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Old 09-06-2012, 02:39 PM   #21
banman
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2002 SL1
Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

When I got around to fixing (cleaning) this (a month before emissions testing...) my pipe was clean. After pulling the manifold I could see the carbon buildup started at the 90`bend the airflow makes from the openings in the head to the manifold. I needed to use a drill to open those holes back up! I used the rounded end of a hacksaw blade to scrape the "1/2 pipe" profile of the manifold runners.

I suspect this happens because of the extraodinary amount of oil these little engines burn...

...
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Old 09-06-2012, 03:58 PM   #22
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by banman View Post
When I got around to fixing (cleaning) this (a month before emissions testing...) my pipe was clean. After pulling the manifold I could see the carbon buildup started at the 90`bend the airflow makes from the openings in the head to the manifold. I needed to use a drill to open those holes back up! I used the rounded end of a hacksaw blade to scrape the "1/2 pipe" profile of the manifold runners.

I suspect this happens because of the extraodinary amount of oil these little engines burn...
Thanks for the news - I guess. Well, I'm going to wait till morning to see if that pump is running - I'm suppose to feel for air coming from there? I don't think it was that thin pipe. I cleaned it and there was SOME carbon build up, but not much. This I was willing to do, but taking the manifold off and doing what you did sounds like a weekend job for me IF and only IF I would consider doing that type of work. I'm not mechanically inclined. Glad I have an office job. How long did it take you to do what you described? Looks like I need to move the AC out of the way and what else? AIR was blowing just fine out of the manifold when I started the car so, don't know if that really tells me much if those other 'runners' that you call them are clogged up.

My next inspection is due in less than three months. Any ideas of how to get through that one?

...
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Old 09-06-2012, 04:17 PM   #23
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

If you are getting strong exhaust flow out of the hole in the manifold where the tube was removed, you may be saved from the manifold removal. Sadly, "strong exhaust flow" is rather subjective. Do the cold start tomorrow morning with the tube still off. You want to feel a rush of air out of the diverter valve (the contraption on top of the a/c compressor that one end of the tube connected to). Air should flow for 30 seconds to a minute. The air pump is the black cylindrical thing behind the passenger headlight. You can hear it run if it works.

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Old 09-06-2012, 05:03 PM   #24
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSaturn02 View Post
Thanks for the news - I guess. Well, I'm going to wait till morning to see if that pump is running - I'm suppose to feel for air coming from there? I don't think it was that thin pipe. I cleaned it and there was SOME carbon build up, but not much. This I was willing to do, but taking the manifold off and doing what you did sounds like a weekend job for me IF and only IF I would consider doing that type of work. I'm not mechanically inclined. Glad I have an office job. How long did it take you to do what you described? Looks like I need to move the AC out of the way and what else? AIR was blowing just fine out of the manifold when I started the car so, don't know if that really tells me much if those other 'runners' that you call them are clogged up.

My next inspection is due in less than three months. Any ideas of how to get through that one?
youtube.com/watch?v=dIrmkxj6wJE (I'm not allowed to post a link yet so you'll have to fix the addy...)
Make sure you're clogged before you go through manifold removal!!!
Took me 1/2 a day to complete and I'm an experienced wrench, just new to saturns. I believe I did have to move the a/c out of the way but not discharge the a/c, you just move the mounting brackets.

There's some other good threads on the topic here if you search.

...
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Old 09-06-2012, 08:36 PM   #25
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by BV22 View Post
You want to feel a rush of air out of the diverter valve (the contraption on top of the a/c compressor that one end of the tube connected to). Air should flow for 30 seconds to a minute. The air pump is the black cylindrical thing behind the passenger headlight. You can hear it run if it works.
OK, so I found two things more likely to be wrong with mine from reading other threads - need to
1) check the fuse for the air pump
2) replace part 21210000 (can this be cleaned or do I just buy a new one)?

I'm guessing this because my carbon build up doesn't look/sound as bad as others have described.

