SaturnFans.com
what's new (beta) - classifieds - forums - photos


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series Tech
Register FAQ Members List Groups Calendar Chat Room Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-27-2017, 02:23 PM   #21
Ecomike
Member
Ecomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 202

2001 SL1
Default Re: hard starting 2001 SL1

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRGW View Post
I am old school always look for the obvious. Hope it doesn't return.

1995 SL1 231,050 Well Oiled!!
1997 SL1 62,450 Just A Teenager!!
CHECK YOUR OIL!!
What is baffling is I have been fighting the P0401 and P0410 code nightmare issue for 6 years. It was at the point where it was time to pull the head and soak it to remove the carbon and pull exh manifold and clean its air ports a second time.

I did the MMO oil soak trick of the pistons top side to solve a 1 quart of oil/200 mile guzzler issue 8 weeks ago (20W50 oil), worked like a charm, them 3 days ago I had a dash clicking sound that came on long after the car was turned off, and a second door lock switch go bad a week ago while this issue started and while the lean code showed up.

Now all of a sudden no problems after the battery (and I did pull one door switch, and replaced the 2 door lock-unlock switches and fuse and relay last night, but none of that stopped the lean code, EGR codes and engine idle cyclic miss issues)

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Ecomike's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Ecomike reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Ecomike is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 09-27-2017, 02:26 PM   #22
Ecomike
Member
Ecomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 202

2001 SL1
Default Re: hard starting 2001 SL1

LOL, vehicle and other cloaked gremlins are rarely obvious in my world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRGW View Post
I am old school always look for the obvious. Hope it doesn't return.

1995 SL1 231,050 Well Oiled!!
1997 SL1 62,450 Just A Teenager!!
CHECK YOUR OIL!!

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Ecomike's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Ecomike reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Ecomike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2017, 02:39 PM   #23
Ecomike
Member
Ecomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 202

2001 SL1
Default Re: hard starting 2001 SL1

The P0171 lean code showed up right away first short trip today (rapid acceleration/decel triggered it, cleared the code, and minutes later P0401 code came up, cleared it, then no codes since then on the last 40 miles of the single trip.

Starting the think the FPR is bleeding down after the 2 second initial prestart prime, more on that later....

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Ecomike's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Ecomike reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Ecomike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2017, 01:05 PM   #24
Ecomike
Member
Ecomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 202

2001 SL1
Default Re: hard starting 2001 SL1

Too little time....but so far I am suspecting the FPR is not holding pressure, and leaks down quickly after priming. Still need to test it with an FP gauge. LTFT is just a little bit too positive, enough to start throwing a lean code per this. My LTFT is running as high as +12 IIRC, +10 to 11 for sure, and If I crank the rig at exactly 2-2.5 seconds after reaching the run, from the off location on the ignition switch, It usually starts right up and fast (right after the 2 second fuel primer timer sequence). I do not think the FPR has ever been changed, not since before 2008 for sure.

PCV valve and hose (both ancient), EGR valve sticking open (It does have an never ending EGR code fetish,LOL, even with the new EGR), and a few others I found:

Causes of Fuel Trim Trouble Codes P0171 P0174

A P0171 or P0174 trouble code tells you the fuel mixture is running lean (not enough fuel and/or too much air). This type of problem can be confirmed by looking at the Short Term Fuel Trim (STFT) and Long Term Fuel Trim (LTFT) values with a scan tool. Normally, STFT and LTFT should be plus or minus 5 to 10 from zero. If STFT and/or LTFT are more than about +12, it indicates the engine is running lean. Negative numbers (-12 or more) indicates the engine is running rich.

A lean fuel condition can be caused by:

* Low fuel pressure due to a weak pump or leaky fuel pressure regulator. Use a fuel pressure gauge to check fuel pressure at idle. If fuel pressure is less than specifications, your fuel filter may be plugged, your fuel pump may be failing or have a bad wiring connection, or the fuel pressure regulator may be leaking.

* Dirty fuel injectors. Cleaning the injectors with a fuel system additive, or having the injectors professionally cleaned may solve your problem.

* Vacuum leaks at the intake manifold, vacuum hose connections or throttle body.

* Leaky EGR valve. Check the operation of EGR valve and system, and for a buildup of carbon under the valve.

* Leaky PCV Valve or hose. (Check valve and hose connections)

* Dirty or defective Mass Airflow Sensor (MAF). Try cleaning the MAF sensor wires or filament with aerosol electronics cleaner. Do NOT use anything else to clean the sensor, and do not touch the sensor wires.

From: http://www.aa1car.com/library/common_trouble_codes.htm

I did RE-discover, that just clearing the MIL codes, does not change as much as disconnecting the battery. Killing power at the battery clears all the old sensor junk data stored in KAM, like the LTFT and results in very much different behavior in the first 30 minutes or more of run time!!! And it changes the relearn drive time in a huge way!!!

