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johnpatrick 11-17-2019 06:45 PM

question about daytime running lights
 
i just had my 99 sl1's alternator and battery replaced. i've now discovered (after noticing my service wrench light come on, but only when the headlights are off) that the daytime running lights have stopped working.

thing is, both high beams still work, and I've read here that if the drl relay died, only one of the high beams should function.

besides putting black tape over the wrench light, any ideas on how to fix the problem?

fdryer 11-26-2019 03:25 PM

Re: question about daytime running lights
 
1 Attachment(s)
Did you check for blown fuses? (several shown in the diagram) Is the DRL light on when driving during the day?

Here's a link to wiring diagrams and pdf: [url]http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160679[/url], post#5. Below is the same wiring diagram stitched together into one drawing.

The wrench light indicates error codes unrelated to emissions. Better readers capable of reading/displaying wrench codes are a step up from generic readers. According to the diagram, the instrument panel has the chip to determine choosing DRLs or not, turning on the DRL light when in drl mode.

johnpatrick 11-26-2019 03:41 PM

Re: question about daytime running lights
 
Thanks for your reply! I've looked at the wiring diagram - have to admit those are well beyond me...

Fuses all seem to be okay. The drl light is NOT on when driving during the day. I believe it doesn't light when starting the car either. Is it possible that if the drl instrument cluster light went out, THAT would cause the drls to not come on?

Whatever is supposed to tell the high beam bulbs to operate at 50% power (and become drls) isn't working anymore. And again, this is after a couple of jump starts and installation of a new battery and alternator, so I don't know if that messed something up.

Any ideas about what I can check?

fdryer 11-26-2019 04:04 PM

Re: question about daytime running lights
 
If I'm not mistaken, the parking brake switch disables DRLs when its pulled up (brake light on), DRLs enabled and on with park brake released. Is this how you remember the sequence to have DRLs in daytime driving? The park brake light is another indicator to assess where DRLs failed.

onlinebiker 11-26-2019 06:16 PM

Re: question about daytime running lights
 
[QUOTE=fdryer;2310730]If I'm not mistaken, the parking brake switch disables DRLs when its pulled up (brake light on), DRLs enabled and on with park brake released. Is this how you remember the sequence to have DRLs in daytime driving? The park brake light is another indicator to assess where DRLs failed.[/QUOTE]

Yup...you can dip the DRL by pulling up the parking brake handle up just enough to get a brakevwarning light..

TomM96 11-27-2019 11:07 AM

Re: question about daytime running lights
 
My car is 2000 SW...

>> If the IgSW is Not in ON/'run' position, the DRL is off. DRL works when engine not running (or when engine runs). DRL off when IgSW is in ACC or off.

>> It (DRL) responds to park brake lever by extinguishing when brake is ON,
as indicated by IP indicator. Brake Off = DRL On.

>> It (DRL) responds to gearshift. My car is AT {TAAT} :
When shift selector in 'Park', DRL is OFF. When shift into R, N or D, DRL is ON.
My car 'sat' (driven rarely) 2 years on a used car lot... this messes with the electrics. When i move the shift selector, the DRL indicator varies in brightness. For some months i thought the DRLs were not working, but they might have been (they work consistently now).


>> It (DRL) responds to position of Lighting SW on the steering column:
DRL extinguishes when headlamps illuminate. If the 'bright' headlight is selected, the DRL extinguishes when the (blue) IP indicator illuminates. Thus, DRL is ON when lights are Off, and when parking lamps are on, but not with headlights on.
.....
If DRL not working, check all fuses involved ... remove & reseat each fuse.
Then, remove & reseat the DRL relay shown in schematic posted by FDryer.

Dunno where you drive... but if in rust-prone area, the lighting grounds are a possible source of intermittency.

My understanding is the DRL relay connects the two highbeam filaments in Series for dim daylight operations; else the headlamps are driven by lighting SW in Parallel (at full brightness).

good hunting...

BV22 11-27-2019 11:27 AM

Re: question about daytime running lights
 
DRL's worked normally on my 02 SC1 long after the green indicator bulb on the instrument panel burned out.

johnpatrick 11-27-2019 11:31 AM

Re: question about daytime running lights
 
Thanks for your responses.
I think I wasn’t clear enough previously. My daytime running lights have stopped working. The green indicator light on the instrument cluster, which indicates drls are on, isn’t illuminating. I assumed the green light not coming on was a result of the drls not working.
Is it possible that the reverse is true - the drls stopped working because the green indicator light bulb in the gauge cluster had died?
That sounds silly, I know, but I’ve already swapped out the drl relay, fuses are fine, and parking brake is not on.

BV22 11-27-2019 11:46 AM

Re: question about daytime running lights
 
What I was trying to say is that in my case, the failure of the indicator bulb did not affect the operation of my DRL's. They worked correctly for years after the indicator burned out.

johnpatrick 11-27-2019 12:14 PM

Re: question about daytime running lights
 
Thanks BV22! Your first message was completely clear and answered my question. I just didn’t see it until after I finished typing my post of a few minutes later!

TomM96 11-30-2019 01:08 AM

Re: question about daytime running lights
 
So, if the park brake indicator is functional, And if the headlamps (both brights and regular) work... maybe the DRL Relay, or the transmission selector SW are out of service.

If search google for the alpha-numeric sequence stenciled on the case of the relay, good chance somebody pulled some from a junkyard, and will sell …
RochAuto may list them. At 20 years old, buying new might be justified.

