SaturnFans.com
what's new (beta) - classifieds - forums - photos


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn L-Series > L-Series Tech
Register FAQ Members List Groups Calendar Chat Room Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-17-2012, 12:56 PM   #1
CLaplume
Junior Member
CLaplume is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 19

2000 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Starting issues

Lately I go to start my 2000 ls2 after driving it fine. Go to start it, and it will turn over but won't fire. At all. Then I realize my security light is blinking. I wait about 10 minutes and the second that light stops blinking, I can start her right up and continue to my job that I am now late for. Any ideas on what I can do? It's done it about 5 20 times in the 2 years I've had it, 6 of them in the past 2 weeks..

...
-Corey Laplume
*2000 Saturn LS2
*cold air intake
*catback exhaust
*2 12" JL Subwoofers, 4 Kicker speakers, Sony stereo, = 1200watt system
*interier LED lighting
*210hp

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to CLaplume's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help CLaplume reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
CLaplume is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 09-17-2012, 01:21 PM   #2
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,000
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Starting issues

The flashing security light with 10-minute wait is "tamper mode" and normal, depending on one's point of view. It can occur if a theft attempt is made without using the ignition key to turn the ignition switch correctly, occur with an aftermarket remote start system (mine) when attempting to remote start the engine and during its programmed starting attempts trying the ignition switch to start, and if worn Passlock sensors triggers the security incorrectly. While no one has posted of issues with older Passlock systems (starting with Saturn MY 2000) wearing out and causing the tamper mode to randomly turn on, the few issues posted seem to be about possible worn ignition keys and/or ignition lock cylinders. The mechanical wear of keys/ignition switch has no direct affect on the Passlock sensors surrounding the lock cylinder but may be affected indirectly. Passlock in our Saturns depends on turning the ignition lock to physically allow Passlock sensors to synch with lock cylinder movement; the lock cylinder can only turn with the correctly cut key while turning the lock cylinder rotates Passlock sensors in synch to allow Passlock to determine correct cylinder rotation. This dance usually goes on without any issues but wear and tear of lock cylinders and keys over the years may cause random tamper mode to become enabled, forcing us to "sit in the corner" for a 10-minute time out!?

The least costly repair may be to simply buy a new ignition key from GM, cut from the car's VIN, not a store copy of the old key. If you have the spare key, try it and see if tamper mode goes away for a few days/week/whatever. It won't hurt to use a little lock lube too.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2012, 01:34 PM   #3
CLaplume
Junior Member
CLaplume is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 19

2000 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Starting issues

Thanks so much! The only sucky thing is this is my spare key. My other key (the main one) is so worn out, while the car is running, I could take the key out with out turning the car off. looks like I'll be hitting the GM up this week. Thanks again

...
-Corey Laplume
*2000 Saturn LS2
*cold air intake
*catback exhaust
*2 12" JL Subwoofers, 4 Kicker speakers, Sony stereo, = 1200watt system
*interier LED lighting
*210hp

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to CLaplume's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help CLaplume reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
CLaplume is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2012, 04:29 PM   #4
rustedradio
New Member
rustedradio is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 6
Default Re: Starting issues

Whoa dear lord. This may be the answer. I work out on the road and Im gone a lot. Well my gal is at home. "Babe the car wont start". Then later she will say oh it started. I get home play with it and still have no idea whats going on. Im about to rip the security system out...if I could find it.


Long story short I will def give this new key thing a shot. It sounded like the above poster also said before he got a new key he would leave the key on acc. till the security light went out? Thank you, rusted

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to rustedradio's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help rustedradio reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
rustedradio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 03:34 PM   #5
Stitch
New Member
Stitch is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Patterson, CA
Posts: 5

2000 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
2005 RELAY-3
Default Re: Starting issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
The flashing security light with 10-minute wait is "tamper mode" and normal, depending on one's point of view. It can occur if a theft attempt is made without using the ignition key to turn the ignition switch correctly, occur with an aftermarket remote start system (mine) when attempting to remote start the engine and during its programmed starting attempts trying the ignition switch to start, and if worn Passlock sensors triggers the security incorrectly. While no one has posted of issues with older Passlock systems (starting with Saturn MY 2000) wearing out and causing the tamper mode to randomly turn on, the few issues posted seem to be about possible worn ignition keys and/or ignition lock cylinders. The mechanical wear of keys/ignition switch has no direct affect on the Passlock sensors surrounding the lock cylinder but may be affected indirectly. Passlock in our Saturns depends on turning the ignition lock to physically allow Passlock sensors to synch with lock cylinder movement; the lock cylinder can only turn with the correctly cut key while turning the lock cylinder rotates Passlock sensors in synch to allow Passlock to determine correct cylinder rotation. This dance usually goes on without any issues but wear and tear of lock cylinders and keys over the years may cause random tamper mode to become enabled, forcing us to "sit in the corner" for a 10-minute time out!?

