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-   -   95 sl2 wont start , just replaced timing chain (http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187242)

robul 12-15-2012 12:42 PM

95 sl2 wont start , just replaced timing chain
 
Hello all, I would appreciate any advice, I have pretty much hit a mental block on this car.

I sold the car to my part time employee, He has been driving it for about a year, He is disabled so he cant work on it himself so whenever something happens its on my plate, so I find out he had been driving it for some time when it was making a ton of noise, he didn't tell me because he didn't want to bother me with it, I diagnosed the noise and told him it needed a timing chain tensioner, The timing chain was hittnig the valve cover. So I planned the repair and told him to not drive unless he had to. He informed me the car would run OK until it got hot, it would lose all power and not be able to accelerate, Would spudder and die sometimes. But after it cooled down he could start it and drive it fine. Until one day in front of my store it started up then sputtered and died then wouldn't start again, I immediately got upset and told him he probably ruined the motor the chain probably broke and he bent some valves.

So I towed the car home and started the tear down, After I got it apart I found out the chain did not break and no teeth where skipped, but the tensioner was hosed, It would create tension then lose it all. So I hoped a new chain and tensioner would get her back into action. So I replaced the chain and tensioner, I used the all data instruction , lined up the crank at tdc , Lined up the cam sprockets, (was only able to get a drill bit in the front cam, The rear one for some reason could not find the hole , but I did eyeball and the dot looked like it was perfectly lined up where it should have been. After installation I turned it over by hand many times and it was smoooth , quiet and looked to be perfectly where it needed to be. So I put the car back together and filled her with oil. Now the car turns over and sounds exactly like it should but will still not start. At this point I think maybe there was something else going on with the car when it died and it wasn't actually the loose chain. So I start digging into possible failures.

The Car has spark, Has fuel pressure, I have replaced both Engine temp sensors, I replaced the plug for that same sensor as well, I have replaced the cam position sensor, I have replaced spark plugs, spark plug wires. If the car sits for a period of time when you first turn it over it actually tries to start but spits and spudders and dies, After that it simply turns over, If I floor the gas pedal to turn of the injectors it pops like an intake backfire. I have pulled the plugs and they are soaked with fuel, I have multiple times blown the fuel out of the cyl with the plugs out, put a teaspoon of oil in each cyl and ran the 30 second cycles to clear bad starts, I had read this forum up and down and I am at a point where I'm not going to keep throwing parts at it until I figure out whats really wrong, My next steps I guess are to run a compression check on the motor. If compression is good my only other guess would be if that back cam was possible a single tooth off, I don't see how it could have been but I guess its possible since I didn't find the drill bit hole. But before I tear it all the way down please give me any tips or possible some insight on something I have overlooked. Is it possible the coil packs are bad and its giving spark but just not enough?

Thanks so much and please let me know if you have any additional questions! Free beer to anyone in corpus christi tx that would like to take a look in person. :)

robul 12-15-2012 12:47 PM

Re: 95 sl2 wont start , just replaced timing chain
 
I also pulled the o2 out to make sure there wasnt a blockage in the exhaust and no joy as well..

fetchitfido 12-15-2012 12:57 PM

Re: 95 sl2 wont start , just replaced timing chain
 
Hope you meant to say Crank Position Sensor, not Cam Position Sensor (no cam position sensor to replace).

I don't know why but any time I've done engine work that disconnects the fuel lines it goes from not getting fuel at all, to flooding with fuel. It sounds as though flooding is the problem, so did you get 2 different part numbers for the CTS's or two of the same?
I'd also verify the splice for the new 2-wire sensor connector is good (soldiered, not crimped), I don't believe it cares about polarity but a bad connection with the 2-wire sensor for '91-'95's won't show on the gauge.

Spark plug wiring:
1234 [cam cover end]
4123 [coil pack end]
with 1&4 routed next to each other.

