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Old 10-03-2017, 09:40 AM   #1
WrightMan
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2004 ION-3 Sedan
Dizzy Slight Shake with New Brakes

I was having a bit of a shake with my car when I hit the brakes so I replaced the pads and rotors with a nice set of ceramic pads and ceramic rotors. Now there is still a light shake under light braking. Is there anything else that would cause this? The tie rods, ball joints, and bearings seemed fine. I also had the tires re-balanced a month ago.
Any tips would be appreciated.
Thanks!

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Old 10-03-2017, 11:34 AM   #2
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Default Re: Slight Shake with New Brakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by WrightMan View Post
I was having a bit of a shake with my car when I hit the brakes so I replaced the pads and rotors with a nice set of ceramic pads and ceramic rotors. Now there is still a light shake under light braking. Is there anything else that would cause this? The tie rods, ball joints, and bearings seemed fine. I also had the tires re-balanced a month ago.
Any tips would be appreciated.
Thanks!
When this shaking occurs do you get any feedback through the brake pedal? Have you tested the CV axle joints by doing tight turns, left and right, under light acceleration and listened for any clunking noises?

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Old 10-03-2017, 12:07 PM   #3
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Default Re: Slight Shake with New Brakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by pierrot View Post
When this shaking occurs do you get any feedback through the brake pedal? Have you tested the CV axle joints by doing tight turns, left and right, under light acceleration and listened for any clunking noises?
I do feel a little pulse or shake in the brake peddle as well as the steering wheel. It was a lot worse and the rotors were warped and pitted but I have not checked the CV's yet but will tonight.
Thanks!

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Old 10-03-2017, 01:36 PM   #4
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Default Re: Slight Shake with New Brakes

So there is still some feedback in the pedal and steering wheel. In general, when a rotor is out of round the feedback is felt through the pedal and not the steering wheel. However, I suppose that if a rotor is warped severely enough then pulsation could get to the steering wheel also. At any rate, this leads me to think that your problem is outside of the brake system (although "the jury is still out" on that). As a point of information, it is possible for brand new rotors to be slightly out of round and therefore need to be resurfaced prior to installation.

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Old 10-03-2017, 04:33 PM   #5
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Default Re: Slight Shake with New Brakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by pierrot;2256032 As a point of information, it is possible for brand new rotors to be slightly out of round and therefore need to be resurfaced prior to installation.[/SIZE
[/FONT]
^^^ Agreed Pierrot. I used to (Good Ole Days) have brand new rotors turned straight out of the box before they were installed. Now, new rotors barely have enough "Meat" on them to turn just one time before they are toast.

The bean counters and fuel savings are to blame here.

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Old 10-03-2017, 08:39 PM   #6
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Default Re: Slight Shake with New Brakes

Have your rotors re surfaced even if they were recently purchased. Then try driving it. If shakes still there check the outer tie rod ends.

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Old 10-03-2017, 08:56 PM   #7
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Default Re: Slight Shake with New Brakes

Check the hubs for rust, even a little can cause problems. Was it difficult to compress the piston? It is possible you have a caliper locking up. Have a partner CAREFULLY AND SLOWLY push the brake pedal a little at a time until the piston extends out until the boot is almost completely unfolded. You don't want to push the piston all the way out make sure the pistons are approximately the same distance out. If they aren't even close to matching swap both calipers out. Compress the piston with a C clamp or hand operated caliper compressor If the pistons compress smoothly swap out the pins and slides and lube them with synthetic brake lube. Have it scanned for codes look for ABS and traction control.

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Last edited by BobWolf; 10-03-2017 at 09:01 PM..

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Old 10-04-2017, 08:30 AM   #8
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Default Re: Slight Shake with New Brakes

Well the steering wheel actually had a slight shake when coasting also but that shake is very mild and barely noticeable but the brake pedal is fairly evident. The pistons moved very smoothly when I was doing the brakes and will take another look at that. The pedal shake happened right away so they must have been warped right out of the box. Lately when I park on an incline I have noticed the parking brake causes the passenger side to dip a little more than the drivers side. Could the rear brakes cause a shake in the pedal or maybe if the brakes were not bled? I forgot to mention there is a chance my front right strut is bad cause I get a thump when I hit a bump or crack in the road on that side but wasn't sure if that could be the cause or not.
Thanks again!

