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-   -   Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong. (http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232769)

5littlejoe5 10-12-2017 06:28 PM

Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
this transmission is guaranteed, and I'm trying to decide whether I'll have to take it out and send it back, or fix it. It starts and runs smoothly shifting without any roughness right up into overdrive. But then within a mile or two it seems to go into neutral or free wheeling, and (usually) won't go back into gear unless I stop (or at least slow way down). Then I can continue to drive it, but it will not shift up. It seems stuck in first, or second (4000 RPM at 30 MPH). If I let it set for 10 minutes it will go through the same sequence - starting out and shifting just fine, but then freewheeling, and locking me back to that 30 MPH-4000 RPM limit.

No strange noises, and the shifts are smooth when it does shift. New transmission fluid, and spin-on filter.

I thought that the shift solenoids might be at fault. Checked them, and all five seemed low resistance (less than 4 ohms). I've been struggling with this for awhile, so I had a set of them that checked out at about 5.1 ohms, and swapped them out, but it didn't seem to change anything.

Looks like it takes a major tear-down to change the internal filter. could that be the problem? or is their likely to be a better or simpler solution? It's a cute car with new tires, and upholstery But I'm spending way to much time and money on it.

toggenburg 10-12-2017 08:22 PM

Re: Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
Just out of curiosity, did you only use Dexron III compatible transmission fluid or something else in it?
Our cars cannot and must not use Dex IV or VI....ONLY Dex III.

Also, was the trans you got, from a SOHC or a DOHC saturn?

5littlejoe5 10-14-2017 06:04 AM

Re: Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
I don't know. I had the work done, and don't know which ATF was used. Just that it is new, and the filter is new. I was not aware of the requirement for Dexron III. I'll try to find out. Thanks for the suggestion.

The car (and the transmission) are SOHC

fetchitfido 10-14-2017 08:13 AM

Re: Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
1 Attachment(s)
Are you sure it's a MP6 transmission?
Are you sure it's a '98ish-'02 MP6?
ID guide attached (same location & scheme for the 5spds they're just MP2/MP3 for SOHC/DOHC).

I had a '00 Subaru Legacy Outback that needed a rear subframe...the idiot NC yard I picked sent me not one but TWO front sub-frames before telling me I didn't know what I was talking about. Oh well, the fronts rust out nearly as quickly as the rear's up here...got my money back and then some :D

5littlejoe5 10-15-2017 03:26 PM

Re: Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
[QUOTE=toggenburg;2256830]Just out of curiosity, did you only use Dexron III compatible transmission fluid or something else in it?
Our cars cannot and must not use Dex IV or VI....ONLY Dex III.

Also, was the trans you got, from a SOHC or a DOHC saturn?[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="black"][B][I][U]Yes The ATF that was used was Dexron III compatible according to the label on the container. And I was told that it would fit a 2001 or 2002 Saturn SL1. It bolted right in place, and all the connectors came out right. Mine is a SL1 year 2000, but my understanding from various sources is that it should be the same from '98-02 [/U][/I] [/B][/COLOR]

5littlejoe5 10-15-2017 03:37 PM

Re: Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
[QUOTE=fetchitfido;2256928]Are you sure it's a MP6 transmission?
Are you sure it's a '98ish-'02 MP6?
ID guide attached (same location & scheme for the 5spds they're just MP2/MP3 for SOHC/DOHC).

[COLOR="black"][B]I don't find any similar number in that location, but the transmission fit's perfectly, and all of the connectors come out right. Mine is a 2000 SL1 SOHC , and the salvage yard where I got it said that it was compatible with 2001 ND 2002. Common opinion is that it should fit between 2008, and 2002. Aren't the MP2 and MP3 transmissions standard shift? I might be glad to chang it over to standard, but it looks like that would be a rather major undertaking.[/B][/COLOR][I][U][/U][/I]

billr 10-15-2017 05:22 PM

Re: Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
They will all "fit perfectly", they just won't [I]shift[/I] perfectly if not the correct type. Look again for the ID number. They are hard to find or read, but it is a waste of everybody's time to try resolving this, your included, if it is the wrong trans. That characters in that number are a "dot matrix", will look like tiny pin-pricks in the metal. Again, very hard to see.