You might first try removing the cover from the DRL relay base plate --
most relays can be uncovered by lifting the bottom edge of the cover...
which slides off tabs , lifts off.
Then can examine contact points; manually operate the movable contact, file off debris accumulated on points; examine the naked points as Assistant manipulates the IgSW, brake lever, light SW, and PRINDL NSS , etc.

johnpatrick 12-01-2019 01:24 PM

Re: question about daytime running lights
 
TomM96, I've tried 6 different DRL relays (pulled from junkyard) and none of them corrected the problem. Seems unlikely that they would all be bad.

Could you elaborate on your thought that the transmission selector SW might be out of service?

fdryer 12-01-2019 02:20 PM

Re: question about daytime running lights
 
2 Attachment(s)
Presuming the Park/Brake switch works (pull up and the red brake light turns on, release the p/b lever and the brake light turns off), this switch sends a signal to the IPC. In the wiring diagram, the p/b ground signal is sent to the DRL Logic Board where it determines when to turn on DRLs (high beams at half power from series wiring). I do not know from info provided where the problem lies yet. One way to see which way to go might be bypassing the DRL relay with a small wire jumper. The headlight switch should be in the OFF or AUTO position.

The standard 87A relay comes in two configurations, four or five pin types. It doesn't matter which one is used in DRL mode but important not to mix them. If you have the original one, examine it for labeling, often printed on one side of the cover or embossed on the case bottom. The four pins of importance on all 87A relays are 30+87 and 85+86. Technically, 85+86 are the command side where the pcm commands the relay to power up. 30+87 are the switch contacts, open when relay isn't energized, closed when relay is energized to send 12v to blower motor, fuel pump, rear defrost grid, drl circuit, etc. To test the DRL circuit and turn on high beams in drl mode, remove the relay and insert a small wire jumper across relay socket terminals 30 and 87 to send 12v to the high beams in series. Whether in drl mode or not, halogen lamps do not decrease in brightness due to halogen lamp design never dimming as the filament ages. The properties of halogen lamps replaced older filament lamps as the last improvement in headlights before HID and LED lighting became the next evolution in lighting. It's difficult if not impossible for anyone to tell the difference between any headlights using halogen bulbs running in series or parallel wired configurations. GM took advantage of this property to introduce and use an inexpensive method of DRLs with halogen lamps. Wiring circuitry is made a little more difficult but not for anyone familiar with basic electricity.

If you are able to insert a small wire jumper across the DRL relay socket terminals 30 and 87, this may manually turn on high beams in drl mode. If not then this may point to the instrument panel where the DRL circuitry governs when DRLs are needed.

TomM96 12-04-2019 09:27 PM

Re: question about daytime running lights
 
> thought that the transmission selector SW might be out of service?

Just the fact that the DRL is OFF when Transmission selector SW is in Park, but can be ON when PRNDL/NSS is in Reverse, Neutral or Drive/Low....

> The Headlamp SW, Park Brake SW, Trans Selector, and IgSW are all involved.
I have OEM manuals for 97&2000-2002, but not for '99 !

Any of the switches might disable, as could a bad ground connection, or wire harness issue.
………...……...….
FDryer's diagram indicates that a chip on the Instrument Panel Cluster does some decisionmaking, dependent on switch positions.....

Some pick-n-pull wrecking yards sell Instrument Clusters for $25.
I bought a useless one for $100- once!
……...…...…...……………...…………...............……..

The only wire harness issue I had in my '97 (drove fr 150-> 230kMI) was trying to run my laptop from the cigar lighter; And I suspect the TAAT Selector SW was responsible for poor operation of the Starter motor's solenoid.

fjmg 12-13-2019 12:42 AM

Re: question about daytime running lights
 
Is not one of the functions of a service wrench light to let you know the service engine soon light bulb is burnt out?

johnpatrick 12-14-2019 01:05 PM

Re: question about daytime running lights
 
Sorry I've been away for a while, but I just now jumped the switch contacts (30 and 87) as fdryer said. Lo and behold, the drls turned on!!!

I'm so glad because I think that means I won't have to pull and replace the instrument cluster (opened that all up once to replace a bulb and really don't want to do that ever again)!

But what exactly does the 30+87 test tell us? Where do you now think the problem is?

fdryer 12-14-2019 01:54 PM

Re: question about daytime running lights
 
As previously mentioned, relay contacts 30 & 87 sends 12v to the drl series wired circuit to turn on headlights. The jumper inserted into socket terminals 30 and 87 verified the drl circuit. What's missing is either the command (ground) signal from the drl logic circuit in the i/p or 12v on the drl relay, terminal socket pins 85 and 86. One of these two terminals should have 12v on it with ignition on. Two fuses are inline, one before the ignition switch - IGN3@30 amps and one after the ignition switch when its turned on - IGN3@10 amps. Check both fuses.

With ignition on, check for 12v on either 85 or 86. This is the easiest to check. Switched ground from the drl logic board is a little more difficult to test for.

I'm using the wiring diagram from post #2 for reference.

johnpatrick 12-14-2019 04:15 PM

Re: question about daytime running lights
 
DRLs are working!!!

fdryer, it was the IGN3@10 amps fuse that was broken. I missed that earlier when i was checking fuses. I never would have caught that without your suggestion. You're the best!

Thank you all for your help! What a great DIY information source this site is!

fdryer 12-14-2019 05:34 PM

Re: question about daytime running lights
 
Whew, I was wondering if this would get complicated but finding a blown fuse is always better than poking around wiring harnesses. :yes:


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