The least costly repair may be to simply buy a new ignition key from GM, cut from the car's VIN, not a store copy of the old key. If you have the spare key, try it and see if tamper mode goes away for a few days/week/whatever. It won't hurt to use a little lock lube too.
fdryer - I'll be the first to post (?) with an "older Passlock systems (starting with Saturn MY 2000) wearing out and causing the tamper mode to randomly turn on": I have a 2000 LW2 with what I assume is a first-gen Passlock system. I had to reset Passlock a few years ago due to a "no-start" issue, but then Passlock really started acting up about a year ago; the SECURITY light came on about a year ago (I'm guessing my BCM is failing), and hasn't gone off since, even after resetting Passlock several times. However, finally, it wouldn't start this morning, even after resetting the Passlock code, so I'm guessing my BCM has finally gone into "fail-disable" mode, instead of "fail-enable".

My last course of desperation is to try my valet key (which has never been used), as opposed to my two original-12 year old keys (which are VERY worn) and see if that solves the problem (hopefully!).

Keep you posted . . . .

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Stitch's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Stitch reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Stitch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 05:42 PM   #6
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,000
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Starting issues

Is the security light ON or flashing now? There's a difference. If flashing then Passlock is enabled, preventing fuel injection. Always ON would mean Passlock failed and is disabled from interfering with starting/running. The bcm may need to be replaced.

Saturn incorporated Passlock for MY 2000. To date, no one here has posted complete Passlock failure as the only BCM fault. BCM failure has caused many issues in addition to Passlock in failed/enabled mode; horns honking, lights flashing, wipers running, anything the bcm controls to indicate bcm failure. Most members in the past posting these "possessed" issues had their cars towed to Saturn for bcm replacement. As time passes, fewer bcm issues occur.

As long as the security light turns on/off at ignition ON time, the led is in working condition. If security is OFF during starting and the engine fails to fire up, there may be another issue somewhere else - possible crank position sensor failure.

A little more clarity is needed.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 10:41 PM   #7
Stitch
New Member
Stitch is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Patterson, CA
Posts: 5

2000 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
2005 RELAY-3
Default Re: Starting issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Is the security light ON or flashing now? There's a difference. If flashing then Passlock is enabled, preventing fuel injection. Always ON would mean Passlock failed and is disabled from interfering with starting/running. The bcm may need to be replaced.

Saturn incorporated Passlock for MY 2000. To date, no one here has posted complete Passlock failure as the only BCM fault. BCM failure has caused many issues in addition to Passlock in failed/enabled mode; horns honking, lights flashing, wipers running, anything the bcm controls to indicate bcm failure. Most members in the past posting these "possessed" issues had their cars towed to Saturn for bcm replacement. As time passes, fewer bcm issues occur.

As long as the security light turns on/off at ignition ON time, the led is in working condition. If security is OFF during starting and the engine fails to fire up, there may be another issue somewhere else - possible crank position sensor failure.

A little more clarity is needed.
The SECURITY light has been on (steady; not flashing) for a year now; it comes on as soon as I start the car and stays on (steady) until I shut her down. No idea how I've been able to get away with that for this long now. I've had to do the basic 10-minute start/on/off/start thing for the last few months now (about once a week), but I'm pretty sure the BCM has finally kicked the bucket this time (NOTHING works; even tried the valet key thing and it STILL won't start). Local dealership (GM) can't even look at it until next week, but I'm pretty sure the ultimate diagnosis will be a BCM replacement/reprogram.

P.S. Replaced the crank position sensor a few years ago, so hopefully that's NOT the problem (again).

