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SaturnIonsRock 05-06-2019 01:43 AM

Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
Hey so I have had my 2006 Ion 4 door
2.2 ecotec L4 5 speed without AC
I love this car! It ran so great for 3 years and it finally needing some repair. I ended up with the original issue wich was cranked but no start narrowed it down to a broke timing guide so I replaced it with a Cloyes timing kit and had no really much problem until I went to turn the key and it did the exact same thing. Found out i fudged up the placement of the exhaust cam sprocket. Replaced that and tried to start car again but this time it threw me a huge curve ball and turned into a no crank job start issue. Gauges and lights work. Although I get a message I've never had befor and its power steering. As well as my battery light and check engine light always stayed on when in the aux or accessory key position now they go out at the same time as my anti theft light. When I turn the key its basically a click. No clue why as I didnt go near the the starter or any starter related component other than the battery that i disconnected during the repairs. I put new spark plugs and serpentine belt on it as well. Fuel seems to be good as I get spray from the silver fuel line under the coil pack. Oh I also have two coil packs that I've tried. One was the park that was in it upon me buying it. Another is from a pick a part lot during troubleshooting the very orginal issue befor finding the timing issue. I'm quite lost as I'm not mechanically inclined at all. Quite the amateur for sure.

fdryer 05-06-2019 07:03 AM

Re: Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
1- How many miles on this car?

2- Did you perform timing chain replacement correctly or not? Incorrect timing can result in damage to valves, pistons and connecting rods. Any damage can result in erratic startup, erratic engine running, a jammed engine with a single grunt from the starter or the engine never starting up.

3- You can test the starter (leave ignition OFF) by jumping across the starter relay terminals with a wire or screwdriver bridging the large terminal with the battery positive cable and the small terminal with a single wire (purple?). This bypasses the starting circuit and sends battery power to the starter relay, closes heavy duty electrical contacts in the relay to send battery power to the starter motor. The starter should power up immediately to crank the engine. If you hear only a click or nothing, the battery may be discharged and not have reserve power, battery cables are corroded and/or loose. Lastly, the starter is worn out.

You may have several problems. Once you determine why the starter doesn't turn, the next problem may be one of several things; fuel, spark or electronics preventing both. Seeing fuel squirt from the fuel test valve only shows the fuel pump and pressure to the fuel system. This doesn't tell you if injectors are operating.

If you get the starter to turn over the engine, try starting fluid sprayed into the throttle body. Spraying starting fluid tests the ignition system (spark) and should get the engine to sputter or startup. There's more if you get to this point (engine turning over) and the engine still won't fire up.

SaturnIonsRock 05-06-2019 11:10 AM

Re: Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
Thanks for the reply,
The car has about 220 000kms. For the 3 years I owned it I was a pretty big stickler with keeping it maintained.

After replacing the timing chain I followed the cloyes video provided. It seems right. Only thing I did wrong was installed the exhaust cam sprocket in wrong... key ways were right but I didn't have it at the right spot(10 clock) then tried turning it over with the bad sprocket location... it at least cranked but didnt start. after buying a new tty bolt for it I put the sprocket in properly and and reset the lobes for the cams. Also I reset my tensioner as I had it activated. Reset it and reactivated it as well. Torqued it all to spec and now when I turn the key it wont even crank. So I figure the timing chain must be right tho as I can turn the harmonic balancer by hand quite effortlessly until about 3ish to 6ish then compression happens and it's a smidge harder to turn but still goes with no binding or any slack on it.

I have not tested starter as I'm having difficulty finding it. I am very new to taking cars apart. Nor have I found it to tap on it liek other videos I've watched.

I'd say the valves are fine due to the harmonic balancer spinning with ease. That's just my uneducated diagnosis tho.

The car ran absolutely beautiful up until this timing chain fail. Cranked over reliably in hot or cold weather. Not much sputter. I did notice the spark plugs had nothing left to them as it was hardly getting spark from only 2 of 4...before the issues. Hell I even replaced the woodruff key on the crank

fdryer 05-06-2019 11:31 AM

Re: Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
This isn't the right time to learn about 4-stroke engines but you're making headway. Every 4-stroke engine with cams or overhead valves works basically like this; for every 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation (two full revolutions) the camshafts turns one revolution. Top dead center is referenced against #1 cylinder with intake and exhaust valves closed with piston at top dead center. Timing marks on the crankshaft pulley and camshafts align with pip marks cast into the engine block or cylinder head. This is mechanical timing to sync valves opening and closing with crankshaft revolution. Whatever method you used to arrive at correct timing, spark plugs should be removed so compression doesn't occur. Verifying mechanical timing should be done manually by turning the crankshaft with a wrench or ratchet and socket with an extension pipe for greater leverage. At no time should the engine lock up. All the resistance felt while turning the engine over by hand are all the valve springs resisting compression. If valve springs weren't used, there'd be zero resistance in turning the engine. The key to correct timing is attention to details, lining up all timing marks before putting a chain back on then verifying timing by rotating the crank two full revolutions before timing marks line up again, without locking up anywhere.