It should still start & run with a camshaft 1 tooth off, but it won't run very good. If compression is less then 180psi it really needs a rebuild, though I've seen posts from people with a running motor down to ~130psi.

robul 12-15-2012 01:25 PM

Re: 95 sl2 wont start , just replaced timing chain
 
[QUOTE=fetchitfido;1936451]Hope you meant to say Crank Position Sensor, not Cam Position Sensor (no cam position sensor to replace).

I don't know why but any time I've done engine work that disconnects the fuel lines it goes from not getting fuel at all, to flooding with fuel. It sounds as though flooding is the problem, so did you get 2 different part numbers for the CTS's or two of the same?
I'd also verify the splice for the new 2-wire sensor connector is good (soldiered, not crimped), I don't believe it cares about polarity but a bad connection with the 2-wire sensor for '91-'95's won't show on the gauge.

Spark plug wiring:
1234 [cam cover end]
4123 [coil pack end]
with 1&4 routed next to each other.

It should still start & run with a camshaft 1 tooth off, but it won't run very good. If compression is less then 180psi it really needs a rebuild, though I've seen posts from people with a running motor down to ~130psi.[/QUOTE]

Yes that's Correct It was the Crank sensor, The coil packs did jump spark before I replaced it but I went ahead and threw one at it anyhow it was only 15 dollars. I have verified the spark wiring, The engine is pretty fresh I built a re man about 30,000 miles ago, I will verify compression never the less. I will double check the connection for the new plug as well. I did not solder it yet I used wire nuts for a short term solution until I took my solder station home, I will go ahead and solder tomorrow. And yes I agree on the flooding. My fuel pressure gauge lost its o ring so I cant verify the pressure is high I just know it jumps up and drops down because its leaking from the connection on the gauge, I will get a seal and ensure fuel pressure is not too high.

The reason I replaced both coolant sensors is I replaced the temp gauge sensor first thinking that was the ect, Then I read and found the engine sensor was the 2 wire lower sensor, The part numbers where different , I did change the 2 wire one with the new brass version.

PlasticCarsRock 12-15-2012 01:30 PM

Re: 95 sl2 wont start , just replaced timing chain
 
I would double and tripple check the plug wire routing, and definitely do a compression test. (Disable fuel and ignition for that test by pulling the PCM B fuse, and be sure to hold the throttle wide open and crank the same number of cycles for each cylinder.)

If you have fuel, ignition, and compression, it [I]should[/I] start. Having the timing off by one tooth would definitely cause it to run poorly, but it should still start (people have done it, before).

A bad ECTS or IAT (OR the connections for either) can cause the engine to run very poorly and/or stall repeatedly, but it will typically at least sputter a lot when you try to start it (still worth checking, though). The second coolant temperature sensor (single wire) doesn't matter for engine operation, so don't worry about that: it's part of the gauge circuit and nothing else, so you only need to worry about it if the gauge isn't working correctly, and those were brass from the factory, so they don't have the problem the plastic ECTSs had.

Just to double check: you timed it with the dots on both cam gears up, and the crank key up, and installed the timing chain such that a colored link lined up with both cam gear dots and the double colored links were exactly opposite the crank key, correct?

It doesn't really matter if the cams are perfectly straight up (you really don't need to do anything to hold them in place). As long as you can get the chain on, with the colored links lined up with the cam dots, and opposite the crank key, it will be correct.

robul 12-15-2012 01:48 PM

Re: 95 sl2 wont start , just replaced timing chain
 
[QUOTE=PlasticCarsRock;1936455]I would double and tripple check the plug wire routing, and definitely do a compression test. (Disable fuel and ignition for that test by pulling the PCM B fuse, and be sure to hold the throttle wide open and crank the same number of cycles for each cylinder.)

If you have fuel, ignition, and compression, it [I]should[/I] start. Having the timing off by one tooth would definitely cause it to run poorly, but it should still start (people have done it, before).

