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syeht 05-26-2004 09:04 AM

EGR Solenoid Control
 
I have a 97 SL. The EGR solenoid was just replace.Now the "Idiot"light is back on.I bought a code reader says the EGR solenoid control is bad. Where do I find it???????? Is it cleanable? easy to replace? I'm never going back to the dealer. Claims they replaced the right part.The light came on shortly after we left them.They want another $50 to look at it.They say there's over 200 parts in the EGR system.That's 200 X$50 minimum.

Luke 05-26-2004 10:18 AM

If you've not replaced your O2 sensor, and it's recommended to do so btwn 30-50,000 miles, what is happening is this: The code which was sent (I believe it is a 32) indicates that the EGR is having a problem. Take it off, and most likely, you'll find that it is carboned up. (Black Soot). This means that the EGR is "sticking". If you find any carbon, clean it out and then [u]check out the O2 Sensor.[/u] If that has not been changed, most likely it is "sluggish" and therefore in the initial phase of failing. That will result in the engine operating in a richer mode, with the evidence being reflected in your EGR.

BTW: Welcome to the site; you'll be very imressed with the input you receive.

Also, what is the mileage on your car and what maintenance have you performed on it?

[color=red]Your needing a new EGR is so remote, that it borders on impossible [/color]

syeht 05-26-2004 12:49 PM

Okay, but where are these parts? There seem to be hundreds of little unknown gadgets under the hood.I've looked over the net and not found a photo.I do all regular maintainance by the book.Only 45ooomiles on the car. mostly highway. 30 mile trips.code reader I used is a generic model. doesn't use the same code system most people here use.Thanks for the help.

geartooth94 05-26-2004 02:06 PM

saturnparts.com is a good source I always use for reference. They are a dealer out of Reading, PA.

When I go to get my EGR and O2 sensor that's where I'll go to get them. They give soemething like 25-30% discount off of retail online.

eljefino 05-26-2004 04:10 PM

There are six parts in your 1997 EGR system:

The valve
A gasket
two bolts
The engine that it bolts onto :)
the wire that plugs into it. :)

Find the long black air tube on the driver's side that goes from behind the headlight back to the engine. Look under this about 2/3 of the way back, on the engine. There'll be a widget the size of one of those little 6 oz sodas, sitting as if the soda were upright. It'll be bright and shiny if it were replaced; dull like the rest of the car if it wasn't.

Do please post the exact [b]PXXXX[/b] code here, too. The "code 32" you read about is 1995/older OBD-I.

[IMG]http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/eljefino/egr.jpg[/IMG]

syeht 05-26-2004 07:44 PM

The picture shows exactly what the EGR solenoid I have looks like. It has been replaced.One sensor on the very right of the manifold was not plugged in all the way.Removed two sensors from the manifold and sprayed cleaner in them.Disconnected the battery to reset the "idiot" light.so far so good. my code was 1404 "EGR solenoid control faulty" The code reader is a Creader.
They replaced the pcv valve hose. said it was special part $5. 3" of stock hose.talk about price gouging.

Luke 05-27-2004 10:01 AM

Check your Oxygen Sensor Also
 
[b]Eljefino[/b]

[color=green]Fabulous picture[/color] with your detailed outline and explanation. With my simple brain -- it works for me. Please continue to do it. Thank you.

BTW, SYEHT, in as much as you've had to change your EGR (probably from carbonizing), it would be a very good idea ( granted, I'm repeating myself ) to also [u]change your O2 sensor[/u], as they are good for about 50,000 & when they begin to become "sluggish", one of the results is carbon in the EGR,causing it to sticking, leading to an SES light/code.

wolfman 05-27-2004 01:51 PM

That is a LINEAR ELECTRONIC EGR valve. It has NO 'solenoid" but is controlled and monitored directly by the PCM. That EGR control circuit code with that unit is usually do to either a bad or loose wiring harness or connector at the valve itself, a blown fuse, or a loose or bad connnection at the TPS or ECTS (or bad ECTS) as it's data is used to indicate to the PCM when to start actuating the EGR valve in relation to engine temperature.

syeht 05-28-2004 12:09 AM

Re: Check your Oxygen Sensor Also
 
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Luke [/i]
change your O2 sensor[QUOTE] Which one is it??? There has to be a thousand.

wolfman 05-28-2004 12:17 AM

No offence meant, but Luke has become quite obsessed with O2 sensors recently. Yours most likely is just FINE. An O2 sensor has nothing directly to do with EGR function at all. O2 sensor data is used to monitor and set air fuel mixture ratios at that is pretty much it. If you are not having any driveability issues, poor MPG or actual O2 sensor codes, do not be in a big hurry to pony up the $65+ to "fix' something that ain't broke.

Luke 05-28-2004 09:27 AM

[b]Wolf[/b]
Can you not have an Oxygen Sensor becoming 'sluggish', cycling slower, or erratically going off line (resulting in the system going into open-loop status), all happening without the system setting a code ? I'm suggesting that when this happens, the air/fuel mixture will go richer, and over time, will result in the egr developing a carbin build up. All of this resulting in a EGR code being set, without any indication of an Oxygen Sensor in the initial phase of failing.

