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Old 04-23-2009, 01:26 AM   #221
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

That's a loaded question that may not have an answer.

The expansion valve is the choke point to establish the high pressure side from the low pressure side. Normally, high pressure automatically builds up almost immediately due to the fact that the e/v holds back liquid R134a while the compressor is trying to suck whatever's in the suction line going all tha way back through the evaporator core to the e/v. When the e/v opens (based on temperature), high pressure liquid R134a is released to expand into the vacuum side, the evaporator core, and as liquid changes to a gas, heat is absorbed immediately from the surrounding tubing. Cooling takes place as heat is removed leaving cold air to blow through. The compressor removes this gas and compresses it, raising its temperature and sends it through the condenser coil to cool off and liquify to a high pressure where it accumulates in the coils and filter/drier on its way to the e/v again. The e/v maintains a certain temperature all the time as best it can if rpm's are kept up. The low pressure side is usually 35psi or more while the high side varies according to outside surrounding temperatures. Anywhere from 150-250psi.

A stuck closed e/v would choke and cut off the a/c cycle; the high side would stay at high pressures and the low side would reflect lower pressures than normal. A stuck open e/v would have both sides at more or less the same pressures. A damaged compressor can go either way; no pressure output (from damaged reed valves that act as one way valves), damaged pistons from contaminated oil, a clogged suction port preventing suction. Even the adjustable bellows that is part of the variable displacement compressors perhaps needing a slight tweak to get it operating. Many different scenarios to contemplate.

Get pressure readings at 2k rpm and idle rpm.

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Old 04-23-2009, 06:57 AM   #222
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

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Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Get pressure readings at 2k rpm and idle rpm.
Will do. Thanks.

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Old 04-23-2009, 10:11 AM   #223
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

Autozone doesn't loan out A/C pressure gauges. Dang. But I will try "turning the screw" on the compressor and see what happens.

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Old 04-23-2009, 01:05 PM   #224
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

Ocala, Fla. Autozone loans out equipment; read post #11 - http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=135552. Apparently each 'zone establishes their own policy!?

Without a set of gauges and using a hand held vacuum gauge(?) you may be able to feel the output side of the compressor for hot compressed gases as well as monitoring the central vent outlets for cold temperatures, at 2k rpm.

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Old 04-23-2009, 01:32 PM   #225
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

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Ocala, Fla. Autozone loans out equipment; read post #11 - http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=135552. Apparently each 'zone establishes their own policy!?

Without a set of gauges and using a hand held vacuum gauge(?) you may be able to feel the output side of the compressor for hot compressed gases as well as monitoring the central vent outlets for cold temperatures, at 2k rpm.
I called two Autozone stores, just because of that policy, but neither loans out compressor gauges. This morning I tried turning the set screw clockwise and it wouldn't budge! It is bottomed out! So, being as careful as I could be, I turned it counter clockwise while draping my hands and arms with a towel, in case that baby blew. Didn't blow but the recommendation was to try turning it 1/8 of a turn at a time and when I got to a full 1 1/4 turns, counter clockwise, without any cold air blowing, I quit.

So, that screw being bottomed out, God knows where the starting point or correct setting should have been on that screw. I may have a full turn or so, just to reach the proper position. Don't know. The compressor got really, really hot to the touch. Are they supposed to do that when operating properly? And to throw salt into the wound------THE DANG GASKET STILL LEAKS! Couldn't believe it. Don't know if it would leak if the compressor didn't get that hot or was possibly under the correct pressure.

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Old 04-23-2009, 02:24 PM   #226
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

HOT to me means extremely high pressure somewhere!? The high pressure output would normally be very hot to the touch as gases are compressed and leaves the compressor. If you Google a R134a temperature/pressure chart, you'll be able to cross reference the temperatures to the equivalent pressures. I memorized the suction side as 30F/35psi (gauge pressure) as the minimum pressure for safely operating at the lowest temperature without incurring freezing conditions. I compare outlet vent temperatures to gauge pressure to correlate operating conditions. The gauges are marked in similar fashion without referring to a temp/pressure chart. The thermal expansion valve automatically regulates to some low temperature but never near freezing. The output side pressure reading is interpreted the same way. Since pressures are absolute, you can see what the expected temperature would be on the gauge. I've done this with R12 and haven't done this with R134a but expect similar results with different temperature/pressure relationships according to each chemical property. Still not rocket science but understandable .

