SaturnFans.com Forums

SaturnFans.com Forums (http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/index.php)
-   General Saturn Discussion (http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=10)
-   -   New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As Poten (http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136811)

Charlie 04-13-2009 12:45 AM

New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As Poten
 
A new story entry has been added:

[drupal=2968]New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As Potential Partner[/drupal]

[quote]Automotive News recently talked with GM's new CEO, Fritz Henderson, about the state of General Motors and how he plans to fulfill the restructuring demands made by the Obama administration. While most of the interview focused on the company's new so-called core brands, the UAW, and it bloated dealership body, Henderson did discuss Saturn's desire to be spun-off, becoming independent of GM.[/quote]

marx404 04-13-2009 06:24 AM

Re: New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As P
 
I just wonder where they got the Peugeot story from?

VTHokie00SL2 04-13-2009 07:52 AM

Re: New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As P
 
Why keep the Saturn name alive under a foreign brand when the whole point was to have a competitive American car company?

TaylorMutts 04-13-2009 09:25 AM

Re: New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As P
 
Regardless of who the manufacturing source might be, do you think it is really necessary for Saturn to only sell US built vehicles? Isn't it more about the buying and ownership experience that sets Saturn apart from the other brands?

How do you feel about the Astra and the current VUE? Both are built out of the country, yet are great vehicles sold and serviced by great retailers.

For good or bad, the world has changed since 1990. It seems only fitting that Saturn evolve as well. I'd like to see what the future holds.

saturn_69 04-13-2009 09:40 AM

Re: New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As P
 
[QUOTE=VTHokie00SL2;1433078]Why keep the Saturn name alive under a foreign brand when the whole point was to have a competitive American car company?[/QUOTE]

For the same reason you bought a car built by a foreign company and yet still come here to post.

marx404 04-13-2009 01:26 PM

Re: New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As P
 
[QUOTE=TaylorMutts;1433125]Regardless of who the manufacturing source might be, do you think it is really necessary for Saturn to only sell US built vehicles? Isn't it more about the buying and ownership experience that sets Saturn apart from the other brands?

How do you feel about the Astra and the current VUE? Both are built out of the country, yet are great vehicles sold and serviced by great retailers.

For good or bad, the world has changed since 1990. It seems only fitting that Saturn evolve as well. I'd like to see what the future holds.[/QUOTE]

Mr Mutts: I have been wanting the Astra to be part of my family's 12 Saturns for years now. Well, finally it arrived in the US and I got one. My XE is my 4th personal Saturn and possibly the nicest car I have ever owned. Although Saturns have been the most reliable cars our family has had through the years the fit and finish was never quite right. That all changed with the Astra. I have had it for 5 months now with absolutely no fit or finish problems ([I]or major mechanical problems either[/I]). If this is the direction of quality that the new Saturn is going in we are definitely headed in the right direction!

VTHokie00SL2 04-13-2009 04:57 PM

Re: New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As P
 
[QUOTE=TaylorMutts;1433125]Regardless of who the manufacturing source might be, do you think it is really necessary for Saturn to only sell US built vehicles? Isn't it more about the buying and ownership experience that sets Saturn apart from the other brands? [/QUOTE]

No, for me it was always more about the car than the retail side and marketing bs. And yes, I did buy a car from a foreign company, but I don't feel the same sense of pride with my Subaru that I did with the old Saturn. I'd have stuck with Saturn if they didn't let me down. And I wish there was a truly American car that I wanted to buy.

VTHokie00SL2 04-13-2009 05:11 PM

Re: New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As P
 
I went to the NY auto show today...there are some really nice looking cars from the US manufacturers. I like the Ford Fusion, but wish it wasn't built in Mexico. The Chevy Volt looks very cool, though it's expensive and the technology is obviously new. Buick even has some nice looking sedans now!

I like the VW CC, but man it's expensive with the V-6 and AWD. I was just as disappointed with the new Subaru Legacy in person as I was with the photos, unfortunately. I don't think I'll be buying another Subaru. :no:

lococrzy 04-13-2009 05:21 PM

Re: New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As P
 
Peugeot ???

have you seen their cars?

