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Old 01-10-2016, 06:05 PM   #1
kirkathon25
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Default 2005 Saturn Vue 2.2L Won't Start, Fuel Pump ok,

Hello, i am really at my wits end with this Vue. I installed a new radiator and upper radiator mounts when i got into a minor fender bender in Sept. I replaced the radiator and filled the coolant and then burped all the air out so the vue was running nicely. It then died because i had it on ramps and it may have run out of gas.
Since that happened i put 5 gallons in and tried to crank it over. The starter engages and turns the engine over but it will not fire.
Here is what I've tested and eliminated:
- Battery is fine
- Fuel pressure is fine
- Air box is removed and butterfly opens fine
- Compression is fine (just had timing chain and some valves done, oops, with an intake manifold gasket)
- Spark is fine
- Passcode reset is fine
- Bench tested the relays all fine and have continuity with 12v applied
- Checked every single fuse, all fine and all have continuity
- Checked and cleaned every single ground, checked for 12V
- OBDII sensor does function, it turns on the code readers, but will not report back from the ECM/PCM with any code reader (still waiting on the Tech II)
- Fuel pump does not come on when the key is turned to ON but will come on when the relay pins are jumped (87 to 30 yeah yeah lol)
- Vue will still not fire when fuel pump is charged
- Main engine relay does not have a good ground with pin 86 (I don't know if that means anything)
- Fuel gauge does not work at all
- BCM looks to be in good condition
- Daytime running light resistors were damaged in the accident and broke off. I would replace them but they cost $85 each from Advance

Seriously, any help you guys could give me would be much appreciated. I hate that this car was running fine but would just quit like that. I'm sure it is an electrical problem but it is complete bs any little ground would make the car not run. Thank you in advance.

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Old 01-10-2016, 06:12 PM   #2
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2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 2005 Saturn Vue 2.2L Won't Start, Fuel Pump ok,

Blown injector fuse?

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Old 01-10-2016, 09:23 PM   #3
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2004 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: 2005 Saturn Vue 2.2L Won't Start, Fuel Pump ok,

The fact that you cant communicate with the car via the data port makes me think one or more of your cars sensors is bad ane is bringing down the rest of the circuit. Try to get to a component that is supposed to have reference voltage. See if it has it. If it doesnt then one of th many components connected to that vircuit is shorted out.

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Old 01-11-2016, 09:44 AM   #4
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Default Re: 2005 Saturn Vue 2.2L Won't Start, Fuel Pump ok,

What would be an example of a component to check? As near as i can tell the circuit where the problem lies is whichever one that the Main Engine Relay is on. Also, there is low voltage on the IGN 1 (2.5V) and Fuel Level Gauge (.2V) circuit at the fuel pump connector near the gas tank. BTW i checked the injector fuse again and it is good.

Last edited by kirkathon25; 01-11-2016 at 09:55 AM..

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Old 01-11-2016, 10:52 AM   #5
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2006 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: 2005 Saturn Vue 2.2L Won't Start, Fuel Pump ok,

If you have access to a service manual with wiring diagrams, try to find the crankshaft position sensor. There should be a reference voltage on a connector that goes to that sensor (ignition key in run position).

...
John.... 2006 Saturn Vue, 2.2, 186,000 miles Recently junked out - (threw a rod)

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Old 01-11-2016, 11:06 AM   #6
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Default Re: 2005 Saturn Vue 2.2L Won't Start, Fuel Pump ok,

With familiarity using a dvm and wiring, I would recommend alldata or Mitchell online for access to service manuals. This can make troubleshooting EFI system problems less stressful. I addition to the EFI system, GM's Passlock theft deterrent system can make troubleshooting difficult if not familiar with how it disables injector operation when security is triggered during tamper or theft mode. The fuel pump should be timed to run for 2 seconds every time ignition is turned ON (engine off). There may be more than one problem here.

To separate Passlock security interfering with starting/running, the simplest way to know if Passlock disabled injector operation; when ignition is turned ON, all electronics are powered up and perform their own power up self tests with all instrument lights turned on (lamp test phase), with most indicators turning off after a few seconds. The fuel pump runs, pressurizes the fuel lines, and shuts off if the engine isn't started. A fuel pressure gauge can verify pump operation. The 12v fuel pump command signal is either on pin 85 or 86 of the fuel pump relay terminals. All 87A relays operate with a command signal to power the relay on pins 85 and 86. Relay contacts 30 and 87 close to send 12 volts to power the fuel pump, a/c coil, blower motor, cooling fan, etc..

Passlock security turns on as part of power up self tests and turn off during starting. Three modes indicate Passlock security; Blinking slowly - Passlock enabled. flashing quickly - Passlock actively disabling injector operation, ON all the time - Passlock failed its self tests and disables itself from interfering with engine running.