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Old 04-23-2009, 03:50 PM   #227
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

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HOT to me means extremely high pressure somewhere!? .
That's what I thought. Possibly very high temperature on the compressor housing because the intense pressure isn't getting properly ported.

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Old 04-23-2009, 04:20 PM   #228
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

I was about to leave from work so I had to cut short(?) my last post. To continue, a look at the same temp/press. chart reveals that 115F equates to 158psi, 150F correlates to 264psi(!). Measuring outlet temperatures on the fitting should give a rough idea of what the pressure is without gauges. Its better to have gauges as everything is in front of you as temperature and pressures are correlated immediately to compare with FSM charts. All this is assuming a normal operation of a repaired system to bring one back to factory operation. Most repairs done properly ends up good as new. I'm puzzled about this one..................and will need to strain the one cell between my ears for an explanation why this isn't going well.

Was the oil poured into the compressor and compressor rotated by hand several times to distribute the oil internally instead of pooling in one or two cylinders? A sudden power up of pooled oil in any cylinder may damage the reed valves used as a one way valve on the output side of the compressor. A ruined reed valve (bent) allows pressure output to go back into the cylinder immediately instead of being forced out towards the condenser coil. Partial pressure or no pressure would result. It only takes a few quick revolutions of engine torque to ruin reed valves; disassembly is one way to confirm this or a jury rigged plumbing set-up with a pressure gauge to monitor pressure output as an air compressor would be another way. Similar to engine cylinder compression testing.

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Old 04-23-2009, 05:12 PM   #229
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

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Was the oil poured into the compressor and compressor rotated by hand several times to distribute the oil internally instead of pooling in one or two cylinders? A sudden power up of pooled oil in any cylinder may damage the reed valves used as a one way valve on the output side of the compressor. A ruined reed valve (bent) allows pressure output to go back into the cylinder immediately instead of being forced out towards the condenser coil. Partial pressure or no pressure would result. It only takes a few quick revolutions of engine torque to ruin reed valves; disassembly is one way to confirm this or a jury rigged plumbing set-up with a pressure gauge to monitor pressure output as an air compressor would be another way. Similar to engine cylinder compression testing.
I poured one ounce of PAG oil in the low pressure port then immediately rotated the clutch clockwise and counter clockwise a dozen times. Should have taken care of that I would have thought.

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Old 04-23-2009, 06:24 PM   #230
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

Sorry to rehash old issues. I went searching, again, for more information on this Proliance (PLR2388 SD7V16 type?) compressor to find out specifics on its internals. I cannot find any specifics as there are several types being used; variable displacement, vane, and scroll versions. Its difficult to figure out whether its a vdc or vane type. Then there are more differences among makes in type. The reason for the search is to find out what the brass disc does, is it the cause of this problem or is there something else totally unrelated to this disc? The OEM compressor had issues in the past with their refrigerant control valves that one article simply states to remove it completely to allow normal operation. This has nothing to do with your compressor as it has a different profile and adjustment port. Its made me wonder about these compressors and whether or not they're more difficult to understand and troubleshoot. Another compressor type in ackits.com's boards has one member mentioning using much more R134a to force a compressor to start operating. This one is about the vane type that may have stuck vanes in position that won't allow compression of refrigerant. Monitoring with the gauges and adding refrigerant until pressures changed to enable operation and removing the excess refrigerant allowed this compressor to run but did require more refrigerant than needed. Different types of compressors makes it difficult to pinpoint faults if yours is faulty to begin with which brings on issues about rebuilt units. This problem is made even more frustrating when I can't have this in my hands to disassemble to understand the inner workings if I don't have technical drawings and information on internal operation. For me, I'm at a wall without any more information to mull over.

