SaturnFans.com
what's new (beta) - classifieds - forums - photos


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series Tech
Register FAQ Members List Groups Calendar Chat Room Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-06-2012, 11:19 PM   #1
PlasticCarsRock
Master Member
PlasticCarsRock is a jewel in the roughPlasticCarsRock is a jewel in the roughPlasticCarsRock is a jewel in the rough
 
PlasticCarsRock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Brookline, MA
Posts: 4,303
 

1995 SL2
Default New lifter drains down sometimes when parked--how to tell which one...

I have a '95 SL2. It was rebuild 25k ago, reusing the old lifters. Last weekend, I installed aftermarket cams (SDA Street) along with new Sealed Power lifters (purchased from Advance, which strangely has by far the best price on them). Everything was installed and broken in correctly. Most of the lifters looked very nice and were sealed in plastic bags with oil. They had straight machining marks across the top (all intersecting in the middle). A few had curved machining lines and were not sealed in bags (just loose in the boxs). They were not used, but based on the roughness of the inside seam, they might have been of lower quality.

Unfortunately, this is my daily driver, so I did not have time to investigate the difference, but I figured they probably just changed slightly, at some point.

Now, in retrospect, I'm a bit worried that someone may have switched them out with a cheaper brand and returned them as new.

So anyway, sometimes I have a very significant lifter tick for about 1-2 seconds when I start the car (only sometimes, because the amount of pressure on the lifter depends on which way the cam is, when it stops).

I'm using 5w-30 Royal Purple HPS oil (the high-zddp version) and a M1-209 (oversized Mobil 1) oil filter. (I changed the oil and filter after breaking in the cams.)

Is there any way to tell which lifter is leaking down? I don't suppose it's likely that it's because of a bad anti-drain-back valve in the filter...?

Should I just replace all of the lifters that didn't match (4 or 5) and see if that helps? Should I replace all 16? (Obviously it wouldn't be that hard to replace them all as long as I'm doing one, and I don't think there would be trouble getting them covered under warranty, but now that the cams and lifters are broken into eachother, it's better not to change them if it's not necessary.)

I emailed Sealed Power about the difference in designs, but they have not responded, yet.

Thanks!

...
High compression build: .033" shaved/ported head, flat-faced valves; gen3 rods, pistons, tie-plate; OE header, custom CAI, SDA street cams with adjustable sprockets, WBO2, SAFCII, LSD. ASE A1-A8+L1

Last edited by PlasticCarsRock; 05-06-2012 at 11:28 PM..

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to PlasticCarsRock's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help PlasticCarsRock reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
PlasticCarsRock is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 05-06-2012, 11:28 PM   #2
td1238
Master Member
td1238 will become famous soon enoughtd1238 will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 2,034

1999 SL2
Default Re: New lifter drains down sometimes when parked--how to tell which one...

If leak-down is significant, you should be able to observe slack in the rockers/cam followers when each valve is closed. Rotate engine to close valves in question. Allow valves to close and then rotate a bit more to be sure that you are off of any quieting ramp. Then test.

My '99 SL2 sometimes makes a small amount of clatter when it first starts, but it has 235k on it. Doesn't worry me, really, although the cam followers can sometimes fall out of place on the late model DOHCs, when the lifters/adjusters collapse. Other than that, however, brief ticking when the engine is first started is not going to harm anything. Solid lifter cars make quite a bit of noise for a long time until the engine is warm and normalized, and this causes no harm to the valve train. Honda Civic 1.5s are notorious for a fairly loud clattering sound that doesn't go away until the engine is warm. I've heard this noise on engines with only 19k on the odo. Our 1990 has 265k, and everything still works well, even with the clacking valves. My 1951 Chevrolet also has solid lifters, and clatters quite a bit when first cold. Sometimes, in the winter, the valves would be noisy all the time, unless I adjusted them seasonally, which sometimes I did, because it got annoying.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to td1238's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help td1238 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
td1238 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2012, 11:45 PM   #3
PlasticCarsRock
Master Member
PlasticCarsRock is a jewel in the roughPlasticCarsRock is a jewel in the roughPlasticCarsRock is a jewel in the rough
 
PlasticCarsRock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Brookline, MA
Posts: 4,303
 

1995 SL2
Default Re: New lifter drains down sometimes when parked--how to tell which one...

Quote:
Originally Posted by td1238 View Post
If leak-down is significant, you should be able to observe slack in the rockers/cam followers when each valve is closed. Rotate engine to close valves in question. Allow valves to close and then rotate a bit more to be sure that you are off of any quieting ramp. Then test.