A bad ECTS or IAT (OR the connections for either) can cause the engine to run very poorly and/or stall repeatedly, but it will typically at least sputter a lot when you try to start it (still worth checking, though). The second coolant temperature sensor (single wire) doesn't matter for engine operation, so don't worry about that: it's part of the gauge circuit and nothing else, so you only need to worry about it if the gauge isn't working correctly, and those were brass from the factory, so they don't have the problem the plastic ECTSs had.

Just to double check: you timed it with the dots on both cam gears up, and the crank key up, and installed the timing chain such that a colored link lined up with both cam gear dots and the double colored links were exactly opposite the crank key, correct?

It doesn't really matter if the cams are perfectly straight up (you really don't need to do anything to hold them in place). As long as you can get the chain on, with the colored links lined up with the cam dots, and opposite the crank key, it will be correct.[/QUOTE]

Correct, The colored links directly on the dots, with the dots strait up , But The crank key was at the 12 oclock position as stated in the alldata,lined up with the mark on the block. Before I took the old chain off I turned the engine manually until the cam dots where strait up, and the #1 cyl was at TDC, after it lined up i didnt turn the cams or crank when I put the new chain on. Could it be 180 degrees out?

Lets say the chain is on perfectly and compression comes back good. What else is left? The fuel pressure regulator? weak coils? mabye the ICM?

PlasticCarsRock 12-15-2012 03:01 PM

Re: 95 sl2 wont start , just replaced timing chain
 
[QUOTE=robul;1936459]Correct, The colored links directly on the dots, with the dots strait up , But The crank key was at the 12 oclock position as stated in the alldata,lined up with the mark on the block. Before I took the old chain off I turned the engine manually until the cam dots where strait up, and the #1 cyl was at TDC, after it lined up i didnt turn the cams or crank when I put the new chain on. Could it be 180 degrees out? [/quote]

When I said straight up, I meant 12 o'clock (just like the cam gears). There is no such thing as 180 degrees off (unless it was actually at 6 o'clock...). It is true that the crank rotates twice for every single rotation of the cams, however, it doesn't matter which rotation it is in, because the same thing happens each time it turns. As long as the dots on the cam gears lined up, and the double marked links were directly opposite the crank key, it doesn't matter how anything was oriented. The procedure for lining everything up (crank at 3 o'clock, line up the cams, then turn crank counter-clockwise to 12 o'clock) is just to prevent the valves from hitting the pistons while you're installing and turning the cams (the 3'oclock position puts all pistons in the middle of their bores, so nothing will interfere). As long as all the colored marks lined up, that's all that matters; there is no possible way to have it wrong, if the links line up (assuming you bought the chain from a reputable company, and the links are marked correctly--I haven't heard of any that aren't, but stranger things have happened with foreign companies).

[QUOTE=robul;1936459]Lets say the chain is on perfectly and compression comes back good. What else is left? The fuel pressure regulator? weak coils? mabye the ICM?[/QUOTE]

It's unlikely for both coils to fail at once. It should still attempt to run, on two cylinders. Also, if the coils are good enough to consistently jump the gap between the towers, they should be able to jump the much smaller plug gaps, even under the higher cylinder pressure. A weak, but still firing, coil will typically show up as a misfire under load (much higher pressure), not a no-start condition.

If the fuel pressure is insanely high, I suppose it could flood immediately; it's worth checking, but it's unlikely. An ICM failure is possible, but unlikely. If you have spark and fuel, it's definitely doing something right... Assuming you don't have an oscilloscope to test it, your best bet is typically to get a "coil pack" from a junkyard, which typically includes both coils and the ICM (they're not common failure parts, so junkyard parts are usually pretty safe, and aftermarket parts are known for being unreliable and even defective right from the start).

