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Old 10-26-2004, 01:41 AM   #1
sierrap615
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Wrench P0340/P0341 Troubleshooting S-Series

Most of this came from TSB 98-T-49A, and a few of my tips thrown in.

Both P0340 and P0341 both relate to the Camshaft Position Sensor(I will just call it Cam sensor from now on), the only problem is that the S-Series engines don't have a Cam sensor, not a typical one at least. instead, the DIS module watches when the #4 spark plug fires on the compression cycle and fakes a Cam sensor signal from it. the tricky part is that on a DIS waste spark system, spark plugs fire with their mated cylinders(1/4 and 2/3 in 4 cylinder engines) every time the cylinder is at TDC, regardless of weather the cylinder is on exhaust or compression. However, it takes far more voltage to fire a spark plug on the compression stroke then on the exhaust stroke, due to the compressed air(more air molacules, more air the spark needs to jump, more resistance to spark). The increased voltage needed on the compression stroke is detected by the "#4 sensing circuit" inside the DIS module for the Cam sensor signal. if the resistance of the secondary system is not in the proper range or something else is affecting the voltage draw, the "#4 sensing circuit" will be unable to work properly.

In short, anything worng with the ignition system, bad Cam sensor signal.

Next for the diagnositic, i'm converting this from a graphic map to a text format, so bear with me...

Step 1: remove secondary wires from spark plugs, keep the wires on the coil. measure resistance from #1 wire to #4 wire and then #2 wire to #3 wire. resistance should be 11k ohms to 45k ohms(YIKES thats a wide range)

If resistance is in specs, go to step 2, if not in specs, go to step 3


Step 2: remove secondary wires from the coil packs. check for corrosion on the towers and wires.

If there is corrosion, go to step 4

If not, go to step 5


Step 3: remove secondary wires from the coil packs. check for corrosion on the towers and wires.

If there is corrosion, go to step 4

If not, go to step 6


Step 4: Replace or clean coils and/or wires as nessaciry. Retest to confirm.


Step 5: Remove spark plugs. Check for carbon or abnormal wear and proper gap(0.040 in)

If plugs check out good, go to step 8.

if the plugs are bad, replace as needed and retest to confirm.


Step 6: Measure resistance of individual secondary wires. specs are 1.5k ohms to 15k ohms ( thats what this chart says, but my knowage says 8k ohms is normal, greater then 12k ohms should be replaced)

If wires are in spec, go to step 7

If wires are bad, replace as needed and retest to confirm


Step 7: Measure resistance from tower to tower on the coil packs (hold tight for good reading). Spec is 8K to 15K.

If coils are in spec, go back up to step 5

If coils are bad, replace as needed and retest to confirm


Step 8:(90% of the time i bet the problem is solved by now) Start engine. Perform underhood visual inspection of the ignition system, check for arcing(best done in a dark area, if you are inside a garage, besure the exhaust is vented). Wet DIS module, coils, and secondary wires with salt water to provide optional ground path.(arcing from the wire boot to the valve cover is possible, but would be hidden)

If arcing is present, replace wires or coils as needed and retest to confirm.

If not, go to step 9.


Step 9: Turn ignition off, backprobe J3D03 (Circuit 633, brn/wht wire) at PCM with voltmeter. connect other lead to ground. Turn ignition on, engine off. Measure voltage.

less then 4.5 volts, go to step 10
4.5-5.5 volts, go to step 12
more then 5.5 volts, go to step 11


Step 10. Check connections in circult 633, repair short to ground, retest to confirm


Step 11. Repair short to voltage in circuit 633, retest to confirm.


Step 12. Start engine, at idle observe voltmeter

less then 2.0 volts, replace DIS module, retest to confirm
2.0 - 4.0 volts, problem intermittent
4.0 - 5.5 volts, go to step 13
more then 5.5 volts, go back up to step 11


Step 13. Turn ignition off, backprobe circuit 633 at DIS module with voltmeter, other lead to ground. check voltage.

4.0 volts or less, repair open/high resistance in circuit 633, retest to confirm.
greater then 4.0 volts, go to step 14


Step 14: Inspect terminal on DIS module for looseness or poor connection.

If terminal is bad, repair it
If terminal is good, replace the DIS module.



thats all of the diagnoistic chart, anybody who has done this in the past feel free to throw in your tips/opinons. I would like to add three things:

1. Check the grounding bolt on the DIS module for corrosion.
2. besure the secondary wires are fully seated, you should feel/hear a click
3. use dielectric grease on the coil towers

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Old 11-04-2004, 04:44 PM   #2
raffy
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Default

Great post! I think you've covered most of scenarios with that diagnostic. In most cases, replacing the plugs and/or plug wires should solve this problem. In my case, it was the wires. If your wires have more than 50K miles on them, they probably need to be replaced.

