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Old 06-16-2010, 03:07 PM   #1
ShawnV
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Default How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

Here is a how-to video for replacing the subframe on a saturn S-series 95-02. This is expanding on wolfman's posting from a long time ago on this repair.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfman View Post
Cradle removal: (abbreviated but easy enough to follow)

Jack up the car and support it with jackstands. You MUST get the car (measured at the frame) AT LEAST 16 inches off the ground.

Remove both front wheels and inner splash shields.

Remove the front (engine) splash shield from under the radiator

Seperate the tierod ends from the knuckle (both sides)
NOTE: This is NOT 100% necessary, BUT it can help to make removing the steering rack to cradle bolts easier, so I recommend you do so.

Seperate the ball joints from the knuckle. LEAVE the knuckles with brake componants, drive axles and struts still attached "hanging"

Support the engine and transaxle from ABOVE using a couple of appropriate length 2X4's layed accross the upper radiator support to the firewall upper portion and some STRONG rope/chain/cable through the lifting eyes. MAKE SURE that the engine/transaxle WILL NOT drop down when the cradle is removed from beneath them. ("Hanger" MUST be TIGHT before proceeding)

Remove the three nuts holding the exhaust down pipe to the manifold and the bracket and/or rubber hangers just forward of the catalytic convertor. Allow the down pipe to sag down (no need to remove it)

Remove the two bolts securing the steering rack to the cradle

Remove the LOWER engine dogbone mount and LOWER transaxle to cradle mount.

Tie the radiator SECURELY to the upper radiator support with some STRONG twine.

Break loose, but DO NOT REMOVE the 4 cradle to space frame bolts. ENSURE THAT NOTHING IS NOW ATTATCHED TO THE CRADLE! (except the lower control arms and sway bar) THEN remove the REAR cradle bolts FIRST. Support the FRONT of the cradle with a floor jack and THEN remove the front cradle attaching bolts.

SLOWLY lower the cradle making SURE that the RADIATOR does NOT come down with it and that NOTHING else is still attached or interfering with it lowering.

Drag the cradle with the sway bar and lower control arms still attached out the FRONT of the car, OVER the still attached exhaust pipe.

Install is reverse (LOL) DO NOT FORGET to use the front cradle alignment holes (mentioned in a post above) to align the cradle BEFORE tightening the bolts.

Hope that helps (and that I did not forget anything)



Obviously, I took a richpin approach to this how-to, and I would like to thank him for all he does for his many fans. I would not be the saturn enthusiast I am today without you, Richpin!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSSAbIKMVCU



Feedback?

Last edited by ShawnV; 06-16-2010 at 03:14 PM..

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Old 06-17-2010, 07:09 AM   #2
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Default Re: How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

There is also a brake line attached to the rear of the cradle that is held on by a push pin that needs to be removed. IIRC the harness for the rear O2 sensor might be attached to the cradle as well.

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Old 06-17-2010, 10:56 AM   #3
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Default Re: How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

That is correct. It's important not to kink the brake line! Also, that connector is a bear to get to but is just held with one quick-release plastic retainer on each side. The real difficulty is if you need to unplug the connector - now that's hard!

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Old 06-17-2010, 11:51 AM   #4
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Default Re: How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

I did mention this connector in the video, but I didn't call it a brake connector. What I did was lower the subframe slightly to get better access to it. Also, I had a terrible time with the power steering lines as they wanted to round off. I bought a cheap brake line wrench at AZ, which didn't help. I finally vicegriped them off (using real vice grips, not locking pliers).

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Old 06-18-2010, 02:44 AM   #5
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Default Re: How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnV View Post
I did mention this connector in the video, but I didn't call it a brake connector. What I did was lower the subframe slightly to get better access to it. Also, I had a terrible time with the power steering lines as they wanted to round off. I bought a cheap brake line wrench at AZ, which didn't help. I finally vicegriped them off (using real vice grips, not locking pliers).
i'd just like to comment on the power steering, you said you had issues with it? i left mine in the car intact, i just did and engine and sub frame on a 2001 SC2, i just disconected the outter tie rods, the 2 bolts on the rack to the frame and the pump bolts, that way you don't have to bleed it after or make a mess,

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Old 06-18-2010, 07:39 AM   #6
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Default Re: How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

I agree with you, Gprime. Removing the steering was a pain. Although I did get a new set of craftsman flare wrenches out of it.

The ONLY reason I removed the steering was because I suspected the old steering rack was shot due to the PO driving forever with the front end messed up. The car was finally undriveabe because the steering was so shot.

If possible I would agree that leaving the steering in is much simpler and you won't disturb the power steering fluid.

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Old 10-08-2011, 09:33 AM   #7
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Default Re: How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

Does anyone have the torque specs for the cradle bolts, or part numbers for new ones? Any tips on where to find replacement powertrain mounts (I'm looking at 15-year old rubber) also appreciated...