Have you tried disconnecting the battery, or pulling the PCM B fuse, to reset the computer (quick and easy, and will rule out any incorrect adaptation caused by the timing chain problem)?

dbsanfte 12-15-2012 03:12 PM

Re: 95 sl2 wont start , just replaced timing chain
 
With an engine run on a failed timing chain, compression check should have been the first thing you did once the motor was back together. Everything else is/was wasted effort until you nail that down. A motor with bent valves will never start.

robul 12-15-2012 04:05 PM

Re: 95 sl2 wont start , just replaced timing chain
 
Thanks everyone so far with there input. Its starting to sound to me like it did possibly bend some valves, Will rent a compression checker tommorow and see what I can come up with. The reason I didnt jump to that assumption right away is the chain wasnt broken when I opened it up and it hadnt jumped any links, The tensioner was simply failing and losing tension every few rotations, Mabye the slop in the chain opened a valve at the wrong time and it knicked a piston.



[QUOTE=dbsanfte;1936466]With an engine run on a failed timing chain, compression check should have been the first thing you did once the motor was back together. Everything else is/was wasted effort until you nail that down. A motor with bent valves will never start.[/QUOTE]

robul 12-15-2012 04:07 PM

Re: 95 sl2 wont start , just replaced timing chain
 
[QUOTE=PlasticCarsRock;1936465]When I said straight up, I meant 12 o'clock (just like the cam gears). There is no such thing as 180 degrees off (unless it was actually at 6 o'clock...). It is true that the crank rotates twice for every single rotation of the cams, however, it doesn't matter which rotation it is in, because the same thing happens each time it turns. As long as the dots on the cam gears lined up, and the double marked links were directly opposite the crank key, it doesn't matter how anything was oriented. The procedure for lining everything up (crank at 3 o'clock, line up the cams, then turn crank counter-clockwise to 12 o'clock) is just to prevent the valves from hitting the pistons while you're installing and turning the cams (the 3'oclock position puts all pistons in the middle of their bores, so nothing will interfere). As long as all the colored marks lined up, that's all that matters; there is no possible way to have it wrong, if the links line up (assuming you bought the chain from a reputable company, and the links are marked correctly--I haven't heard of any that aren't, but stranger things have happened with foreign companies).



It's unlikely for both coils to fail at once. It should still attempt to run, on two cylinders. Also, if the coils are good enough to consistently jump the gap between the towers, they should be able to jump the much smaller plug gaps, even under the higher cylinder pressure. A weak, but still firing, coil will typically show up as a misfire under load (much higher pressure), not a no-start condition.

If the fuel pressure is insanely high, I suppose it could flood immediately; it's worth checking, but it's unlikely. An ICM failure is possible, but unlikely. If you have spark and fuel, it's definitely doing something right... Assuming you don't have an oscilloscope to test it, your best bet is typically to get a "coil pack" from a junkyard, which typically includes both coils and the ICM (they're not common failure parts, so junkyard parts are usually pretty safe, and aftermarket parts are known for being unreliable and even defective right from the start).

Have you tried disconnecting the battery, or pulling the PCM B fuse, to reset the computer (quick and easy, and will rule out any incorrect adaptation caused by the timing chain problem)?[/QUOTE]

Yes I have done that multiple times including leaving the battery unplugged for days at a time. Also pulled the pcm b fuse a number of times.

bobyjones 12-16-2012 12:09 AM

Re: 95 sl2 wont start , just replaced timing chain
 
oh fine get mad at the poor defenseless disabled guy

robul 12-17-2012 08:24 PM

Re: 95 sl2 wont start , just replaced timing chain
 
[QUOTE=bobyjones;1936618]oh fine get mad at the poor defenseless disabled guy[/QUOTE]

:) I was mad at the saturn not my buddy. :) And by disabled I mean he suffers with back pain, which I do as well, but I am more mobile and can bend over and work on a car.

Nevertheless, we are about to go and check the compression now that I have a second hand, I did solder the etc wires and heatshrink, I also noticed some of the vacuum lines specifically the one that leaves the throttle body, then drops down below intake, then goes to evap is in bad shape, it probably has a vacuum leak, do you think there is any chance a vacuum leak would cause the fpr to dump fuel and cause a flooded condition? will report back with compression numbers soon.


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