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Old 12-03-2004, 12:55 PM   #3
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Default Re: P0340/P0341 Troubleshooting S-Series

Great info - thank you for help on this apparant common issue. I've improved my situation 100% with new plugs & wires, and also found arcing from the NEW plug wires through the metal brackets that hold them on the valve cover - noticed this when the bracket nuts were off. Removed the brackets temporarily and the engine runs much better but...

Code came back - P0340 - tracked problem to overvoltage at ckt 633 - I have battery voltage there (12-13v) instead of the 5v. I'll check for short to battery in harness tonight - but I think that is low possibility. Am I looking at an ECM problem if harness checks out ok? thanks again.

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Old 12-04-2004, 09:43 AM   #4
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Default Re: ignore last input

Scratch last input - I was probing wrong connector. Everything seems ok for now. Thanks again.

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Old 12-16-2004, 11:53 PM   #5
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Default Re: P0340/P0341 Troubleshooting S-Series

I'm actually dealing with this problem right now. Usually the car bucks/jerks around 15-2000 RPM under load. Feels like a misfire, but the car just falls on its face, almost like 2 cyls are cutting out. I have a feeling its a bad coil pack (1&4 cyl) but I havn't gotten around to fixing it simply because I don't have the time. I could probably use spark plugs too, mine are lookin pretty bad.

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Old 03-01-2005, 06:49 PM   #6
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Default Re: P0340/P0341 Troubleshooting S-Series

ive got the problem with the 341 code. i brought up the flow chart on alldata and it said to disconnect 633 from j3 then reconnect harness to pcm if light comes back on to replace the pcm. well then when i go to start it the light doesnt light up at all when the ign. is in the on position but a code can still be read. the code only appears on start up, if i clear the code and start it up right away its fine and i can go though and drive it and the code doesnt come back. but after i shut it off then try and restart it comes back. any ideas for this?

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Old 03-01-2005, 06:52 PM   #7
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Default Re: P0340/P0341 Troubleshooting S-Series

ooyea my problem happened after the car sat for a month or 2 in the cold weather without starting

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Old 03-01-2005, 10:14 PM   #8
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Default Re: P0340/P0341 Troubleshooting S-Series

for sonic:

i assume you have already checked the plugs/wires/coils?

this code can not be set when the engine is off.

if the code can be read but the SES light is not on, make sure this is a current code and not a history code.

for all others:

i have now posted a wiring diagram for the ignition module - http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/sho...p/photo/18774/

also remember anything that causes a weak spark can throw this codes. the two rare cases i have heard as of late are a leaking valve cover gasket and a clogged cat converter.

as well, any thing that causes a extra strong spark can possibilly cause a code, such as aftermarket parts.

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Old 03-01-2005, 10:43 PM   #9
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Default Re: P0340/P0341 Troubleshooting S-Series

ok 1st the code only sets on start up, i havent had it come up during a drive cycle after the code has been erased. i followed the flow chart i had that said to romove 633 from the connector but that is causing the mil to not turn on when the ign. is in the on position. so i would then check it after a couple start ups with 633 disconnected and found that the mil was (on).
my flow chart went as followed
1-start engine, observe for 0341,is dtc active? YES
2- does engine misfire? NO
3-turn ign. off, remove j3 circuit 633 from pcm connector, reconnect pcm connector, start engine let run for minute, does 0341 set? YES
4- Replace the PCM
does that sound right to you?

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Old 03-02-2005, 12:07 AM   #10
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Default Re: P0340/P0341 Troubleshooting S-Series

PCM is a rare thign to go bad. The codes are set by virtually anything that affects the way the 1-4 ignition circuit fires. Anything that can cause a misfire is suspect. Plugs, wires, injectors, coil pack hold down bolts corroded. The PCM is the last resort.

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Old 03-02-2005, 09:40 AM   #11
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Default Re: P0340/P0341 Troubleshooting S-Series

but if 633 is disconnected, shouldnt it not set a code?

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Old 03-02-2005, 04:36 PM   #12
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Default Re: P0340/P0341 Troubleshooting S-Series

problem fixed. 60$ for coils and module at the junk yard. i had it narrowed down to one or the other new module wouldve cost 204 junk yard had them all together for 60 so not a bad deal

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Old 04-19-2005, 03:58 PM   #13
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Default Re: P0340/P0341 Troubleshooting S-Series

I had my computer scanned and all the codes popped out but was doing the same thing with bucking at low idle...