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Last edited by WrightMan; 10-04-2017 at 08:36 AM..

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Old 10-04-2017, 12:32 PM   #9
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Default Re: Slight Shake with New Brakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by WrightMan View Post
Well the steering wheel actually had a slight shake when coasting also but that shake is very mild and barely noticeable but the brake pedal is fairly evident.
The steering wheel shake would seem to be influenced by something in the steering and suspension system as described here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WrightMan View Post
The pistons moved very smoothly when I was doing the brakes and will take another look at that. The pedal shake happened right away so they must have been warped right out of the box.
It would appear then that the rotors need to be removed and resurfaced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WrightMan View Post
Lately when I park on an incline I have noticed the parking brake causes the passenger side to dip a little more than the drivers side.
I should've asked this previously, but it didn't come to mind: did you do a brake job all the way around or at the front only? With regard to the parking brake, is the system a four wheel disc, or disc and drum set up?

If the parking brake is not adjusted correctly then one of two things are likely to occur:
1) adjustment is too tight - the parking brakes are in contact with the rotor or drum surface 100% of the time resulting in a drag during acceleration, making it very labored and reducing fuel economy;
2) adjustment is too loose - (a safety hazard) the parking brake will not adequately hold the rear brakes in place and will cause more, or all, of the vehicle's weight to be born against the parking pawl. That part is not meant to bear so much weight against it which is why use of the parking brake is required. (I accept that you know this so the following comment isn't directed towards you, but is general: it is expected by vehicle manufacturers that the parking brake will be used whenever the vehicle is parked [unattended].)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WrightMan View Post
Could the rear brakes cause a shake in the pedal...(?)
This goes back to my question above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WrightMan View Post
...or maybe if the brakes were not bled?
No. If the system needed to be bled and was not, then there would be excessive pedal travel and your brake pedal would have no firmness. The pedal would have a spongy, soft feel to it and will lack the resistance commonly felt when applying the brakes. (I would describe this as the pedal having no "bite.")
Quote:
Originally Posted by WrightMan View Post
I forgot to mention there is a chance my front right strut is bad cause I get a thump when I hit a bump or crack in the road on that side but wasn't sure if that could be the cause or not.
A weak front strut should have no impact upon pedal or steering wheel feedback unless it has become so bad that the wheel is bouncing while the car is driven. If this has occurred the evidence of it is on the tire tread. The tread becomes indented all the way around as the tire is no longer in firm contact with the road surface. This "cupping" of the tread is the result of a severely weak strut or shock absorber. If there was to be any feedback in this case I would expect it to be felt primarily through the steering wheel. (I cannot fully discount the possibility of feedback being felt through the brake pedal, I merely think it less likely.)

(BTW, if you ever see a vehicle near you while driving and you see that a wheel is bouncing, then you know that there's a bad strut or shock at that wheel.)

...
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The blessings of liberty erode in my country.
Gov't's grown bigger, but a chance exists that it will be reduced. I'm cautiously hopeful.

Last edited by pierrot; 10-04-2017 at 12:41 PM..

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Old 10-04-2017, 01:28 PM   #10
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Default Re: Slight Shake with New Brakes

WrightMan, when rotors and pads were replaced, were the wheel hubs cleaned of all rust and corrosion? Not ensuring the surfaces between new rotors and old wheel hub are clean and free of rust may inadvertently create rotor runout, more commonly described as warping brakes. Warped brakes are difficult to prove unless familiar with total runout of 0.002". Do you know what two thousandths of an inch looks like with or without a feeler gauge, dial caliper, micrometer? Can you see runout by eye? Anyone can blame rotors and drums for warping but many cannot prove it due to lack of measuring for it. DIY brake service requires more than casual knowledge of brake systems, including flushing and bleeding procedures, as complete a brake service as expected from repair shops. Skipping and/or ignoring small details of a complete brake repair puts any problems on the diyers shoulders unfamiliar with all brake procedures, problems before and after servicing them.