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Old 04-23-2009, 06:53 PM   #231
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Sorry to rehash old issues. I went searching, again, for more information on this Proliance (PLR2388 SD7V16 type?) compressor to find out specifics on its internals. I cannot find any specifics as there are several types being used; variable displacement, vane, and scroll versions. Its difficult to figure out whether its a vdc or vane type. Then there are more differences among makes in type. The reason for the search is to find out what the brass disc does, is it the cause of this problem or is there something else totally unrelated to this disc? The OEM compressor had issues in the past with their refrigerant control valves that one article simply states to remove it completely to allow normal operation. This has nothing to do with your compressor as it has a different profile and adjustment port. Its made me wonder about these compressors and whether or not they're more difficult to understand and troubleshoot. Another compressor type in ackits.com's boards has one member mentioning using much more R134a to force a compressor to start operating. This one is about the vane type that may have stuck vanes in position that won't allow compression of refrigerant. Monitoring with the gauges and adding refrigerant until pressures changed to enable operation and removing the excess refrigerant allowed this compressor to run but did require more refrigerant than needed. Different types of compressors makes it difficult to pinpoint faults if yours is faulty to begin with which brings on issues about rebuilt units. This problem is made even more frustrating when I can't have this in my hands to disassemble to understand the inner workings if I don't have technical drawings and information on internal operation. For me, I'm at a wall without any more information to mull over.
Yes, I know. Wish I lived closer to you---I'd stop by. And like you mentioned, without drawings, etc. how can one possibly trouble-shoot a problem or find out answers to questions? But I appreciate all the time, effort and guidance you've given me through all this time. I've learned a lot about the system so there's one very positive note on the whole process.

I'm still in the process of turning that set screw counter-clockwise and hoping for some results. I'm out 2 1/4 turns now and will go until I fear the screw will pop. Nothing to lose. But I will make sure that I don't run the compressor to the ultimate limit and over heat it to the seizure point. Don't want to get any junk throughout the system. Especially if all I would have to do in the future is buy another compressor.

Again, thank you for all your valuable knowledge. This isn't over yet.

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Old 04-23-2009, 08:24 PM   #232
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

Well, I thought the problem might have started to be solved because when I turned the set screw out to 3 1/4 turns, I started getting "cool" air out of the vents!!!!!!!!!!! I ran inside and got my thermometer and stuck it into the vent and the inside car temp, at the vent, dropped from the 70's into the low 60's. Encouraged by that I turned the set screw out to a total of 4 1/4 turns but there was no improvement and in fact, the temp started to rise.

So I got my little pressure gauge out and right after filling at the garage, the gauge read on the high side of fill. But now, there was next to nothing in the system. It had leaked out. I was thinking that it leaked out all of a sudden because I turned the set screw out too far but there is no evidence of fluid at that screw but under the large body gasket that I changed, it was wet with "greenish-colored" fluid. And I have no evidence of this but it just seemed that now that the compressor seemed to be working, all heck broke loose, as far as the R-134a level was concerned. I should have been checking that pressure as I went along but as I noted earlier, before the compressor was "working" I was losing fluid through the body gasket.

Don't know if the set screw setting is now okay but the pressure won't hold and I lost all my coolant. Don't know if it's worth trying another gasket but re-filling the system over and over again, isn't cost effective. Don't know what to do with this now. I'll have to sleep on this.

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Old 04-23-2009, 09:51 PM   #233
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

Just to be safe---if any of you attempt to adjust this screw, hoping to decrease the A/C temperature, again, beware. Counter clockwise can blow that screw out of the compressor and scald your arm, hand, eyes, etc., not to mention the force of that "cork" flying out. Careful!!!!!!!!!! Besides, there are definite steps you must follow. Example, to mention a few----http://mysite.verizon.net/jjm01/ac/95-T-48.pdf

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Old 04-24-2009, 06:45 AM   #234
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

The greenish color is fluorescent dye that you saw all over the place (in the oil) when opening the rear cover. One of the Saturn techs here stated that GM has been using dye for some time. I would think that this is a minor cost in the scheme of things when it wasn't done in the past and one of the best aids to a/c repair men and women when working with car airconditioning. It was added in older systems when inexperience befuddled those not intelligent enough to know the indications by eye. Never mind that they had a host of tools at their disposal; the simple propane sniffer for R12, electronic sniffer for R12/R134a, ultraviolet lights to illuminate fluorescent dye, etc..

Your warnings about meddling with the side slotted adjustment port is well worded as many will attempt to "meddle" with things as a last ditch attempt to get their failed a/c working when the obvious doesn't present itself.

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Old 04-24-2009, 08:09 AM   #235
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

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The greenish color is fluorescent dye that you saw all over the place (in the oil) when opening the rear cover. One of the Saturn techs here stated that GM has been using dye for some time. I would think that this is a minor cost in the scheme of things when it wasn't done in the past and one of the best aids to a/c repair men and women when working with car airconditioning. It was added in older systems when inexperience befuddled those not intelligent enough to know the indications by eye. Never mind that they had a host of tools at their disposal; the simple propane sniffer for R12, electronic sniffer for R12/R134a, ultraviolet lights to illuminate fluorescent dye, etc..