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Ecomike's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Ecomike reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Ecomike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2017, 01:06 PM   #25
Ecomike
Member
Ecomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 202

2001 SL1
Default Re: hard starting 2001 SL1

Where is the fuel filter on the 2001 SL-1?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Ecomike's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Ecomike reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Ecomike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2017, 01:36 PM   #26
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,011
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: hard starting 2001 SL1

Look under the rear driver's side or passenger side chassis between the fuel tank and ahead of the rear wheel wells. It should be obvious.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2017, 01:43 PM   #27
SRGW
Member
SRGW is a glorious beacon of lightSRGW is a glorious beacon of lightSRGW is a glorious beacon of lightSRGW is a glorious beacon of lightSRGW is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Northern New Jersey
Posts: 447

1995 SL1
1997 SL1
Post Re: hard starting 2001 SL1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVeyA6B2afU

1995 SL1 231,050 Well Oiled!!
1997 SL1 62,450 Just A Teenager!!
CHECK YOUR OIL!!

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to SRGW's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help SRGW reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
SRGW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2017, 03:27 PM   #28
alordofchaos
Super Member
alordofchaos is a splendid one to beholdalordofchaos is a splendid one to beholdalordofchaos is a splendid one to beholdalordofchaos is a splendid one to beholdalordofchaos is a splendid one to beholdalordofchaos is a splendid one to beholdalordofchaos is a splendid one to behold
 
alordofchaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central MI
Posts: 11,032
 

1998 SL2
1997 SL2
Default Re: hard starting 2001 SL1

Fuel filter on an '01 should last 150k or more (owner's manual calls for changes at 100k miles).

Any idea of the brand that was installed?
Multiple people have had issues with pressure with certain brands - the recommended one is Wix 337331; though a few have tested GK Industries Part number: GF1846 and found it works (IIRC, it was 1 psi over the range)

Fram (G9370) and Purolator (F65501) were listed specifically to be avoided. Fits, but provide incorrect fuel pressure

...
I'm not worthy to grovel in the shadow of Signmaster's wisdom

11/2016 red 2002 5 spd SC2 124k DD
7/2010 Craigslist white 1997 SC2 project
12/2008 eBay silver 1998 SL2 5 spd 102k, now 201k+ miles

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to alordofchaos's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help alordofchaos reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
alordofchaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2017, 11:49 AM   #29
Ecomike
Member
Ecomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 202

2001 SL1
Default Re: hard starting 2001 SL1

Quote:
Originally Posted by alordofchaos View Post
and fuel filter brand, if replaced. Only a couple brands are known to provide the right pressure with the integrated regulator
Tell me more please!!! What brands? Sound like you are saying the FPR is also an inline filter? I priced on at AZ yesterday, they must be gold plated.

What is (are ?) the proper fuel pressure(s)?

Thanks

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Ecomike's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Ecomike reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Ecomike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2017, 11:52 AM   #30
Ecomike
Member
Ecomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 202

2001 SL1
Default Re: hard starting 2001 SL1

Thanks, Richpin to the rescue again, gotta love that guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRGW View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVeyA6B2afU

1995 SL1 231,050 Well Oiled!!
1997 SL1 62,450 Just A Teenager!!
CHECK YOUR OIL!!

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Ecomike's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Ecomike reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Ecomike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2017, 12:01 PM   #31
Ecomike
Member
Ecomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 202

2001 SL1
Default Re: hard starting 2001 SL1

AZ wanted over $80, Amazon Prime has the GK GF1846 brand for just under $20 (edit I just ordered one, will here Monday). AZ is toast. The Wix is about $49 at Amazon. 1 psi difference is not significant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alordofchaos View Post
Fuel filter on an '01 should last 150k or more (owner's manual calls for changes at 100k miles).

Any idea of the brand that was installed?
Multiple people have had issues with pressure with certain brands - the recommended one is Wix 337331; though a few have tested GK Industries Part number: GF1846 and found it works (IIRC, it was 1 psi over the range)

Fram (G9370) and Purolator (F65501) were listed specifically to be avoided. Fits, but provide incorrect fuel pressure

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Ecomike's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Ecomike reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Ecomike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2017, 12:21 PM   #32
Ecomike
Member
Ecomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 202

2001 SL1
Default Re: hard starting 2001 SL1

Thanks for your feed back (and others here). Been dealing with a flooded shop and house from harvey, and long commutes, etc, so just finally got around to testing the fuel pressure, since I had other signs suggesting it was an issue...