If the engine turns over without spark plugs in place, the next step is to try the starter as suggested previously. Be sure the battery is fully charged to eliminate battery and battery cable issues. A compression test may be needed (borrowed from AutoZone) to check for possible damage to valves. Squirting some motor oil into each cylinder helps seal piston rings for better compression numbers and for checking for any damage if timing wasn't done correctly.

SaturnIonsRock 05-06-2019 11:43 AM

Re: Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
Lol I've been told that a few times now. Especially cause it's a 06 saturn. I must admit I love this car way to much and am willing to put the work in to fix it.

That's the part I think I'm having troubles with is making sure those lobes are in the correct spots. I followed a video on YouTube but it was for a 2.2 cavalier. Same engine but not same car.

I di remove the plugs when manually spinning the harmonic balancer crank with a ratchet and extension. Its moves nice and easy (without spark plugs in) minus a smidge of resistance like I noted before. Never jams seizes or binds up. I sat down there spinning it probably 60 times and those timing Mark's on the chain never aligned back up with the Mark's on the sprockets. I have a buddy who owns a mechanic shop tell me that those Mark's would hardly like back up after a hundred revolutions. The math makes sense too as if the link has approx 54 links then spinning it 720 degrees would only move about a smidge and half of the chain. So even 1440 degrees wouldnt align back up to the Mark's on both. He said as long as the cam intake and exhaust sprockets came back to 10 and 2 after 720 degrees or two revolutions I'm golden for timing. Wich mine do. They always come back to 10 and 2.
So that's when I put it back together again for the 2nd time only to get the darn no start. It at least cranked after the first attempt with the wrong sprocket location. Now that I fixed that it won't start.

SaturnIonsRock 05-06-2019 04:24 PM

Re: Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
Update:

Located a corroded positive wire coming of the main positive harness from the battery. It led right up to my ignition. Spliced a new quick connect harness on it and turned they key... it fired up for literally 1 second. Actually was running!!!!! Yay!! Then it died. I checked my timing again and noticed it somehow again my exhaust cam sprocket moved from the 10 o'clock position to about 11oclock.

Not sure if I'm doing the timing right as some people say the coloured links on the chain will hardly ever line back up with the markings engraved on the sprockets but the cam sprockets will always come back to 10 and 2 after 2 revolution or 720 degrees. Is that true? Or should they always stay in sync with eachother?

fdryer 05-06-2019 05:16 PM

Re: Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
Your '06 with 2.2L engine should be the same as '05 2.2L engines. Presuming all 2.2L engines are timed exactly the same, I have procedures for timing. Private message me car stats and I'll send files for timing procedures.

Basically, once timing is set, ignore the chain and ensure all timing marks are aligned every two crankshaft revolutions.

SaturnIonsRock 05-06-2019 05:54 PM

Re: Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
Okay what do you mean the stats? Sorry if that's dumb kg me but if youre looking for the car info as its 2006 Saturn ion L4 2.2 ecotec engine with a coil pack on top of the 4 spark plugs. It's got about 220 000 kms. It has no Air conditioning. It's a standard(5 speed) my clutch is always completely pressed in when starting. I've called gm and it had the ignition switch and power steering motor and column replaced under a recall. Sorry if that's not what you need.

fdryer 05-06-2019 06:06 PM

Re: Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
When members pm me, they assume I know which car they have. I cannot remember which member has an Ion, Vue or Lamborghini so I ask for year, model and engine. When I read mail, without self identifying which vehicle each member owns and needs info on, I don't have any info for reference. Including car stats simply makes it easier for me to correlate valuable info to the car and owner. Or I send the wrong info....

