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gm7 06-08-2007 10:48 AM

Rotella T Engine Oil....
 
Hi Everybody,
Its been a while since I posted. My '01 SC2 5 spd has continued to run beautifully on Mobil 1...now with still only 48K on the clock...quiet and with great driveability. Have been considering changing to Rotella T which is what I run in my V twin motorcycle with good success. Those may know that Rotella T is approved for gas and diesel engines and is a Group III syn oil with great wear inhibitors. Please let me know if others have run Rotella T 5-40W with good success and curious what your oil consumption has been with it? Cost delta for 4 qts would only be $7-8 or so between Mobil 1 and Rotella T since only a 4 qt sump. My engine honestly only uses a modest amount of oil with Mobil 1 and I may be penny foolish to change.
Thanks for any experiences.
George

97coupe 06-08-2007 01:37 PM

Re: Rotella T Engine Oil....
 
Unless your engine is using oil I would advise against it. The 40 weight rating at higher temps will increase the power required to shear it and reduce MPG a bit and sometimes it can even increase oil consumption in a tight engine because it is harder to scrap the thicker film off of the walls of cylinder. If you want to use SYN oil in it, stay with 5w30 in summer unless you live in desert southwest where temps can get to 100 and beyond in summer.

gm7 06-08-2007 02:04 PM

Re: Rotella T Engine Oil....
 
[QUOTE=97coupe;1072379]Unless your engine is using oil I would advise against it. The 40 weight rating at higher temps will increase the power required to shear it and reduce MPG a bit and sometimes it can even increase oil consumption in a tight engine because it is harder to scrap the thicker film off of the walls of cylinder. If you want to use SYN oil in it, stay with 5w30 in summer unless you live in desert southwest where temps can get to 100 and beyond in summer.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like good advice. Figured the extra 10 points in viscosity in warm weather maybe just noise but what you write makes sense. It runs so good on Mobil 1 I likely shouldn't switch. Price per quart becomes a bigger factor in large sump cars and bikes. My motorycle takes 6 qts for example...or half again that of the SC2...lol.
Thanks,
George

97coupe 06-08-2007 04:28 PM

Re: Rotella T Engine Oil....
 
[QUOTE=gm7;1072398]Sounds like good advice. Figured the extra 10 points in viscosity in warm weather maybe just noise but what you write makes sense. It runs so good on Mobil 1 I likely shouldn't switch. Price per quart becomes a bigger factor in large sump cars and bikes. My motorycle takes 6 qts for example...or half again that of the SC2...lol.
Thanks,
George[/QUOTE]

You know for what it is worth, I have been "testing" Walmart SYN oil in my wifes car for about 4 years now (not a Saturn) and it has worked out well but I still change it too regularly but it is about 14 bucks a 5 quart jug or about 1/2 the price of mobile one here. I am basically a conventional oil guy here but have run some extended tests on cars over last 25 years that where bought new and started on both kinds of oil after break in. I still maintain after all of this that frequent changes is more important that whether it is SYN or dino because I have yet to wear a engine out either way that I started new with. .

gm7 06-09-2007 04:36 AM

Re: Rotella T Engine Oil....
 
[QUOTE=97coupe;1072459]You know for what it is worth, I have been "testing" Walmart SYN oil in my wifes car for about 4 years now (not a Saturn) and it has worked out well but I still change it too regularly but it is about 14 bucks a 5 quart jug or about 1/2 the price of mobile one here. I am basically a conventional oil guy here but have run some extended tests on cars over last 25 years that where bought new and started on both kinds of oil after break in. I still maintain after all of this that frequent changes is more important that whether it is SYN or dino because I have yet to wear a engine out either way that I started new with. .[/QUOTE]

Yup, another good point. The engine oils of today are very good across the board. You can take a Group III dino base oil which is marketed under a Synthetic name even though 90 percent mineral oil and it can be formulated more slippery then a PAO based Group IV bonefide Synthetic oil just by virtue of its additive package which at the end of the day trumps the base oil for wear and lubricity. The benefit of PAO based oils aside from anti-Newtonian temp viscosity relationship is resistance to viscosity/sheer breakdown over time. This only matters if you extend your oil changes which I do a bit in my Saturn. I run Mobil 1 and change it at 5K versus say 3K for a dino based oil. This improves the economy of scale of pricey PAO based oils like Mobil 1 versus conventional oil and keeps me from jacking the car up as much. A Saturn on a good dino oil will likely go 200-300K miles without taking the bottom end apart. I also run the slightly longer filter which fractionally increase sump capacity and may provide just a bit more storage for debris however not sure if it effectively filters better.
Thanks again for your experience,
George

SlowSC2 06-09-2007 04:50 AM

Re: Rotella T Engine Oil....
 