My '99 SL2 sometimes makes a small amount of clatter when it first starts, but it has 235k on it. Doesn't worry me, really, although the cam followers can sometimes fall out of place on the late model DOHCs, when the lifters/adjusters collapse. Other than that, however, brief ticking when the engine is first started is not going to harm anything. Solid lifter cars make quite a bit of noise for a long time until the engine is warm and normalized, and this causes no harm to the valve train. Honda Civic 1.5s are notorious for a fairly loud clattering sound that doesn't go away until the engine is warm. I've heard this noise on engines with only 19k on the odo. Our 1990 has 265k, and everything still works well, even with the clacking valves. My 1951 Chevrolet also has solid lifters, and clatters quite a bit when first cold. Sometimes, in the winter, the valves would be noisy all the time, unless I adjusted them seasonally, which sometimes I did, because it got annoying.
This is a 1995 DOHC. The cams ride directly on top of bucket lifters. There are no rockers. While in some circumstances, it may be considered acceptable, it certainly is not acceptable with new lifters costing several hundred dollars...

As far as trying to observe clearance between the cam and the lifters: this issue only happens once every few times the car sits: unless I get particularly lucky, there's a good chance I'll take it apart on one of the times when everything is fine. I suppose if I had several days during which I didn't need to drive anywhere, I could turn it a bit each day to be sure it sat in the right position, but I don't foresee this happening. Besides: when turning it slowly by hand, wouldn't the spring in the lifter take up any observable slack?

...
High compression build: .033" shaved/ported head, flat-faced valves; gen3 rods, pistons, tie-plate; OE header, custom CAI, SDA street cams with adjustable sprockets, WBO2, SAFCII, LSD. ASE A1-A8+L1

Last edited by PlasticCarsRock; 05-06-2012 at 11:51 PM..

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to PlasticCarsRock's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help PlasticCarsRock reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
PlasticCarsRock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2012, 11:53 PM   #4
td1238
Master Member
td1238 will become famous soon enoughtd1238 will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 2,034

1999 SL2
Default Re: New lifter drains down sometimes when parked--how to tell which one...

I guess. Ideally they should not leak down. It causes no harm, though, so long as they fill within a second or two. Some brand new cars make a bit of noise when first started.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to td1238's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help td1238 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
td1238 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2012, 10:19 PM   #5
PlasticCarsRock
Master Member
PlasticCarsRock is a jewel in the roughPlasticCarsRock is a jewel in the roughPlasticCarsRock is a jewel in the rough
 
PlasticCarsRock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Brookline, MA
Posts: 4,303
 

1995 SL2
Default Re: New lifter drains down sometimes when parked--how to tell which one...

Any other ideas?

...
High compression build: .033" shaved/ported head, flat-faced valves; gen3 rods, pistons, tie-plate; OE header, custom CAI, SDA street cams with adjustable sprockets, WBO2, SAFCII, LSD. ASE A1-A8+L1

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to PlasticCarsRock's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help PlasticCarsRock reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
PlasticCarsRock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2012, 11:05 PM   #6
td1238
Master Member
td1238 will become famous soon enoughtd1238 will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 2,034

1999 SL2
Default Re: New lifter drains down sometimes when parked--how to tell which one...

You're looking at a very short window of observation. Ideally the observation should be made with the cam cover off. A cardboard baffle should be made for the chain so that it doesn't spray oil all over.

Two methods suggested in my Chevrolet shop manual (1951) are to either place one end of a short length of garden hose near each lifter and listen for the noisy one(s), or to place the finger on the face of the valve spring retainer. If the lifter is not functioning properly, a distinct shock will be felt when the valve returns to its seat.

This was suggested for the 235 cu.in. engines equipped with hydraulic lifters.

Since your lifters only do this for 2 seconds, you will have about 2 seconds to observe this, and you'll have to hope that they leaked down when you start the engine.

Several cleaning/emergency repair methods are suggested, and it is suggested that ideally a faulty lifter be replaced and not repaired. They are a select fit from the factory, and parts should not be interchanged. Etc., etc., etc.

It was also stated that it is normal sometimes for the lifters to empty of oil, and for a bit of clatter to be heard for a few seconds when the engine is first started after sitting for some time. They do have leak-down rates, though in the 'lift' mode are generally supposed to stay sealed. They should leak down when not under tension, though, as insufficient leak-down does not allow them to adjust, especially at higher speeds, which would cause valve floating. Excessive leak-down, however, causes noise, which, in extreme cases, can occur even after considerable operation of the engine.