SaturnIonsRock 05-10-2019 05:00 PM

Re: Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
Update:

I have put it all back together again and had 3 people with me confirming timing chain Mark's and sprocket Mark's all lined up before bolting it all back up. Made sure I had it 100 percent but still it will not start. I am back to the cranking and no start so at least that's a positive thought. I just dont understand what I'm doing wrong. Brand new spark plugs, brand new serpentine belt, brand new gaskets, brand new timing chain kit cloyes brand. Included brand new sprockets for cams and crank, new guides, tensioner, and bolts. I have made sure battery is good and confirmed with 12.3 volts. Timing as far as I can see matches. I will tear it apart again and take pictures this time. I followed a service manual graciously provided to me by a fellow saturn fan! Even with all this I still cant seem to get the car to actually start. Just cranks and cranks .

fdryer 05-10-2019 06:18 PM

Re: Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
So, an '06 Ion, 220k kms/137k miles, new timing chain verified but still crank/no start issue. Don't take anything apart related to timing. Move on with the crank no start problem.

1-Did you check compression? This can help determine if valves are worn or piston rings not sealing. A dry test followed by a wet test (squirt some motor oil into each cylinder) can determine if rings are worn or valves are burned.

2-Removing spark plugs after several repeated starting attempts will tell you whether or not the EFI system is working. Every startup will have fuel injected so several starting attempts should show plugs wet with fuel. Yes or no?

3-A spark test can be performed with plugs out. With the ignition coil pack, plugs connected and plug bases wired to engine block (ground), wiring connected to the ignition control module, have someone startup while you observe for spark on all plugs.

SaturnIonsRock 05-10-2019 06:43 PM

Re: Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
1. Havent checked compression as I'm not sure how. Sorry for that I'm a newbie to fixing cars.

2. Yes each spark plug has the smell of fuel and seem to be fine.

3. I'm sorry that I dont understand this step.
I have a friend who is good with electrical and hes putting a ground under the hood then checking my coil pack with a light on the ene of what looks like a screw driver that lights up when it's got power by swapping it from my under hood fuse panel to the pins in my coil pack pins. He calls it a ignition control module. He connected a test light to pins on that ICM and it wont light on the negative and neutrals when cranking the engine.

SaturnIonsRock 05-10-2019 06:58 PM

Re: Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
1 Attachment(s)
Pic of the ICM ignition control module

fdryer 05-10-2019 08:14 PM

Re: Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
No one's an expert here and we all learn something at different speed and time. No apology necessary.

A compression test is the same as checking tire pressures except connecting a higher rated pressure gauge with hose and spark plug threaded adapter to screw into a cylinder to measure cylinder pressures by running the starter. The engine must turnover two full revolutions for one cylinder compression cycle. With all plugs removed, the battery doesn't strain. Ten full engine cycles is usually recommended to record compression values. Compression values around 185 psi or the highest value seen that doesn't change after several engine revolutions. Record each cylinder compression value. A battery charger may be needed to maintain a full charge. Plugs left off places less strain on the battery - the engine turns over faster without compressing any air or fuel in cylinders. If performing a compression test, remove either the fuel pump fuse or pump relay to stop fuel from being injected into cylinders, Replace when done.

Fuel on spark plugs is a good sign! It means the ecm is working, fuel pump is pressurizing, fuel injectors are operating from the ecm. A spark test can help determine if the ignition system is faulty. Did you check all fuses, ignition fuse? Its a 10 amp fuse in the engine fuse box. If a fuse cover exists, labeling under the cover should show where the ignition system fuse is located. Be sure the 10 amp fuse isn't blown.

A spark test is simple. Remove the ignition coil pack (with ignition control module piggy backed onto it) from the engine to lay off to the side. Connect all spark plugs onto the coil pack, temporarily wire all plug bases to the engine block metal bracket to serve as ground connection to the spark plugs. With the coil pack and ignition control module connected to the wiring harnesses, you can observe spark on all plugs as someone turns the ignition key to START. You should be observing the spark plugs out in the open as spark should be seen on each plug as the engine turns over.

SaturnIonsRock 05-16-2019 04:33 PM

Re: Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
Final update!!

I confess I didnt check compression as I could afford the proper gauge. So I moved onto things I could afford at that time. Grabbed a cheap ICM(ignition control module) and swapped them. It fired for another second wich made no sense to me. Watched a ton of videos and found one saying to hold the gas pedal down while turning it over. Voila!!! It turned over and stayed running as long as I held the gas pedal. I let it go and it died again. Waited a few minutes and tried again but this time I revved up the engine a few times then slowly let the gas pedal release and it sputtered then evened out and idled great!!!! It starts on it's own and stays running now with no press of the gas while starting. My car is back to normal function!! So basically replaced timing chain made sure sprockets for exhaust and intake lined up at 10 and 2, made sure valve 1 was at tdc, confirmed by rotating 720 degrees and exhaust sprocket and intake sprocket stayed 10 and 2 even tho the chain Mark's wont be in line with sprockets any more it was in time. Replaced spark plugs, serpentine belt, valve cover gaskets, water port gaskets, and the ignition control module. It seemed like it was either flooded or vapour locked from all the cranks. All is good now after that.