They better develop bigger and better cars if they want them to be successful in the states

VTHokie00SL2 04-13-2009 05:22 PM

Re: New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As P
 
Oh, saw the Chevy Cruze for the first time...didn't look like anything special. I don't care for the filler piece behind the back door where they kind of cheated, but it looks better I suppose than having the glass end abruptly with no filler, like with the Saturn Ion.

GR898SL2 04-13-2009 06:53 PM

Re: New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As P
 
[QUOTE=lococrzy;1433500]Peugeot ???

have you seen their cars?

They better develop bigger and better cars if they want them to be successful in the states[/QUOTE]

I can see American buyers being turned off by Peugeot's quirky (French) styling, but I don't think the vehicles necessarily have to be bigger or better. The 207's dimensions are in line with any Focus, Civic, Sentra or Cobalt. Remember that whoever partners up with Saturn has to build the vehicle to Saturn's specifications.

I also suspect that PSA is in better financial health than Mitsubishi.

:flag:

youknowme 04-13-2009 09:15 PM

Re: New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As P
 
[QUOTE=TaylorMutts;1433125]Regardless of who the manufacturing source might be, do you think it is really necessary for Saturn to only sell US built vehicles? Isn't it more about the buying and ownership experience that sets Saturn apart from the other brands?

How do you feel about the Astra and the current VUE? Both are built out of the country, yet are great vehicles sold and serviced by great retailers.

For good or bad, the world has changed since 1990. It seems only fitting that Saturn evolve as well. I'd like to see what the future holds.[/QUOTE]

The future is crap jobs selling goods to people who either have a crap job, or work in the health care industry. Thanks to the policies of the last 8 years, the internet, IT, manufacturing, and now finance, are garbage sectors in america. No thanks. Those of you willing to gamble your future, go visit England, to see what life is like without industry. Its a two class society.

If a corporation stops providing value to the society, it has no value. Saturn is worthless unless it has more meaning than just the car.

There are plenty of asian branded vehicles that are equal or better to the VUE and Astra that are at least built here.

youknowme 04-13-2009 09:21 PM

Re: New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As P
 
[QUOTE=GR898SL2;1433571]I can see American buyers being turned off by Peugeot's quirky (French) styling, but I don't think the vehicles necessarily have to be bigger or better. The 207's dimensions are in line with any Focus, Civic, Sentra or Cobalt. Remember that whoever partners up with Saturn has to build the vehicle to Saturn's specifications.

I also suspect that PSA is in better financial health than Mitsubishi.

:flag:[/QUOTE]

I have say PSA is the best of the possible players I have heard so far. I just got done typing(on another thread) that I had a very nice time recently in a 307CC in germany. I personally like the styling of Pugs. The 307( in grey metallic) was a real looker. No guts on the autobahn, but, eh,,, that can be fixed.

They have solid products, good engineering, and thanks to the exchange rate, would probably welcome building these in the US. Plus, they have dabled in polymer over the years. So, lets toss out the Freedom fries, and welcome the French! Viva la Peugot!

youknowme 04-13-2009 09:33 PM

Re: New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As P
 
[QUOTE=lococrzy;1433500]Peugeot ???

have you seen their cars?

They better develop bigger and better cars if they want them to be successful in the states[/QUOTE]

They have quite good cars. Trust me. And even a few big cars. Go google some modern PSA designs...they are quite good.[IMG]http://www.driveguide.com.au/uploads/image24265_a.jpg[/IMG]

youknowme 04-13-2009 09:37 PM

Re: New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As P
 
[QUOTE=VTHokie00SL2;1433496]The Chevy Volt looks very cool, though it's expensive and the technology is obviously new. Buick even has some nice looking sedans now! [/QUOTE]

I loved the Volt initially, but now I think its going to look so dated when it hits the streets,in comparison the Prius redesign is actually a little stylish.

Buick...can't wait till they go under or get sold or leased out entirely to the Chinese.