Granted this is 1951, and not 199x, but similar tolerances were met in those engines.

The method I suggested is probably about as good as those above--to check for valves with excessive slack with the engine off. A lifter that has leaked down enough to allow the valves to clack at start-up will probably also allow significant movement by hand.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to td1238's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help td1238 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
td1238 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2012, 11:13 PM   #7
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant future
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 51,348
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: New lifter drains down sometimes when parked--how to tell which one...

About the only way to find the offender is to catch it in the act while probing the head with a stethoscope.

Based on the packaging of some of the lifters I would expect that they would be the most likely offender and go from there. Did Advance have these on the shelf or have to order them? If on the shelf I would be most suspicious of the oddball lifters. Dry is not good.

You can pull them all out and squeeze test them and see if one is leaking and that is not much fun either.

It is possible the non bagged lifters are resurfaced used lifters so what did the sides look like?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2012, 11:31 PM   #8
PlasticCarsRock
Master Member
PlasticCarsRock is a jewel in the roughPlasticCarsRock is a jewel in the roughPlasticCarsRock is a jewel in the rough
 
PlasticCarsRock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Brookline, MA
Posts: 4,303
 

1995 SL2
Default Re: New lifter drains down sometimes when parked--how to tell which one...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
About the only way to find the offender is to catch it in the act while probing the head with a stethoscope.

Based on the packaging of some of the lifters I would expect that they would be the most likely offender and go from there. Did Advance have these on the shelf or have to order them? If on the shelf I would be most suspicious of the oddball lifters. Dry is not good.

You can pull them all out and squeeze test them and see if one is leaking and that is not much fun either.

It is possible the non bagged lifters are resurfaced used lifters so what did the sides look like?
Thanks for the response.

I have a stethoscope, but I don't think it's very likely that I'll be able to determine anything with it. It seems to happen about once per week (maybe 1 in 20 starts), so the chance of being able to observe/listen to it with the valve cover off is pretty slim (not really worth trying...).

The lifters were ordered from website and ostensibly shipped from a distribution center or warehouse somewhere (definitely not from a local store). Local stores only stock 1-2 if any, so even if they had been returned by a customer to a local store, there's a good chance they would have been sent back to the distribution center.

I did not notice any wear marks on the sides of the lifters, but often wear is not evident on the sides... I doubt they're resurfaced (there's no core charge, and I haven't seen resurfaced ones sold anywhere), but it's certainly possible.

Please describe the "squeeze test" to me... Is it an accurate way to determine with certainty, which lifter is the problem, or just a possible indication? I don't think it will be too difficult to make a brace to hold the sprockets in place while removing the cams, so checking/replacing the lifters probably won't be too much trouble, but obviously I'd like to get it done in one shot. If I take it apart, I'll definitely replace all the odd ones with new ones, but I'd like to verify that one of them is the problem, while I have it apart.

...
High compression build: .033" shaved/ported head, flat-faced valves; gen3 rods, pistons, tie-plate; OE header, custom CAI, SDA street cams with adjustable sprockets, WBO2, SAFCII, LSD. ASE A1-A8+L1

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to PlasticCarsRock's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help PlasticCarsRock reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
PlasticCarsRock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2012, 11:33 PM   #9
td1238
Master Member
td1238 will become famous soon enoughtd1238 will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 2,034

1999 SL2
Default Re: New lifter drains down sometimes when parked--how to tell which one...

12345

Last edited by td1238; 05-15-2012 at 11:44 PM..

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to td1238's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help td1238 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
td1238 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 12:15 AM   #10
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant future
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 51,348
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: New lifter drains down sometimes when parked--how to tell which one...

You take the lifter between fingers and press on the lifter and the bucket and see if it squirts oil out the side port. The check ball is supposed to be lightly loaded closed so oil pressure is required to open it. Any cam pressure on the lifter tends to hold the ball seated and if it is gong to bleed down it is going to be when it is on the heel of the cam and pressure holding the ball is minimum or zero. If the bleed down was due to full spring pressure it would most likely be happening more often.

They can be resurfaced but I have no idea how deep the hard face is.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sunroof drains? Saturnboy2002 S-Series General 5 10-10-2011 12:55 PM
sunroof drains 2006 ion2 Ion Tech 15 09-07-2011 08:30 AM
Sun Roof Drains todd8 Vue Tech 2 10-02-2010 02:21 PM
sunroof drains john_flick S-Series Tech 0 03-24-2005 10:01 AM
Sunroof drains spider 1604 S-Series General 10 08-02-2004 01:58 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:19 PM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.