A simple way to test for injector or lack of fuel; spray starting fluid into the throttle and see if the engine starts and runs. Another way would be removing plugs after several failed starting attempts (when the engine is most likely flooded) and examining them for wetness or holding throttle wide open during starting - this tells the ecm/pcm to shut off injectors if the engine is flooded and allow more air in to dry out the cylinders for a sputtering start.

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Old 01-11-2016, 12:16 PM   #7
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Default Re: 2005 Saturn Vue 2.2L Won't Start, Fuel Pump ok,

I have access to every wiring diagram through a paid website. The fuel pump runs fine with good fuel pressure when the pins on the relay are jumped. The pin on the fuel pump relay that is for ground (86) has good continuity with SP101 however the pin that is for power to open the relay (85) is only supplying .3V. The problem seems to lie with the ECM not sending 12V to the relay when it is supposed to.
Also, the main engine relay ground has an iffy connection along with it also not receiving 12V from the ECM. (G107 is on the ECM)
Even when the main engine relay and the fuel pump relay are jumped, the car will not fire.

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Old 01-11-2016, 12:38 PM   #8
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Default Re: 2005 Saturn Vue 2.2L Won't Start, Fuel Pump ok,

Keep in mind that the ECU will not provide continuous power to the fuel pump relay unless the ECU detects engine rotation via the crankshaft position sensor. And generally there would be no spark if the ECU does not receive a signal from the crankshaft position sensor.

In your first post, you said the spark was fine. How did you test for that? Isn't this a coil over plug setup?

...
John.... 2006 Saturn Vue, 2.2, 186,000 miles Recently junked out - (threw a rod)

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Old 01-11-2016, 02:59 PM   #9
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Default Re: 2005 Saturn Vue 2.2L Won't Start, Fuel Pump ok,

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkathon25 View Post
I have access to every wiring diagram through a paid website. The fuel pump runs fine with good fuel pressure when the pins on the relay are jumped. The pin on the fuel pump relay that is for ground (86) has good continuity with SP101 however the pin that is for power to open the relay (85) is only supplying .3V. The problem seems to lie with the ECM not sending 12V to the relay when it is supposed to.
Also, the main engine relay ground has an iffy connection along with it also not receiving 12V from the ECM. (G107 is on the ECM)
Even when the main engine relay and the fuel pump relay are jumped, the car will not fire.
As mentioned previously, there may be more than one issue and your troubleshooting seems to point to two areas. The fuel pump command signal is the same signal whether turning ignition ON or when starting/running. The 12v command to power the pump relay must deliver 12 volts to power the relay. To measure for 12 volts, someone must turn the ignition switch to ON while you monitor for 12v on pin 85. 12 volts will only be on this pin for 2 seconds, then disappears. You can only cycle ignition a few times before a time out prevents powering the fuel pump relay. The alternative is to measure for 12 volts on the relay terminal while starting; the crank sensor generates timing signals the ecm needs to; turn on fuel pump, initialize the ignition system for spark and pulse injectors. During starting and running, the crank sensor allows the EFI system to operate. If you do not see 12 volts on pin 85, there may be a wiring break or terminal damage.

According to wiring diagrams, the dark green/white wire is the command signal from the ecm to power the fuel pump relay. Did you try a continuity test between the relay pinout 85 and the ecm?

The second problem with main engine relay may be troubling. At this point in troubleshooting, you may have to disconnect battery power and examine the ecm connections, disconnecting and inspecting the multiple pins for anything unusual. With battery power removed, this is an opportune time to check wiring continuity for the brown(?) wire to the main relay. This is a switched ground signal to the main relay. The main relay is always supplied with 12v, waiting for a switched ground signal from the ecm. The ecm will only power up when the ignition switch is turned ON.

Last edited by fdryer; 01-11-2016 at 03:11 PM..

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Old 01-11-2016, 04:27 PM   #10
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Default Re: 2005 Saturn Vue 2.2L Won't Start, Fuel Pump ok,

Thanks for all your input, i figured it out and got it running. After much frustration and redoing every ground, checking every fuse, checking continuity on every essential circuit, it turns out i'm an idiot.

The problem was that i took the cover of the under hood fuse panel off by taking those three 7mm bolts out on the top. Those bolts don't hold the cover on... they hold 3 gigantic plugs against the fuses and relays. When i loosened them (with a drill of course smh) it disconnected one of the gigantic plugs. Reset all those plugs and tightened them down and it started right up.

I don't know if i am the first person to think those bolts need to be loosened to get the cover off the under hood fuse panel but there should be a warning on that thing lol something like "Don't loosen these bolts unless you want to chase phantom electrical problems for two weeks."

On the plus side, i am now an automotive electrical guru with all of the testing equipment and bs testing.

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Old 01-11-2016, 05:32 PM   #11
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2006 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: 2005 Saturn Vue 2.2L Won't Start, Fuel Pump ok,

Glad you got it figured out and thanks for the report. I remember seeing those 3 bolts thru the cover and wondering what they were for. Now I know.

...
John.... 2006 Saturn Vue, 2.2, 186,000 miles Recently junked out - (threw a rod)

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