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Old 01-28-2012, 10:41 AM   #8
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Default Re: How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

Yea, tighten the hell out of them. I usually tighten with my impact and then give another turn with my breaker bar. If you need new ones you can get them easily at a junk yard. I've got piles of those bolts if all else fails; send me a pm.

shawn

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Old 05-10-2012, 11:29 AM   #9
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Default Re: How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

Does anyone know where the best place to pick up the engine is on a 95 sl1?

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Old 05-16-2012, 03:44 PM   #10
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Idea Re: How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

I used some tie down straps variable length and a small length of chain. I used a 2 foot piece of chain and made a non slip loop in the middle of it by bolting it together to make an approximately 2-3" loop for the cherry picker (engine hoist) , then used 3 different tie down straps (each with cinch buckles) so that I could hook them into the cradle, not the engine. Two for the engine end and one on the trans-axle end. By using the two on the engine end I could get them the right length to balance the cradle (keep it level) laterally. I used the other one and just threaded it through an added larger link in the chain and hooked it to the trans-axle end of the cradle. I only had 3 tie down straps, so I used three, I could have used 4 instead. I did hook up to 4 points (corners) on the cradle. Be very careful to avoid sharp edges where you route the straps, so that they aren't cut as you put tension on them. I tightened each tie-down to the length I needed to keep the cradle level and balanced before I removed the bolts. Make sure that you have straps that are able to carry the weight. I put some strain on the engine hoist to make sure that everything was tight. then removed the 4 cradle bolts. Lowered the cradle on some harbor freight moving (wheeled) dolly and voila. Only problem I had was getting car front end up high enough to wheel the cradle out from under the front of the car. I jacked the entire car up in the rear and put the rear wheels up on some 8x8 scrap post with nailed and glued wheel chocks. Used regular stands in the front till I had to move the cradle out from under, then used an 8x8 post (balanced on a floor jack) that was long enough to reach across the two major uni-body frame supports just aft of the cradle. Jacked up the front taking care to make sure back end did not come up. THIS is not an OSHA approved procedure! But it's how I did it. Good luck.

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Old 05-19-2012, 02:55 PM   #11
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Default Re: How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fokkersauras View Post
I used some tie down straps variable length and a small length of chain. I used a 2 foot piece of chain and made a non slip loop in the middle of it by bolting it together to make an approximately 2-3" loop for the cherry picker (engine hoist) , then used 3 different tie down straps (each with cinch buckles) so that I could hook them into the cradle, not the engine. Two for the engine end and one on the trans-axle end. By using the two on the engine end I could get them the right length to balance the cradle (keep it level) laterally. I used the other one and just threaded it through an added larger link in the chain and hooked it to the trans-axle end of the cradle. I only had 3 tie down straps, so I used three, I could have used 4 instead. I did hook up to 4 points (corners) on the cradle. Be very careful to avoid sharp edges where you route the straps, so that they aren't cut as you put tension on them. I tightened each tie-down to the length I needed to keep the cradle level and balanced before I removed the bolts. Make sure that you have straps that are able to carry the weight. I put some strain on the engine hoist to make sure that everything was tight. then removed the 4 cradle bolts. Lowered the cradle on some harbor freight moving (wheeled) dolly and voila. Only problem I had was getting car front end up high enough to wheel the cradle out from under the front of the car. I jacked the entire car up in the rear and put the rear wheels up on some 8x8 scrap post with nailed and glued wheel chocks. Used regular stands in the front till I had to move the cradle out from under, then used an 8x8 post (balanced on a floor jack) that was long enough to reach across the two major uni-body frame supports just aft of the cradle. Jacked up the front taking care to make sure back end did not come up. THIS is not an OSHA approved procedure! But it's how I did it. Good luck.
You said you hooked the straps into the cradle? How did you take the cradle off then?

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Old 05-27-2012, 03:55 PM   #12
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Default Re: How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

You can use an engine support or a couple 2x4s placed across the engine bay. I usually use ratchet straps around the engine or through the driver side engine support eye.

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Old 06-01-2012, 04:33 PM   #13
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Default Re: How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevster0522 View Post
You said you hooked the straps into the cradle? How did you take the cradle off then?
Sorry it took so long to reply. The straps were hooked to a chain on the cherry picker. Once all wiring and cables disconnected, I removed 4 cradle to frame bolts and lowered the entire cradle (complete drive train) to the ground ie,, to moving dolly's (from HB)

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Old 11-27-2012, 12:46 AM   #14
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Default Re: How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnV View Post
I agree with you, Gprime. Removing the steering was a pain. Although I did get a new set of craftsman flare wrenches out of it.

The ONLY reason I removed the steering was because I suspected the old steering rack was shot due to the PO driving forever with the front end messed up. The car was finally undriveabe because the steering was so shot.