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Old 10-04-2017, 03:03 PM   #11
WrightMan
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Default Re: Slight Shake with New Brakes

The car has front disc rear drum but I have not opened the drums to see what the condition of the shoes are. When I replaced the front rotors a wire wheel and or brush is taken to any surface that is accessible to clean up the rust. Then I spray it with cleaner and add some grease to almost everything. Corrosion and rust up here is a pain so I try to protect against it as best I can. Replacing the calipers was something I was debating on just to be sure and have a nicer set on the car. I had to clean up the calipers a bit before the new pads would even fit because of corrosion where the hardware goes. If the rear brakes would not cause shaking in the pedal I will leave those till this weekend and just take another run at these rotors. Is it common for them to be slightly warped straight out of the box? I bought the Duralast Gold which looking at reviews it seems other people had the same issue. Supposedly they were the best they sold but not good enough I guess. The parking brake can hold the car still.

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Last edited by WrightMan; 10-04-2017 at 03:17 PM..

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Old 10-04-2017, 03:25 PM   #12
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Default Re: Slight Shake with New Brakes

Anyone can be an armchair quarterback and declare brakes are warped but who can prove it? Talk is cheap. Measuring rotor or drum run-out requires understanding what run-out means, knowledge of measurements, ability to use measuring tools like dial calipers and more than casual knowledge of "I just replaced my rotors and pads today and now I have problems...." I'm no expert on brake systems but learn as much as possible before assuming I know something about brakes. Avoiding mistakes or not understanding something is not the time to learn why things go wrong. Some say we learn by mistake but with brakes it can be a deadly price to learn. I'm aware of some parts of the US with severe rust and corrosion from winter salting of roads and highways. I collect my share of rusty stuff in NYC.

To answer your question about so called warping of new parts, the only way to determine this is by measurement. If you can presume a wheel hub isn't severely corroded and wheel bearing is fine, mounting a new rotor and measuring it for run-out with a dial caliper or a crude form of it can be done. The trick is knowing what you're trying to measure. Google for procedures, drawings and videos of measuring run-out for rotors and drums. If you're serious about learning you won't fall asleep. There's a simpler way to see run-out but it still requires knowing how to setup and measure it, by eye. Eyeballing two thousandths of an inch isn't difficult if you're familiar with feeler gauges and know how to judge what warp means in actual rotor/drum deformation.

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Old 10-04-2017, 03:49 PM   #13
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Default Re: Slight Shake with New Brakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by WrightMan View Post
The car has front disc rear drum but I have not opened the drums to see what the condition of the shoes are...

...If the rear brakes would not cause shaking in the pedal I will leave those till this weekend and just take another run at these rotors.
This seems sensible to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WrightMan View Post
Is it common for them to be slightly warped straight out of the box?
It's simply that this is not uncommon. The brake rotor manufacturers do their best to eliminate this, but, as fdryer correctly pointed, out a .002 (2/1000) runout (deviation from true roundness) is more than enough to generate a pulsation through to the brake pedal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WrightMan View Post
I bought the Duralast Gold which looking at reviews it seems other people had the same issue. Supposedly they were the best they sold but not good enough I guess.
This could occur with any brand, not just Duralast Gold. As stated above, resurfacing a new rotor is not uncommon. Some people may be too presumptuous of a manufacturer's ability to create a rotor which is perfectly round every time. While the majority of the time this can be true, nothing we humans create is foolproof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WrightMan View Post
The parking brake can hold the car still.
Good. It matters!

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Old 10-05-2017, 04:09 PM   #14
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Default Re: Slight Shake with New Brakes

All else being equal it sounds like resin transfer onto the rotors. With new pads and, possibly oil on the new rotors, you can get glazing if you make a hard or long stop and then sit at a light with the wheel not moving. If you can see a ghost pattern of the pad anywhere on the rotors or a different coloration on the rotor surface you will have to de-glaze the surfaces and redo the pad break in.
Pre-baked pads are supposed to help. I still do a burn-in run on them anyway.
If you do have new pads and get stuck at a light give yourself enough room to creep forwards until the brakes can cool a little.
Shakes while coasting can be a few things. Folks often overlook the tires.
Dura-last, meh. Haven't used them on a Saturn. Didn't care for them on trucks.

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