...
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Old 09-07-2012, 07:06 AM   #26
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSaturn02 View Post
OK, so I found two things more likely to be wrong with mine from reading other threads - need to
1) check the fuse for the air pump
2) replace part 21210000 (can this be cleaned or do I just buy a new one)?

I'm guessing this because my carbon build up doesn't look/sound as bad as others have described.
Always check fuses. IIRC, that p/n is for the diverter valve. I would not replace it unless it has failed. Report your findings on the cold start test before planning to replace parts.

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Old 09-07-2012, 07:42 AM   #27
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Turned the car on and the air pump ran for approx 40 seconds. There was plenty of air coming out of the large hose going into the diverter valve. This means air pump and fuse are good? I didn't check for suction at the diverter valve - does the pump need to be running for that check? It is looking more and more like the diverter valve?

...
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:01 AM   #28
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSaturn02 View Post
Turned the car on and the air pump ran for approx 40 seconds. There was plenty of air coming out of the large hose going into the diverter valve. This means air pump and fuse are good? I didn't check for suction at the diverter valve - does the pump need to be running for that check? It is looking more and more like the diverter valve?
40 seconds is a normal run time for a September morning in Houston. Air pump and fuse are good. There is a little solenoid valve next to the diverter valve with two vacuum lines on it. One comes from the throttle body and this should always have vacuum with the engine running at idle. The short line only has vacuum when the air pump is running - same electrical signal runs the pump and shifts the solenoid to allow vacuum to pass through. Wait a while for the car to cool (presume you didn't run it very long) and pull the short vacuum line off the diverter valve. Start the car and check for vacuum on the open end of the short line while the air pump runs.

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Old 09-07-2012, 09:03 AM   #29
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by BV22 View Post
40 seconds is a normal run time for a September morning in Houston. Air pump and fuse are good. There is a little solenoid valve next to the diverter valve with two vacuum lines on it. One comes from the throttle body and this should always have vacuum with the engine running at idle. The short line only has vacuum when the air pump is running - same electrical signal runs the pump and shifts the solenoid to allow vacuum to pass through. Wait a while for the car to cool (presume you didn't run it very long) and pull the short vacuum line off the diverter valve. Start the car and check for vacuum on the open end of the short line while the air pump runs.
Both small vacuum lines on the diverter valve had suction. Now is it time for a new diverter valve? Looks like I need to disconnect the two 10mm bolts to the small pipe and check for air flow coming out of the diverter valve - I didn't do that the first time I disconnected to clean that small pipe. Sigh...

This reminds me of trips to the doctor and they run a battery of tests and find everything working correctly.

...
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:44 AM   #30
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

You are coming down the home stretch of this diagnosis. Remove the silver tube, remove the diverter valve and you will see a pintle in the valve which should be in the closed position as there is a spring to hold it there. You should be able to open the valve with finger pressure. If that checks out, start the car, let it idle and connect the vacuum line from the throttle body, the long one, to the diverter valve. Watch it carefully as you make the vacuum connection, and if it opens with the vacuum applied, it works. If it does not open, the actuator is shot and the valve needs to be replaced.

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Old 09-07-2012, 12:07 PM   #31
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Well, I don't see that pintle that you speak of in the valve. What is the closest thing to it? Should it be 'in' the area that feeds to the shiny pipe? Is it possible that it just broke off completely and that is why I don't see it/can't find it? What part of this valve should I be able to 'push' open with a finger? It all feels hard to me.

...
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:38 PM   #32
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

A picture would be worth 1000 words, but I don't have one, and the one in my mind is getting rather cloudy. I might have had the valve split apart (3 or 4 screws with flat blade screwdriver slots IIRC) to access the pintle.

Anyway, since you have already verified air flow to the supply of the diverter valve and vacuum to it, you really just need to do a cold start with the tube off and everything else connected. If air comes out of the diverter valve at the same pace you felt when you checked at the supply hose while the air pump runs, the diverter valve works. If there is no air flow, the diverter valve is shot.