Not sure yet what the OEM fuel pressure is? But I know now the Filter-FPR (it is also a Fuel Pressure Regulator, right???), is bad as the 2 second prime in the start up sequence works, but 2 seconds later the fuel pressure is already ZERO LOL

At idle on a cold start I was getting 30 psi at the injector fuel rail test port.

I suspect the pressure should be closer to 49????? But I am not sure what the Saturn OEM spec is???

Also I need to replace the schrader valve at the test port. It is leaking with the cap off. Any one know the part number or crossover for it???

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
No dual circuit for fuel pump. It's one line, one circuit, period. One signal to run the for pump whether it's for two seconds or as long as the engine turns. The PCM detects whether the crank sensor signal is being sent to the pcm or not and determines either to run the pump for two seconds or have crank sensor signals allow it to run the pump for as long as crank sensor signals are being sent to the pcm. This isn't a pump or pump signal problem.

With mileage approaching 300k and replacing pump and filter, did you check fuel pressure? Don't assume, verify it. Guessing can be an expensive way to replace parts without determine what failed. With an intermittent starting problem, fuel and spark are the two main issues that must be verified at least once when problems don't go away. Yes, fuel and spark are there because the engine runs but no one can tell you why one or both aren't giving near instant starts which we're expecting. Starting requires instant full operating pressure from the fuel pump - that's where a fuel pressure gauge is needed to see actual pressure at ignition on time just before starting. Spark needs to be verified by a starting test in the driveway to verify spark at low starting rpm. When you verify both are consistent without problems, the next step would be a compression test. Lower than normal compression is only one reason for poor startups.

Chasing the egr and secondary air pump problems may be contributing to this issue. Addressing each problem requires eliminating one problem at a time as one or several problems can contribute to startup problems.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Ecomike's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Ecomike reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Ecomike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2017, 10:12 PM   #33
Ecomike
Member
Ecomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 202

2001 SL1
Default Re: hard starting 2001 SL1

Still need a part number for the schrader valve in the fuel rail test port, so I can find one. The typical stores do not even list it.

No more lean codes in over a week. I replaced the FPR-filter today. ran it for 30 minutes, made a few trips, cycled the engine on/off a few times first. Then turn it off at a store (I was buying an impact wrench for my jeep....).

Saturn tried to start. It would catch-fire up and die in one second. 40 times I tried to get it to run. No joy. I disconnected the battery, grounded the harness, then reconnected it.

Started right up drove it home, cycled it 2 times, made another 30 mile trip and so far so good. So far no lean codes.

Oh, and once again, after disconnecting the battery, it went almost immediately to a no CEL code green status for about an hour. But clearing codes, never gets to the green status and takes forever to lock in the emissions monitors and throws a code 401 first.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Ecomike's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Ecomike reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Ecomike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2017, 03:40 AM   #34
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,011
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: hard starting 2001 SL1

1-Fuel pressure between 40-55 psi.

2-Fuel valve stem replacement; DieselOrings.com

The site sells a fitting and valve core together. I couldn't find any place selling the fuel valve core separately. In the meantime while waiting for the correct fuel valve stem, I temporarily used a new ac schrader valve core; http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...em+replacement

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2017, 07:01 AM   #35
SRGW
Member
SRGW is a glorious beacon of lightSRGW is a glorious beacon of lightSRGW is a glorious beacon of lightSRGW is a glorious beacon of lightSRGW is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Northern New Jersey
Posts: 447

1995 SL1
1997 SL1
Post Re: hard starting 2001 SL1

ACDelco 12574525 . Check eBay $15.00

1995 SL1 231,591 Well Oiled!!
1997 SL1 62,650 Just A Teenager!!
CHECK YOUR OIL!!

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to SRGW's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help SRGW reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
SRGW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2017, 11:12 AM   #36
Ecomike
Member
Ecomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura aboutEcomike has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 202

2001 SL1
Default Re: hard starting 2001 SL1

No more problems with hard starting for several days. Now always starting in under 1 second, under all conditions. This may have solved the schrader valve leak as well, since the FPR is no doubt holding pressure. The zero line pressure when off may be why I saw fuel under the fuel test tap. I will check it when I get a chance.

Thanks for help folks!!! 2001 SL1, 276,000 miles rides again

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Ecomike's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Ecomike reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Ecomike is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2001 Hard Starting in Cold Weather dlacacres S-Series Tech 9 04-07-2014 04:51 PM
Hard starting midwest S-Series General 2 06-27-2009 11:54 AM
Hard Starting SL jdsdls S-Series Tech 0 06-24-2009 10:53 AM
Hard starting 97' SL2 rudy S-Series Tech 7 03-13-2005 07:44 PM
Hard Starting Vue Dar Vue General 15 02-26-2004 09:58 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:13 PM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.