Chazberry 10-16-2017 09:16 AM

Re: Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
This is what they look like . . .
[url]http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27411&d=1329425442[/url]

5littlejoe5 10-16-2017 04:01 PM

Re: Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
[QUOTE=billr;2257055]They will all "fit perfectly", they just won't [I]shift[/I] perfectly if not the correct type. Look again for the ID number. They are hard to find or read, but it is a waste of everybody's time to try resolving this, your included, if it is the wrong trans. That characters in that number are a "dot matrix", will look like tiny pin-pricks in the metal. Again, very hard to see.[/QUOTE]

[B][I][U]I tried again.Get it clean enough, with a bright light, and my best glasses on, and it's still hard to read. But Yes it is an MP6 transmission. Thanks.

So then, if it's an MP6 and still doesn't shift right - What? Is there some sort of additive that might help? Some adjuster in the linkage? What else is there to look at?[/U][/I][/B]

billr 10-16-2017 07:36 PM

Re: Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
Check resistance of the five solenoid coils. Can you read live-data? That will a save a lot of guessing/testing of things like the range switch, linkage adjustment, VSS, turbine speed sensor, trans fluid temp sensor. You have [I]already[/I] check the three fuses for the trans, of course...

Chazberry 10-16-2017 08:24 PM

Re: Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
And you're not getting any trouble codes? Btw - you never said what original symptoms you had that prompted the tranny replacement.

PS - if you are actually stuck in 2nd gear, that could mean your 2nd gear Solenoid is not getting energized. And if this is an intermittent condition, it may mean a flaky connection in the wiring or loose pins at the VB Harness connector.

billr 10-16-2017 08:49 PM

Re: Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
Okay, I see the OP has already checked and swapped the solenoids; but how about the fuses? Yeah, a bad fuse should set a code, but it is easy to check those. Live-data is rapidly becoming the next logical (and easiest) step.

5littlejoe5 10-16-2017 09:18 PM

Re: Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
[QUOTE=billr;2257153]Check resistance of the five solenoid coils. Can you read live-data? That will a save a lot of guessing/testing of things like the range switch, linkage adjustment, VSS, turbine speed sensor, trans fluid temp sensor. You have [I]already[/I] check the three fuses for the trans, of course...[/QUOTE]

[B][I]I did check and change the five Solenoid coils. The ones that were installed showed less than 4 ohms each. The ones that I put in showed 5.1 ohms +/-1 ohm.

I just purchased a OBDII diagnostic tester that is supposed to work with an app on my telephone. I've never used one, so I still have to read the directions, and make it work. But, yes, I should be able to read live data. I made need help interpreting it.

I have no owners manual, but just downloaded a shop manual, which I'll have to study. "1997-2002_Saturn_S-series_Repair_Manual.rar".I hope it will have a chart that will show me which fuses to check. Or I'll just check them all.

I'm likely to be at least a few days on this. Thanks for the info.[/I][/B]

OldNuc 10-16-2017 10:01 PM

Re: Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
In the UHJB (eng. compartment fuse box) they are marked as TRS-1 TRS-2 TRS-3 and the road map is in the cover.

Has it been established that this is the correct trans for this PCM/engine?

The marking on these transmissions are very difficult to find even when you know where to look and what to look for.

The JY is incorrect with their info as the OP reported it.

5littlejoe5 11-09-2017 08:10 PM

Re: Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
[B][I]Sorry I dropped out her for awhile - hard disk failure, and I've really gotten bogged down.
I found and checked the three fuses you mentioned, and they are fine.[/I][/B]

[QUOTE=OldNuc;2257171]In the UHJB (eng. compartment fuse box) they are marked as TRS-1 TRS-2 TRS-3 and the road map is in the cover.

Has it been established that this is the correct trans for this PCM/engine?

[B][I]I had ordered a transmission from Michigan (this is the one) as from a 2001 or 2002 car, but when I called them about it They tell me that I ordered (and got) a transmission from a 1991. But it appears to be exactly the same as the one we took out - even to the shift position sender/transmission safety switch, and the valve body. Is there a certain way to tell w hat year model the transmission is? I repaired the Oxygen sensor problem, and now [U]Sometimes[/U] it does shift up exactly as it should, and go for miles without a problem. Other times it wont run right for more than a mile, and then wants to be driven in low gear only. [/I][/B]

The marking on these transmissions are very difficult to find even when you know where to look and what to look for.