I'm not very good at posting links, but in a thread I started called The Return of P0410, OldNuc provides the part number and a very good source for the valve (gmpartsdirect). It was less than $60 delivered to my door, and as you have already figured out, takes about 15 minutes to install.

And, there is no harm in using the car with the P0410 code active while you wait for the part.

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Old 09-07-2012, 12:43 PM   #33
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by BV22 View Post
A picture would be worth 1000 words, but I don't have one, and the one in my mind is getting rather cloudy. I might have had the valve split apart (3 or 4 screws with flat blade screwdriver slots IIRC) to access the pintle.

Anyway, since you have already verified air flow to the supply of the diverter valve and vacuum to it, you really just need to do a cold start with the tube off and everything else connected. If air comes out of the diverter valve at the same pace you felt when you checked at the supply hose while the air pump runs, the diverter valve works. If there is no air flow, the diverter valve is shot.

I'm not very good at posting links, but in a thread I started called The Return of P0410, OldNuc provides the part number and a very good source for the valve (gmpartsdirect). It was less than $60 delivered to my door, and as you have already figured out, takes about 15 minutes to install.

And, there is no harm in using the car with the P0410 code active while you wait for the part.
Thanks. I'll do that next (I think you are right - you have to take the diverter valve apart to see that pintle). I'm actually hoping I don't get air flow so I will KNOW it is that valve.

Oldnuc: Is that part number the same as the one I posted earlier in this thread? i.e., 21210000

Yep, confirmed it - http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...ighlight=P0410

I'm going to call the dealer first. If they will give me a 20% discount, I'll go with them, but if they are 100% higher than gmdirect, than I'm not going to support them on this high priced item.

...
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Sticker: $13,995 As of 09/30/17: 223,751 Miles - SOLD

2013 Mazda 3 HB - new in October 2012
Sticker: $20,850 As of 09/30/17: 38,381 Miles

Last edited by TXSaturn02; 09-07-2012 at 12:50 PM..

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Old 09-07-2012, 01:06 PM   #34
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Yeah, no air flow from diverter valve into the thin shiny pipe. Will have to buy that part. You guys keep making me learn more about a car I never intend to keep. I don't mind the learning - it is the pinched fingers and occasional burns that annoy me.

thanks again and I'll let you all know if this helps/works.

...
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Old 09-08-2012, 10:23 AM   #35
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Stopped by the dealership yesterday afternoon and picked up the new diverter valve. This morning (much cooler) I replaced it - took about 15 minutes (yeah, I'm slow). I drove to Lowes to get some new nuts since I couldn't get the old ones off the old valve. On the drive to the Lowes (about three miles), the code cleared up. All is good in the Bayou City!

I assume the old diverter valve goes to the dumpster?

Thanks BV22 and everyone else who helped in other threads!

...
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Old 09-09-2012, 10:15 AM   #36
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Well done! Keep that oil consumption low and you may never have to do the manifold cleanout.

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Old 09-15-2012, 09:36 AM   #37
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

I also live in Texas (Weatherford) so know what you mean on the summer heat. I also had the dreaded P0410 on my 02 SC1 a couple months ago. Took the car to Firestone to get it checked out. They did their thing and said they could not turn the pump on with their scan tools (2) so the PCM was bad, spent 75 bucks and really got nothing in the end. I got on the forum and found the richpin vidio (and many posts from BV22 and oldnuc and others). Checked all the air flows on the valve, pump and exhaust and all seemed good. Removed the manifold and checked the passages in the head and block and all were clear. Replaced the ECTS and front 02 sensor but no help. After much checking I found the deverter valve not working. I had checked this probably fifty times before so I now am assuming the thing was sticking at times. I replaced the valve and selonide and now have a little over 500 miles on it without the SES and P0410, knock on wood. I have also seen posts here that folks have run several hundred miles before the code reappeared so at the moment I am holding my breath and hoping the valve fixed the problem. This code seems to be a real pain in the but to actually fix.
I do want to thank the many posters, oldnuc, BV22, richpin and all the others for the great posts on this problem. They have been a wealth of information and help in getting to the bottom of this code, thank you all.

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