I thought it would be a 40w at lower temps?

gm7 06-09-2007 06:00 AM

Re: Rotella T Engine Oil....
 
[QUOTE=SlowSC2;1072609]I thought it would be a 40w at lower temps?[/QUOTE]
Nope...acts as 5W at lower temps and 40W at high temps.
5W at high temps would be disasterous...lol.
The Newtonian reference in the previous thread is about the inverse relationship between viscosity and temperature. The colder it gets, the thicker or more viscous oil gets. To combat this, oil is formulated to act thinner at low temperature then unmodified dino oil to ensure adequate flow.
The bigger the differential in viscosity rating, i.e. 0-40W for example, the more resistance oil is to becoming more viscous at cold termperature. You need the higher value for high temperature to preserve viscosity and film thickness to prevent flashing and loss of film thickness.
HTH,
George

97coupe 06-09-2007 06:17 AM

Re: Rotella T Engine Oil....
 
[QUOTE=SlowSC2;1072609]I thought it would be a 40w at lower temps?[/QUOTE]

Actually there is no 40W rating. It is 40 weight or 40 SAE or API. The "W" after the number stands for it passing the winter test rating not weight like 0w20, 5w30, 10w30 and 15w40. I know of no winter test rating for 40 weight. This is why you also never see a 30W or 40w on a straight weight can or bottle but you can on 10 or 20 like 20W20. (never seen straight 5 but they might make it)

gm7 06-09-2007 06:33 PM

Re: Rotella T Engine Oil....
 
[QUOTE=97coupe;1072629]Actually there is no 40W rating. It is 40 weight or 40 SAE or API. The "W" after the number stands for it passing the winter test rating not weight like 0w20, 5w30, 10w30 and 15w40. I know of no winter test rating for 40 weight. This is why you also never see a 30W or 40w on a straight weight can or bottle but you can on 10 or 20 like 20W20. (never seen straight 5 but they might make it)[/QUOTE]
What is 20W-50 then? I would presume it acts like 50W at high temp which is different then 40W at high temp and 30W etc.
George

97coupe 06-09-2007 07:31 PM

Re: Rotella T Engine Oil....
 
[QUOTE=gm7;1072819]What is 20W-50 then? I would presume it acts like 50W at high temp which is different then 40W at high temp and 30W etc.
George[/QUOTE]


20W50 means it has passed the low temp test for 20 grade hence the "W" and the 50 means it has passed the flow rate for 50 SAE/API at the rated high temperature for that test. It is never tested as a 30 or 40 weight nor would it pass it because it would be too thick. BTW, 20w50 has a lot of VI too and if you think you need more than straight 30 or 15w40 temperature wise you should just use straight 40. Unless it is a air cooled motor like a motorcycle or aircraft engine or such that can have very high cylinder and head temps, 50 weight is really of little value in a street car. I have seen straight weight motor oil as high as 70 weight and long long ago I had a friend that used to buy straight 60 weight Pennzoil by the case for a really old knuckle head Harley he had. That was some thick stuff.

Luke 06-10-2007 03:44 PM

Fm 97 Coupe > For what it's worth..
 
[quote][b][color=blue]> Fm 97 Coupe <[/color][/b]

[size=1][color=purple]> The 40 weight rating at higher temps will increase the power required to shear it and reduce MPG a bit and sometimes it can even increase oil consumption in a tight engine because it is harder to scrap the thicker film off of the walls of cylinder...... 20W50 means it has passed the low temp test for 20 grade hence the "W" and the 50 means it has passed the flow rate for 50 SAE/API at the rated high temperature for that test. It is never tested as a 30 or 40 weight nor would it pass it because it would be too thick.