I really appreciate all the help from Fdryer on this you helped so much! You sir are wonderful at what you do and are definitely doing a great deed. Thanks and appreciate all the info I learned a lot from it! Maybe I'll be able to pass knowledge on one day like you are doing.

fdryer 05-16-2019 05:32 PM

Re: Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
As you can tell, I'm not an expert on EFI systems since I failed to mention holding pedal to floor........ when suspecting a flooded engine. A flooded engine can occur after several starting attempts without the engine firing up if enough fuel is injected during cold engine starting, drowning spark (shorts) as fuel continues being injected. Two ways to address flooding; hold pedal down for wide open throttle, telling the engine computer to shut off injectors during starting or removing spark plugs and cranking the engine to blow out excess fuel in each cylinder. With plugs removed and fuel spitting out cylinders, this indicates a flooded engine. Blowing out excess fuel then reinstalling dried plugs should result in starting up immediately. Holding pedal to the floor allows more air to dry out cylinders and plugs until spark occurs with sputtering startup.

Flooding occurs in rare circumstances and usually with cold engines since the EFI system knows from temperature sensors. A rich fuel mixture is always given to cold engines where flooding can occur if abnormal conditions occur; repeated starting, faulty/internment spark, very low compression, incorrect timing after timing repairs, etc. A key to remember is all EFI systems are recognized for nearly instant starting. When this doesn't occur after several starts, a flooded engine is likely unless any empty tank, blown fuel pump fuse, faulty pump relay, leaking fuel line or something interfering with fuel pressure and/or flow.

Hopefully this is the only time for a flooded engine and never occurs again.

SaturnIonsRock 06-29-2019 02:06 PM

Re: Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
Update:
After putting it back on the road for approximately a month I am having issues with power steering failure when in bumper to bumper traffic. Basically the car gets super hot(I assume) even tho the engine temp gauge shows within normal Operating limits. Just started doing this yesterday. I noticed my airbag light was acting like a strobe light on/off/on/off then I lost power steering any time I am at 2000 rpms to 3000 rpms. Would this be the ECM coil pack on top beside my spark plugs?

fdryer 06-30-2019 12:56 AM

Re: Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
The engine isn't overheating if the temperature gauge says so unless the gauge or sensor failed. WIth the car running fine until this new problem, let's move on with symptoms.

Losing power steering may be one of two issues - the power steering unit or electrical power. Presuming your Ion uses electric power steering, the steering motor, electronics or wiring are possibilities. With electric pwr steering, the electrical system providing power is another possibility to consider. One hint may be the intermittent airbag light. If airbags aren't the problem, the a/b indicator may be "the canary int the mine" indicator of electrical power issues.

Main power; battery, battery cables, their connections to starter (positive), chassis and engine block (grounds), alternator and drive belt system. The flashing a/b light may be trying to tell you somethings not right with electrical power.

SaturnIonsRock 06-30-2019 04:34 PM

Re: Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
Okay, I would feel confident saying my gauges are fine.

Yes I have electronic power steering as I seen the motor under the steering column as i was under the dash looking for the previously mentioned no start issue or cause. It was replaced 2014 due to GM recall and they replaced the steering column and motor if memory serves right.

My battery tests good and I've rechecked the lines leading off it. All seem in good shape.

The grounds all look in decent condition for the age of the car.

I checked a saturn redline forum and many mentioned cleaning the grease out and reapplying new grease to solve it only to see the problem come back a few months later.

fdryer 06-30-2019 08:23 PM

Re: Replaced timing chain now it's a no crank no start
 
What's operating voltages? Standby battery voltage should be 12.5v. Engine idling, 14-15v. Electric power steering requires power. Check power cables to the power steering unit and ground connections.

What condition is the drive belt? Is it loose or tight? A loose drive belt may allow the belt to slip with little power transfer to driven pulleys (ac compressor, water pump, alternator). If the alternator pulley slips, electrical power will shift between battery and alternator. Battery power is only needed for starting with the alternator supplying all power to the car while recharging the battery. The alternator is relied for all electrical power.


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