Your warnings about meddling with the side slotted adjustment port is well worded as many will attempt to "meddle" with things as a last ditch attempt to get their failed a/c working when the obvious doesn't present itself.
Yup, the dye is from one of the cans of R-134a that I had put in the system. And yes to the warning. I know that if I were not getting "cold enough" air from my system, that screw would be awfully tempting to play with.

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Old 04-25-2009, 02:58 PM   #236
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

Well, the compressor is now shot. I tried injecting more R-134a into the system and it steadily built up. About 1 1/2 cans brought the pressure up to 45psi (on my low port gauge---unreliable I know) so I stopped there. I turned the set screw back to the 3 1/4 limit but no cool air. I turned the set screw out to 4 full turns and still nothing-------all the while a "buzzing" was coming from the compressor. Ended up turning out 4 1/2 turns and still no cool air. It was at that moment that I heard something "snap" inside the compressor and watched my little hand pressure gauge drop in pressure like a rock!

Still no cool air but the compressor is still running. I hope that means that there was no "shrapnel" expelled into the car's A/C system! Will look for a new compressor. Do you think I need to flush the system of debris or just hook up a new compressor??

UPDATE: Went back out to the car, just in case, after the "snap" something inside the compressor snapped into place and I was now getting cool air. Long shot I know. Turned the compressor on and all of a sudden "BANG!" All the fluid was escaping through the other, large body gasket. I lost everything in about 10 seconds. Just a little surprised here. Now, since the pressure was too great and the pressure was relieved through a large body gasket, now should I have the system flushed before installing the new compressor? Whew!

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Old 04-25-2009, 03:26 PM   #237
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

If I may take some liberties, "Houston, we have a problem!"

You won't know the extent of the damage until the compressor is removed and you can sample the oil for debris. Take it one step at a time. With a blown compressor you now have an excuse for the autopsy to find out if there was something inherently wrong with the compressor to begin with or if failure resulted from work you did. On the other hand, removing the expansion valve will allow flushing/testing of blocked evaporator coils and condenser coil. Disassembling fittings allows individual flushing with approved solvent for this purpose as well as tell you if anything was blocked to begin with. Removing and plugging the filter/drier will save it for reuse. The removed expansion valve can now be examined up close and personal.

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Old 04-25-2009, 04:55 PM   #238
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

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If I may take some liberties, "Houston, we have a problem!"

You won't know the extent of the damage until the compressor is removed and you can sample the oil for debris. Take it one step at a time. With a blown compressor you now have an excuse for the autopsy to find out if there was something inherently wrong with the compressor to begin with or if failure resulted from work you did. On the other hand, removing the expansion valve will allow flushing/testing of blocked evaporator coils and condenser coil. Disassembling fittings allows individual flushing with approved solvent for this purpose as well as tell you if anything was blocked to begin with. Removing and plugging the filter/drier will save it for reuse. The removed expansion valve can now be examined up close and personal.
And Houston, we ain't gettin home on this one! Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I don't feel too badly about the compressor. I had figured it was no good anyway. My only concern is debris throughout the system.

Yes, I was figuring on at least removing the expansion valve, let alone replacing. And I definitely will plug that NEW drier! Are there step-by-step instructions on the forum on the individual flushing process? But before I flush, I won't have to if the oil from the compressor is debris free, right? All I'd have to do is replace the compressor? Thanks.

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Old 04-25-2009, 07:52 PM   #239
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

Yes, if you do not find any debris/particles floating with a gritty feeling between the fingers, you should be OK for just a compressor replacement. I found Advance Auto's video excellent for a tutorial on flushing how-to's. It may be worth replacing the expansion valve.

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Old 04-25-2009, 07:56 PM   #240
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Yes, if you do not find any debris/particles floating with a gritty feeling between the fingers, you should be OK for just a compressor replacement. I found Advance Auto's video excellent for a tutorial on flushing how-to's. It may be worth replacing the expansion valve.
I'll keep my fingers crossed that the oil is clean! Thanks for the tip on Advance Auto's tutorial too! I'll check it out. But I won't change the expansion valve unless there's debris in the oil or in the lines.

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