TedL 05-28-2004 09:35 AM

Everything, including O2 sensor performance, is much more closely monitored in Syeht's 97 OBD 2 system than in your OBD 1. There are specific tests for O2S response time run during each trip. Not likely to be off without setting a code.

syeht 05-28-2004 10:29 AM

Thanks for all the help. I'll stay tuned. The "Idiot" lights been off for a record Three days!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bennett9000 05-28-2004 11:06 AM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Luke [/i]
[B][b]Wolf[/b]
Can you not have an Oxygen Sensor becoming 'sluggish', cycling slower, or erratically going off line (resulting in the system going into open-loop status), all happening without the system setting a code ?[/B][/QUOTE]

My 99 SW2 throws an intermittent SES light with the code for a "slow" O2 sensor reading. Usually after a long (2-hours or so) drive. Then it goes out, and it's fine.

jeep4523 05-28-2004 12:23 PM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Luke [/i]
[B][b]Wolf[/b]
Can you not have an Oxygen Sensor becoming 'sluggish', cycling slower, or erratically going off line (resulting in the system going into open-loop status), all happening without the system setting a code ? I'm suggesting that when this happens, the air/fuel mixture will go richer, and over time, will result in the egr developing a carbin build up. All of this resulting in a EGR code being set, without any indication of an Oxygen Sensor in the initial phase of failing. [/B][/QUOTE]

I would tend to trust a Factory Trained Service Technitian who used to deal with things like this all the time to know the signs involved with different problems.

A/F messes with fuel delivery, not EGR functions.

wolfman 05-28-2004 07:25 PM

OBD2 cars (96' and UP) Monitor EGR and O2 function MUCH more closely than OBD1. An OBD2 PCM can not only control EGR function, it can actually SEE how far and fast/slow the EGR is or is not opening. Likewise O2 sensor function is very closely monitored and most OBD2 Saturns have 2 O2 sensors, including one that helps monitor catalitic convertor function. If an OBD2 car has an EGR VALVE related problem it WILL set a code 99.9% of the time. Likewise an failing O2 sensor (or even a marginal one) will set an SES light on an OBD2 car nearly 100% of the time (and often when the O2 sensor is still pretty much just fine but is being adversely affected by another system or sensor) Even on OBD1 cars there is NO "recommended change interval" for an O2 sensor. You replace them when they fail badly (and often) enough to affect either emissions or driveability, thats it. Believe it or not, factors such as ambiant air temperature, quality of fuel and even humidity alone or in combination, can have TEMPORARY adverse affects on O2 sensor readings, that will self correct when the "factor" goes away.

Luke 05-29-2004 11:15 AM

[quote][b]Fm Wolf[/b]
Even on OBD1 cars there is NO "recommended change interval" for an O2 sensor.[/quote]

With considerable respect (as we all have devloped for Wolf over time) and deference, I would close with the suggestion that [u]no[/u] issue should be so definitely closed. As we all continue to learn I submit my sources on the subject, simply as being added information (input) for purposes of consideration towards evaluating problems which may arise with our cars.

As to Replacement Intervals for Oxyen Sensors, may I suggest the site noted below:
[url]http://www.autotap.com/oxygensensors/[/url]

To maintain peak engine performance, there's no need to wait until the sensor fails to replace it. Some experts now recommend replacing O2 sensors at specific mileage intervals for preventive maintenance. The recommended interval for unheated one or two wire O2 sensors on 1976 through early 1990s applications is every 30,000 to 50,000 miles. Heated three- and four-wire O2 sensors on mid-1980s through mid-1990s applications can be changed every 60,000 miles. And on 1996 and newer OBD2 vehicles, the recommended replacement interval is 100,000 miles.

Additional information on titled: "What the Home Mechanic Needs to know about O2 Sensors", can be found at:
[url]http://www.autotap.com/articles/Understanding_Oxygen_Sensors.html[/url]

Any O2 sensor that is defective obviously needs to be replaced. But there may also be benefits to replacing the O2 sensor periodically for preventive maintenance. Replacing an aging O2 sensor that has become sluggish can restore peak fuel efficiency, minimize exhaust emissions and prolong the life of the converter.

Unheated 1 or 2 wire wire O2 sensors on 1976 through early 1990s vehicles can be replaced every 30,000 to 50,000 miles. Heated 3 and 4-wire O2 sensors on mid-1980s through mid-1990s applications can be changed every 60,000 miles. On OBD II equipped vehicles (1996 & up), a replacement interval of 100,000 miles is recommended.

And finally, an article titled: "Oxygen Sensor" can be found at:
[url]http://home.flash.net/~lorint/lorin/fuel/lambda.htm[/url]
This article is out of England.

I fully realize that the authors of these articles may well have a vested interest in presenting their position; however, one should not totally discount such input.

Finally, I simply sense, if the oxygen sensor is not operating at peak performance, while not setting a SES code, the resulting enriched mode of operation will result in a carbon build up: sticking the EGR valve.

Simply a thought..

robh456 05-29-2004 02:47 PM

Pre-OBD II vehicles tended to have pretty poor oxygen sensor diagnostics - for a trouble code to set, the sensor would have to be either not responding at all or else stuck lean or rich for most of the time. OBD II vehicles have much more sophisticated diagnostics, they monitor things like switching rates, transition times, rich-lean vs lean-rich switching time and transition ratios, etc. But on an OBD I vehicle, it's quite possible for the sensor to be worn out and not set a code.

wolfman 05-30-2004 02:40 AM

Replacing the entire engine at 60K miles would probably net better performance and reliability too....but I doubt anyone would go to the expense. My whole point being that spending $60+ replacing a part that probably does not "need" to be replaced (and is non-returnable) in the "hope" of netting a performance or MPG improvement is penny wise and pound foolish. At 2 tanks (10 Gal) a week, even a net MPG increase of 3 MPG would "save you" maybe 1 gallon a week. At $2.50 a gallon, it would take 4-5 months for even a "cheapy" $60 O2 sensor to "pay for itself" and even start to net you any real savings. ...


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