Sival 04-13-2009 09:39 PM

Re: New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As P
 
The problem with Peugeots is more one of engine and transmission choice I suppose. Peugeot (and Citroen, both are part of the same group) is known for its diesel engines, which aren't a big seller in North America. They do have gas engines but, well, the strongest gas engine they put in a 207 is a 1.6L engine, which gives 150 hp in its turbo version or 120 in its standard version. Peugeot offers a 4 speed automatic for its 1.6L non-turbo engine, but equipped this way its 0-100 Km/h (roughly 0-60 mph) is slower than 11 seconds. Unless they put in a stronger engine (like VW does) there's a potential problem there.

montrealvue 04-13-2009 10:24 PM

Re: New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As P
 
[QUOTE=VTHokie00SL2;1433078]Why keep the Saturn name alive under a foreign brand when the whole point was to [I]have a competitive American car company[/I]?[/QUOTE] Yeah that worked out well for them so far.....I would say plan B should be in order. Forget about being American, think about staying alive first!

eelfliw 04-13-2009 10:57 PM

Re: New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As P
 
Unfortunately, this article does not detail what the "partnership" means. It can mean a lot of different things.

And Henderson is right about where GM's problem lie :

[QUOTE]While most of the interview focused on the company's new so-called core brands, the UAW, and it bloated dealership body,[/QUOTE]

GM has too many "brands". The Lambda chassis, for example, is sold by 4 different brands (Buick, Chev, GMC & Saturn). That's 4X the marketing, cosmetic engineering (read packaging), secondary manufacturing (eg. brand specific assembly), sales, parts logistics etc., and all the overhead (read management) to run these operations just to sell 1 platform. Reducing the number of brands to fewer "core" brands to sell 1 model per platform will dramatically cut costs associated with selling a platform.

Speaking of costs, the UAW is a massive cost for GM that foreign transplants do not have. The money doesn't just go to current workers. The pensions, healthcare benefits, 401K etc. all add up.

Finally, the dealership network is just massive. I live in a big city that has several "auto malls" (areas with a congregation of many car dealerships). Some of these auto malls has Pontiac/Buick/GMC dealership on one end, Chev on the other end and Saturn/Saab sandwiched in the middle. That's 3X the people to serve one set of GM customers.

So, getting rid of Saturn will help GM in the long run. In the mean time, Saturn needs to salvage what it has going for it to recover some of the investments people made in building the dealerships.

Partnering with Peugeot may or may not help both sides of the party depending on the degree of partnership. Here's one possible scenerio : Peugeot needs North American presence and Saturn need products to market. But what does Peugeot know about the North American market? Probably not as much as Saturn. As such, if Saturn designs the cars, shares cosmetic engineering with Peugeot and sells/services Peugeot cars, while leaving the manufacturing to Peugeot (let them deal with union issues - one of the key issue that's dogging GM), then Saturn effectively avoids all the problem GM is having now (too many brands, manufacturing unions and bloated dealer network).

The question is, will Peugeot (or anyone other manufacturer) bite?

Sival 04-13-2009 11:16 PM

Re: New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As P
 
[QUOTE]Speaking of costs, the UAW is a massive cost for GM that foreign transplants do not have. The money doesn't just go to current workers. The pensions, healthcare benefits, 401K etc. all add up.[/QUOTE]

The main problem is the pension and health care to retirees, take that away and the difference between the transplants and the unionized factories is small. My preferred option would be to force all plants making cars in the US to have the same pension fund so as to level the playing field (making Toyota and Honda pay for the workers from the American companies that they replaced with their own). But that's not in the cards, unfortunately, so the system that is in place actually is one that directly punishes companies for treating their employees well, I fail to see how that is good.

In terms of man-hours to make one car, unionized factories in the US are about as efficient as the Japanese factories.

eelfliw 04-14-2009 12:25 AM

Re: New GM CEO Not Fazed by Future Competition from Saturn Brand, Peugeot Cited As P
 
[QUOTE=Sival;1433707]The main problem is the pension and health care to retirees, take that away and the difference between the transplants and the unionized factories is small.[/QUOTE]

I wonder if bankruptcy is the only way for GM to get out of its commitment for those rich defined-benefit pension plan?

If so, I feel bad for the retired workers. That was the plan they signed up for years ago and now, through no fault of their own, they lose the pensions. Those plans were unsustainable given today's economy (stock market tanked, near zero bond rates, Obama administration printing money, etc.) May be hyperinflation is the only way to get out of this mess since this culture is so adverse to pay cuts.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:51 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.