If possible I would agree that leaving the steering in is much simpler and you won't disturb the power steering fluid.

Just how long was the PO driving? My subframe on the right is bent a bit. I drive it everyday though.

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Old 09-28-2014, 06:06 PM   #15
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Default Re: How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

Have a 2003 four-door L200 manual shift with rusted engine cradle. Looking for replacement at local salvage yards. Understand that's a crap shoot since it sounds like cradles rust from inside. Is there a difference between cradles of automatic and manual transmissions, or are they interchangeable? Salvage yard owner says he thinks it doesn't matter and has one for $150. He didn't convince me that they are interchangeable.

Have a welder who offers to patch cradle for $300, but afraid not a permanent solution. What do you think I should do?

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Old 10-01-2014, 10:42 AM   #16
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Default Re: How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

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Have a 2003 four-door L200 manual shift with rusted engine cradle. Looking for replacement at local salvage yards. Understand that's a crap shoot since it sounds like cradles rust from inside. Is there a difference between cradles of automatic and manual transmissions, or are they interchangeable? Salvage yard owner says he thinks it doesn't matter and has one for $150. He didn't convince me that they are interchangeable.

Have a welder who offers to patch cradle for $300, but afraid not a permanent solution. What do you think I should do?
Welcome to the L Series Forums at SaturnFans! Frankly, I don't know whether or not the engine cradle sub-frame interchangeable. (My hunch is that the wrecking yard owner is correct, but no hunch is enough to be relied upon.) I believe that you should be able to get an answer by contacting GM through the web address below for Saturn information. Click on the Saturn symbol. On the next page you may choose an online chat, or call the toll free number listed there.

http://www.gm.com/toolbar/contactUs.html

Our favorite GM Dealership's online parts information didn't list any information for the sub-frame whatsoever.

http://parts.nalleygmc.com/showAssem...rimLevel=14953

I don't have any firm opinion on welding the sub-frame, but it doesn't leave me feeling secure. If the wrecking yard part isn't as clean as you'd like, you may want to consider finding one from a region where winter driving typically doesn't include snow, i.e., South, Southwest, West Coast. Of course, shipping costs will be a concern. The web site below is for used car parts (wrecking yards).

http://www.car-part.com/index.htm

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Old 01-09-2015, 09:29 AM   #17
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Default Re: How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

I just completed this repair and thought I'd add some pictures to this thread on how I supported the drivetrain and maneuvered the cradle.

Notes:
-There is a 2x6 laying flat between the 2x4s to maintain spacing.
-Brake hardware is removed from drivers side to facilitate wheel bearing R&R not cradle repair.
-Torque on the 4 bolts is 151 ft-lbs.
-I advise checking the exhaust flange for leaks when complete.
-I unbolted the trans mount and dogbone mount from the cradle, dropped the cradle, removed trans mount and dogbone mount (saddle portion only), loosely installed both to the new cradle, then installed cradle. I found this method to be easy and prevented me from fussing with clearance problems that occur in doing them after cradle install.
-I didn't remove inner splash shields completely. Those little 7mm screws like to rust to their retainers. I just removed the forward push pin and bottom screw and held them out of the way with bungees.
-Protect your CV axle boots from the LCAs.
-Middle strap goes through the drivers side engine support eye to avoid rubbing with the fuel line bracket.
-Air box was removed for the strap around the trans.

Enjoy. (Click to enlarge the thumb)















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Old 01-17-2015, 06:53 PM   #18
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Default Re: How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

Good job. Did the dog help?

I think that there is an early subframe, then a later one, that covers most years. Manual and A/T are the same subframe.

I have a good Southern subframe that is setting in my mom's garage in NE Ohio that I would love to part with. It came from a Mobile AL PAP. Therefore, free of tin worms.

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Old 01-18-2015, 09:56 PM   #19
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Default Re: How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

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Good job. Did the dog help?

I think that there is an early subframe, then a later one, that covers most years. Manual and A/T are the same subframe.

I have a good Southern subframe that is setting in my mom's garage in NE Ohio that I would love to part with. It came from a Mobile AL PAP. Therefore, free of tin worms.
Haha. He got in the way more than he helped.

I crumpled the pass side many moons ago, and finally decided to do something about it. The new (to my SC2) one was from an 01 SL? that I painted with KBS RustSeal.

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Old 06-02-2015, 06:40 AM   #20
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Default Re: How-to Subframe engine cradle replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNW View Post
Good job. Did the dog help?

I think that there is an early subframe, then a later one, that covers most years. Manual and A/T are the same subframe.

I have a good Southern subframe that is setting in my mom's garage in NE Ohio that I would love to part with. It came from a Mobile AL PAP. Therefore, free of tin worms.
Hi Mike,

We live in NE Ohio.. (CLE area) and I'm looking for a subframe..
Would that subfame work on a 1995 SL2? Is it still available?

Thanks in Advance.

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