BTW, 20w50 has a lot of VI too and if you think you need more than straight 30 or 15w40 temperature wise you should just use straight 40. <

[/size][/color][/quote]

Very well explained -- you may want to add this to the "How-To" Library. :yes:

westwind999 06-10-2007 09:06 PM

Re: Rotella T Engine Oil....
 
Don't forget to check the rating on the oil. Some of the old straight weight oils are SB or something and WILL ruin your engine. Modern oils are SL or SM but you can still buy SB for antique engines.

Jim Dunlop 06-10-2007 09:35 PM

Re: Rotella T Engine Oil....
 
I have been enjoying Royal Purple recently. It's fun to watch the droplets dance and spin in the funnel. That stuff is SOOO slippery.

97coupe 06-10-2007 09:45 PM

Re: Rotella T Engine Oil....
 
[QUOTE=Jim Dunlop;1073482]I have been enjoying Royal Purple recently. It's fun to watch the droplets dance and spin in the funnel. That stuff is SOOO slippery.[/QUOTE]

I am not so sure that droplets like that is a sign of a good oil. It tends to suggest is has a high surface tension and does not easily coat some surfaces. I like the see a oil the will coat everything well.

oseberg 06-10-2007 10:32 PM

Re: Rotella T Engine Oil....
 
[QUOTE=97coupe;1072459]I still maintain after all of this that frequent changes is more important that whether it is SYN or dino because I have yet to wear a engine out either way that I started new with. .[/QUOTE]

Have you ever actually worn an engine out by failing to change the oil? I've been through several handmedown vehicles that were given to me in very neglected condition, and I continued to neglect them. The only maintainance was repairs of failed parts, keeping the oil pressure light from comming on, and keeping them from overheating. And I have yet to wear out an engine by neglecting oil, and filter changes. I actually saw one vehicle when I was a kid with an oil pressure gauge that was reading fine when you'd start the car, then if you reved the engine, it would go up, then down to below where it was before you reved it. Then you rev it again and it would do the same but end up with even lower oil pressure. You could do this a few times and get the pressure really low, then stop the car, wait a few seconds, then restart it and the oil pressure would be high again. Changing the oil filter solved the problem. This was in an MGB with an oil filter so old that it was full of junk that would get stirred up and clog it more every time you reved the engine just like a fuel filter I once had.

That said, I still don't recommend doing this to a car you care about or really need to keep running, but pretty much the only important thing is to not run out of oil. As long as there's enough in there to keep the oil pressure within specs, the type of oil, amount of oil, and the age of the oil really doesn't matter much.

However, I haven't experimented enough with my Saturn to know if the type of oil has any effect on the clogging of the rings. I suspect that the additives are more important than the oil itself. You can probably be fine with using the cheapest oil available, and using some sort of engine flush product maybe every 5 oil changes or something.

[QUOTE=westwind999;1073465]Don't forget to check the rating on the oil. Some of the old straight weight oils are SB or something and WILL ruin your engine. Modern oils are SL or SM but you can still buy SB for antique engines.[/QUOTE]

Can someone explain what SB, SL, and SM are? And why would SB ruin an engine?

97coupe 06-11-2007 01:10 AM

Re: Rotella T Engine Oil....
 
[QUOTE=oseberg;1073518]Have you ever actually worn an engine out by failing to change the oil? I've been through several handmedown vehicles that were given to me in very neglected condition, and I continued to neglect them. The only maintainance was repairs of failed parts, keeping the oil pressure light from comming on, and keeping them from overheating. And I have yet to wear out an engine by neglecting oil, and filter changes. I actually saw one vehicle when I was a kid with an oil pressure gauge that was reading fine when you'd start the car, then if you reved the engine, it would go up, then down to below where it was before you reved it. Then you rev it again and it would do the same but end up with even lower oil pressure. You could do this a few times and get the pressure really low, then stop the car, wait a few seconds, then restart it and the oil pressure would be high again. Changing the oil filter solved the problem. This was in an MGB with an oil filter so old that it was full of junk that would get stirred up and clog it more every time you reved the engine just like a fuel filter I once had.