The JY is incorrect with their info as the OP reported it.[/QUOTE]

OldNuc 11-09-2017 10:20 PM

Re: Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
Yes, a 91 is way different. How to find out what is exactly in there.
How to check the trans model number. There is no tag. Look right between the top 2 transmission to engine mounting bolts. Clean the area with a rag and brake cleaner, do not use any abrasive! Take a large tip sharpie pen and rub it in the center of the case between those bolts. You will see some 1/2" high dot matrix letters and numbers. They are quite hard to read. You are interested in the first 4 positions.The 1st position is the year code and may be either a number or letter, the 2nd position is the letter M, the 3rd position is the letter P, and the 4th position is a number - either 2 or 3 for manual or 6 or 7 for automatic. You must have the correct MP number for the application or it will not work in the car. These letters/numbers are centered between those top 2 mounting bolts and they are really are there.

Pictures.
Use these for trans. number ID
[url]http://i.imgur.com/dwb6a.jpg[/url]
[url]http://i.imgur.com/vEmqC.jpg[/url]
[url]http://i.imgur.com/vEmqC.jpg[/url]
[url]http://i.imgur.com/vEmqC.jpg[/url]

Year codes.
M--1991
N--1992
P--1993
R--1994
S--1995
T--1996
V--1997
W--1998
X--1999
Y--2000
1--2001
2--2002

Nekomimi 11-10-2017 01:16 PM

Re: Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
Are you not getting "Gear Ratio Incorrect" codes?
I had to fight a salvage place about the computer database saying "all years are compatible" too. What probably happened is they just sent you that one from the 91 because it's the "same" as a 2001 and "you're a customer who doesn't know what they're talking about. Since the computer knows better"

Different racing has a compatible Ratio to Model years chart.

OldNuc 11-10-2017 02:37 PM

Re: Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
Generally any type 1 VB trans will only work to replace a Type 1 VB trans as the case is different along with the VB and the TCU. The change is in the 93 model year and is VIN dependent. Beyond that most but not all from 94-02 either economy or performance auto trans will swap. So a 91 is not going to work correctly. Do not depend on the 01 TCU to be intelligent enough to set any useful codes in these conditions. The OP must actually determine exactly what trans is in the car. As has been pointed out multiple times the JY is usually completely clueless.

alordofchaos 11-13-2017 12:33 PM

Re: Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
[QUOTE=5littlejoe5;2257037][COLOR="black"][B][I][U]Yes The ATF that was used was Dexron III compatible according to the label on the container. [/U][/I] [/B][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="3"]I don't think this is related to your issue, but Dexron VI will say "Dexron III compatible" on the front . . . and in teeny, tiny print of the back, "[I]except Saturn automatic transmissions[/I]" or something like that[/SIZE]

5littlejoe5 11-14-2017 12:43 PM

Re: Used transmission installed, but shift pattern is wrong.
 
[QUOTE=OldNuc;2258849]Yes, a 91 is way different. How to find out what is exactly in there.
How to check the trans model number. There is no tag. Look right between the top 2 transmission to engine mounting bolts. Clean the area with a rag and brake cleaner, do not use any abrasive! Take a large tip sharpie pen and rub it in the center of the case between those bolts. You will see some 1/2" high dot matrix letters and numbers. They are quite hard to read. You are interested in the first 4 positions.The 1st position is the year code and may be either a number or letter, the 2nd position is the letter M, the 3rd position is the letter P, and the 4th position is a number - either 2 or 3 for manual or 6 or 7 for automatic. You must have the correct MP number for the application or it will not work in the car. These letters/numbers are centered between those top 2 mounting bolts and they are really are there.
]
[B][I]The transmission that is in the car (the one I bought from Michigan) has the first four digits: 2MP6, and once I got it clean, those digits are quite clear.
[/I][/B]

Year codes.
M--1991
N--1992
P--1993
R--1994
S--1995
T--1996
V--1997
W--1998
X--1999
Y--2000
1--2001
2--2002[/QUOTE]

[B][I]It does appear then, that it is a 2002 transmission.
[/I][/B]


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