F with the temperature needle sitting in one place. The temperature gauge is only as precise as necessary - letting us know the engine's cold, running fine or overheating. Before EFI systems, this was fine but once EFI systems became complicated with emissions and tighter emissions standards to reduce pollution as much as possible, analog temperature displays are still used for general info until errors related to coolant temps rears its ugly side. P0128 is an easy error code but some may misinterpret the coolant sensor as the fault when the t-stat is more likely to fail. P0507 is about high idling with several things affecting an errant and random high idle. This error code points in a general direction and diagnosing where the fault lies can be difficult.
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Old 01-11-2020, 07:04 PM   #34
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Default Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

You are, of course, correct about the thermostat's working as not being influenced by ambient temperatures. However, my temperature gauge does show differences related to that and how fast I'm traveling. For example, today as I was returning from Downtown L A driving at normal freeway speeds the temp gauge was holding at "5/16." The outside temperature was at 61 degrees F according to the Google weather app. As I transitioned to another freeway and traffic slowed to below 15 mph I watched the temperature gauge level rise to nearly "3/8." After that patch of slowness ended and I was once again traveling at normal freeway speeds the temperature gauge dropped back down to 5/16. If I'd been sitting in slow traffic longer the gauge could've risen to the half way mark as I'd seen it do earlier this week, this past Monday. Conversely, when my car had its only encounter with cold, winter weather in the San Bernardino Mts. the temperature gauge barely made it to the 1/4 (first mark to the right of "cold") after five minutes of sitting and warming up. It remained at that temperature level until it was at lower elevations where ambient temps were higher.

Other interesting events: while driving to work yesterday morning the P0507 DTC reappeared...(great ). After that event I was ready to get myself a replacement thermostat and expect to install it this weekend. Yesterday evening while driving home I plugged in the scanner and it read, "nodtc." Now here was a major surprise! The scanner was flashing an EV symbol which meant that there was an incomplete internal diagnostic of the EVAP system. This morning I plugged in the scanner and had the same result except that the EV symbol was not flashing, meaning that all monitored elements were functioning within normal parameters. Since all was working within normal parameters (at least for today) it suggests that the engine had reached the required operational temperature. While this is good news, I'm not yet ready to say that this problem has been corrected.
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Old 01-11-2020, 10:23 PM   #35
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Default Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

I think you're using the new term 'confirmation bias' to correlate the wandering temperature gauge needle with assumptions of correct t-stat operation. I disagree. The t-stat regulates coolant temps regardless of ambient temps as I stated previously in freezing temps, hot and humid weather with ac running or tepid temps idling in traffic or running way past the speed limit as police are giving chase. The t-stat simply regulates liquid coolant. I believe you're seeing the temperature needle moving around due to the worn t-stat opening sooner than its rated designation so you're seeing the needle move as airflow thru the radiator stops or flows when the car stops or moves. The temperature gauge needle should not move once the cooling system reaches operating temperatures. A worn t-stat is easily seen with a reader capable of displaying actual coolant temps as the ecm/pcm sees it with a digital display for an immediate visual indication. I don't know any other way to convince you to use a reader to display actual coolant temps as regulated by either a functioning or malfunctioning t-stat.

Do you have Autozone, Advance Auto or other auto store allowing free readings with their OBD II readers? It would take less than a minute to plug in a reader, scroll thru the menu and select live parameters to display coolant temps. Presuming you know what the rated t-stat temperature for your L200, either the correct temperature is displayed or not against stock t-stat value.
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Old 01-11-2020, 11:06 PM   #36
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Default Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

Our 2.2 temp is 180. My needle is rock solid after about 2 miles of operation year round. There is an internal rubber seal in the thermostat that lets coolant flow as it fails irregardless of the temperature control part of the thermostat.
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Old 01-12-2020, 01:25 AM   #37
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Default Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

Confirmation Bias...sure, that's a fair description. As I said at the end of my last post, I'm not yet ready to say that this problem has been corrected. The upshot of that is this - if the code appears again I will go after replacing the thermostat. fdryer and 02 LW300, I appreciate your continued contact and replies here. Mille grazie!!
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Old 01-13-2020, 04:10 AM   #38
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Default Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

So I've replaced the thermostat. I also performed a "post mortem" on the thermostat I removed by placing it in preheated water at the stove. I used my Universal brand thermometer to verify the water temperature. The thermostat opened correctly at 180 degrees F. While the poppet was opened I was able to examine its seal. The poppet seal showed no apparent damage or weakness. The same could not be said, however, of the thermostat seal. It felt somewhat squishy and didn't feel tight enough on the thermostat's flange edge. More to come...
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Old 01-14-2020, 08:49 PM   #39
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2000 L-Series 2.2L Sedan
Dizzy Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

We now return with another episode of As the Trouble Code Turns...

When last we'd heard from the intrepid LS1 a new thermostat was installed. The next morning within a mile of leaving its comfortable garage the cooling system fans began to run at high speed...uh oh! The owner did not have the code reader in the car so information couldn't be retrieved. The incident was not long lasting and the rest of the day passed as if nothing had happened.

The next morning - today - the LS1 ran normally. The code reader was brought along and plugged in. It displayed this - nodtc. The owner noticed that the coolant temperature gauge was at a "base" position slightly higher than it had been with the other thermostat since yesterday (regardless of the high fan speeds showing up) though not at 3/8. It tends to hold that position unless the car is being driven in slow traffic when it will show an increase in temperature even up to the middle hash mark.

But while the owner continues his vigil what will happen next? Will the idle speed RPM run high and too long beyond the expected parameters once again as it had previously? Will the PCM share an alert? Will the cooling system fans erupt at high speed, or will days pass by without incident? Stay tuned for the next episode of As the Trouble Code Turns!
...
340,000 miles - Holy canolli!
Joe Biden for POTUS and Kamala Harris for VEEP. What follows if they get their way? A bad economy, weak military, increased terrorism and a greater RED CHINA.
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Old 01-15-2020, 01:26 AM   #40
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2002 L-Series 2.2L Sedan
2002 L-Series 2.2L Sedan
Default Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...

Like sand through an hour glass so are the days of our lives. ....
...
2002 L200/5 loaded, coming attractions B207R and F40, Ion Redline axles will make this work.
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