That said, I still don't recommend doing this to a car you care about or really need to keep running, but pretty much the only important thing is to not run out of oil. As long as there's enough in there to keep the oil pressure within specs, the type of oil, amount of oil, and the age of the oil really doesn't matter much.

However, I haven't experimented enough with my Saturn to know if the type of oil has any effect on the clogging of the rings. I suspect that the additives are more important than the oil itself. You can probably be fine with using the cheapest oil available, and using some sort of engine flush product maybe every 5 oil changes or something.[/QUOTE]

Over the years I have had a few used cars that I got real cheap that had received poor maintainance and they were oil burners and had poor oil pressure too and I have seen a few friends ruin engines from not changing oil.



[QUOTE=oseberg;1073518]
Can someone explain what SB, SL, and SM are? And why would SB ruin an engine?[/QUOTE]


SA is basically pure motor oil with no additives. SB had some anti wear and anti oxidation additives but still no detergent. (SB is good break in oil on a fresh rebuild to run a few hundred miles) Starting with SC they added detergent to it and with each increasing grade they have added more to oil (detergent, anti foaming etc) Below is a link to a general chart of ratings.

[URL="http://www.burkeoil.com/pdf/oilguide.pdf"]Click here [/URL]

oseberg 06-11-2007 01:42 AM

Re: Rotella T Engine Oil....
 
[QUOTE=97coupe;1073629]Over the years I have had a few used cars that I got real cheap that had received poor maintainance and they were oil burners and had poor oil pressure too and I have seen a few friends ruin engines from not changing oil.[/QUOTE]

Are you sure your friends engins were ruined by not changing oil, or were they ruined by running out of oil?

I've seen the insides of an engine that ran out of oil, and that changed by beliefs about what happens when an engine runs out of oil. Nothing actually, "wore out". What happened was that the bearings overheaded and melted.

[QUOTE=97coupe;1073629][URL="http://www.burkeoil.com/pdf/oilguide.pdf"]Click here [/URL][/QUOTE]

Thanks I'll check it out. I was just searching Bobistheoilguy for info. Didn't find anything yet.

oseberg 06-11-2007 02:48 AM

Re: Rotella T Engine Oil....
 
This is great, ""3: Viscosity Grade: The measure of an oil's thickness and ability to flow at certain temperatures. Vehicle requirements may vary. Follow your vehicle manufacturer's recommendations on SAE oil viscosity grade."

Uhh, but what do the numbers actually mean?

[QUOTE=97coupe;1072845]20W50 means it has passed the low temp test for 20 grade hence the "W" and the 50 means it has passed the flow rate for 50 SAE/API at the rated high temperature for that test.[/QUOTE]

"low temp test for 20 grade" What does that mean?
Is 20w twice as viscous as 10w which is twice as viscous as 5w at low temperatures?

I believe what they do is place a certain amount of oil on a ramp, and then see how far it oozes down the ramp in a certain amount of time. If this is the case, does 20w ooze half as far as 10w at this low temperature?

Now for the second number, is it the same test (certain amount of oil on a ramp) at some high temperature?

I can't seem to find anything on Bobistheoilguy that explains, nor can I find anything on either of these pages:
[url]http://www.burkeoil.com/pdf/oilguide.pdf[/url]
[url]http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/[/url]

The oilguide.pdf one listed what SM, SL, SJ, ... were with no real explanation

oseberg 06-11-2007 03:49 AM

Re: Rotella T Engine Oil....
 
I finally found this page:
[url]http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html[/url]

It appears that 20W50 has the viscocity of 20 at low temperature, and the viscocity that 50W would have at the hight temperature when it's at the high temperature which may be more runny than 20W is at low temperature.

It also says that they do a test where they allow the oil to drip through a hole and time how long it takes.

And, it appears that 20W is not twice as viscous as 10W which is not twice as viscous as 5W, and that they measure them at different cold temperatures since they are meant for starting engines in different climates.

oseberg 06-11-2007 06:23 AM

Re: Rotella T Engine Oil....
 
During my search for information I ran across this awsome website about lubrication.
[url]http://www.noria.com/learning_center/[/url]

(However, it's still missing the answers to the questions I have.)


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