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Stitch's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Stitch reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Stitch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 05:49 AM   #8
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,000
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Starting issues

With security ON all the time, Passlock has failed, bypassed by the bcm, and leaves the car enabled to start/run without any theft deterrent capability. In other words, the car can be started and driven away. There shouldn't be any reason to sit and wait for 'tamper' mode to pass (10 minutes). From your descriptions, no relearn was possible when Passlock remained ON before or after any relearn procedure. If anything, its possible for one or more sensors (the entire Passlock surround assembly) failed in the steering column and may need replacement to return Passlock back to operation.

As mentioned before, Passlock has never been the first to fail with bcm failure. Its always been other bcm related issues acting up before Passlock ultimately became enabled to prevent engine starting.

To isolate this as a possible Passlock sensor failure and not a bcm failure would require some extensive troubleshooting.

1-Passlock, when enabled, shuts off injectors during start. To see if injectors are shut off would be to remove spark plugs (after several starting attempts) and check for any raw fuel - fuel on plugs means Passlock isn't enabled and the ecm is injecting fuel. When Passlock is enabled, starting is the only event allowed; injectors prevented from operating leaves the engine cylinders without fuel while spark occurs.

2-A failed crank position sensor won't allow; the fuel pump to run, ignition for spark or pulse injectors. A fuel pressure gauge may be used to monitor this but can be tricky as initial fuel system priming occurs whenever the ignition switch is turned ON; the ecm turns on the fuel pump for 2-seconds then shuts down. A better way to see if the crank sensor failed would be a spark test.


I have less than 80k miles on my '03 L300 and replaced a failed crank sensor last summer...................

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2013, 08:36 PM   #9
Stitch
New Member
Stitch is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Patterson, CA
Posts: 5

2000 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
2005 RELAY-3
Default Re: Starting issues

Thank you for the response, fdryer!

So, I've been basically wasting my time attempting a Passlock re-learn this whole time?

The last time my crank position sensor failed, the car would start and run fine for about 10-15 minutes, then just die in the middle of the road; fortunately, I was never in the fast lane on a freeway when that happened (twice).

Unfortunately, my local GM dealer won't even be able to look at the car until next week, so I won't know what's really wrong with it until then; I'll let you know . . . . .

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Stitch's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Stitch reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Stitch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 02:52 PM   #10
Stitch
New Member
Stitch is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Patterson, CA
Posts: 5

2000 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
2005 RELAY-3
Default Re: Starting issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
With security ON all the time, Passlock has failed, bypassed by the bcm, and leaves the car enabled to start/run without any theft deterrent capability. In other words, the car can be started and driven away. There shouldn't be any reason to sit and wait for 'tamper' mode to pass (10 minutes). From your descriptions, no relearn was possible when Passlock remained ON before or after any relearn procedure. If anything, its possible for one or more sensors (the entire Passlock surround assembly) failed in the steering column and may need replacement to return Passlock back to operation.

As mentioned before, Passlock has never been the first to fail with bcm failure. Its always been other bcm related issues acting up before Passlock ultimately became enabled to prevent engine starting.

To isolate this as a possible Passlock sensor failure and not a bcm failure would require some extensive troubleshooting.

1-Passlock, when enabled, shuts off injectors during start. To see if injectors are shut off would be to remove spark plugs (after several starting attempts) and check for any raw fuel - fuel on plugs means Passlock isn't enabled and the ecm is injecting fuel. When Passlock is enabled, starting is the only event allowed; injectors prevented from operating leaves the engine cylinders without fuel while spark occurs.

2-A failed crank position sensor won't allow; the fuel pump to run, ignition for spark or pulse injectors. A fuel pressure gauge may be used to monitor this but can be tricky as initial fuel system priming occurs whenever the ignition switch is turned ON; the ecm turns on the fuel pump for 2-seconds then shuts down. A better way to see if the crank sensor failed would be a spark test.


I have less than 80k miles on my '03 L300 and replaced a failed crank sensor last summer...................
You called it: the CPS failed AGAIN! $270 parts & labor to replace. I guess it's BEEN failing, but finally kicked the bucket last week.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Stitch's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Stitch reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Stitch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Starting Issues CadillacMike S-Series Tech 1 01-23-2012 02:12 PM
starting issues jerrussell1976 S-Series Tech 8 06-30-2011 08:14 PM
Starting issues 04SilverIonChic Ion Tech 4 11-24-2009 01:50 PM
96 SC1 starting issues Joele8 S-Series Tech 1 06-11-2008 06:33 PM
odd starting issues kingvandal S-Series General 8 01-02-2007 03:20 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:18 PM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.