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Old 10-02-2005, 05:44 PM   #14
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Default Re: P0340/P0341 Troubleshooting S-Series

Quote:
Originally Posted by sierrap615
Turn ignition off, backprobe circuit 633 at DIS module with voltmeter, other lead to ground. check voltage: 4.0 volts or less, repair open/high resistance in circuit 633, retest to confirm. Greater then 4.0 volts, go to step 14.
Thanks for this excellent camshaft sensor circuit diagnostics. My question is in step 13. Do you really mean turn engine OFF? When I turn the key to off I have 0 volts. When key ON then I have 5.02 volts.

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Old 10-03-2005, 07:38 PM   #15
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Default Re: P0340/P0341 Troubleshooting S-Series

Quote:
Originally Posted by sierrap615
Step 13. Turn ignition off, backprobe circuit 633 at DIS module with voltmeter, other lead to ground. check voltage.

4.0 volts or less, repair open/high resistance in circuit 633, retest to confirm.
greater then 4.0 volts, go to step 14
Correction, this should be if the engine OFF, Ignition ON. Thank you C5F8

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Old 10-05-2005, 12:08 AM   #16
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Default Re: P0340/P0341 Troubleshooting S-Series

Thank you sierrap615,

I followed this post and other posts by wolfman and Ssicarman to diagnose a bad camshaft sensor signal. I cleaned all corrosion off the towers and ignition module. I used dielectric grease. I even made 10 gauge ground wires with the correct size wire connectors soldered on. My new ground wires go from the nut on the bellhousing for the battery ground and connects to cleaned bolts on the ignition module. No luck.

I bought used coils and ignition module from a salvage yard. Even though I just bought plug wires from Napa, I also followed Ssicarman suggestion and bought new wires from the dealer. No more error codes.

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Old 10-18-2005, 07:39 AM   #17
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Default Re: P0340/P0341 Troubleshooting S-Series

ATTN:

I used an SPS coilpack from a 92 SL2 on my 96 SC2 on the 4/1 side and I got this misfire!
When I switched the 92 coilpack to the 2/3 side and the 96 one on the 4/1 side the misfire disappeared!
I was told that the 91-95 coilpacks have different resistance (whether this is correct or not I don't know) and can mess up the "camshaft sensor" signal on the 4/1 side on 96-02 vehicles.

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Old 10-18-2005, 09:57 PM   #18
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Default Re: P0340/P0341 Troubleshooting S-Series

yes the 91-95 coilpacks and 96-02 coilpacks, as well as aftermarket coilpacks have different spec, i don't know the numbers. but using coils other then the ones listed for 96-02 can cause a P0340 or P0341.

while we are on this topic, does anyone have a crossreference of interchangible GM coil packs and the winding raito specs?

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Old 10-18-2005, 10:47 PM   #19
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Default Re: P0340/P0341 Troubleshooting S-Series

So far as I know this is also the part number that we use on all S-series up to 2002 not that we have many problems with those years with the coils.



Ignition Coil Available as a Service Part (P/N16167763, Ignition Coil) #99-T-14 - (Nov 25, 2003)
Ignition Coil Available as a Service Part (P/N16167763, Ignition Coil)
1991-1999 Saturn vehicles

Purpose
The purpose of this bulletin is to notify retailers that the ignition coil is now available as a separate service part. Previously, the ignition coil was only available as part of the electronic ignition (EI) module assembly.

This bulletin provides ignition coil replacement guidelines and ignition coil installation and removal procedures.

Ignition Coil Diagnosis
Do not replace the ignition coil unless it can be verified that it is only cause for the condition and/or a related diagnostic trouble code (DTC).


Ignition Coil Inspection
The ignition coil can be checked using the following procedure.

1
Inspect ignition coil for corrosion.
- If excessive corrosion is present on the ignition coil terminals, replace the ignition coil only, and verify that the vehicle conditions and/or DTCs are no longer present.

- If corrosion is not present on the ignition coil terminals, refer to step 2.

2
Check resistance between ignition coil towers. If resistance between the ignition coil towers is not within the specified range of 8--15 K ohms, replace the ignition coil.

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Old 10-19-2005, 08:15 AM   #20
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Default Re: P0340/P0341 Troubleshooting S-Series

Well does anyone have a single good OEM 96+ coilpack they can send me?

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