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-   -   Unknown engine noise when cold (http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264514)

454cid 01-08-2020 08:24 PM

Re: Unknown engine noise when cold
 
[QUOTE=toggenburg;2338743]I also pour in a full quart of ATF in each oil change on all cars since the 1970's.
It won't hurt a thing, but it will clean up an engine, better and cheaper than Marvel Mystery oil, or Rislone products. Never had any engine opened up for any reason yet. That's on many engines and cumulative mileage easily of over 1M miles. It won't hurt your engine to keep ATF in the oil year round.[/QUOTE]

That's a lot of ATF for our engines.

Waiex191 01-08-2020 09:28 PM

Re: Unknown engine noise when cold
 
[quote=454cid;2338750]that's a lot of atf for our engines.[/quote]
~22%!

cgg17 01-08-2020 10:20 PM

Re: Unknown engine noise when cold
 
Based off of the noise, I would be more inclined to say that it is the timing chain. Out 99 had a sporratic noise that sounded like that, but not quite as bad.

can0fspam 01-10-2020 12:36 AM

Re: Unknown engine noise when cold
 
I found a thread: [URL="http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234263"]http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234263[/URL]

... in which a user suspects his timing chain is bad. However the video he posted sounds a lot like mine. Like, almost identical. Later commenters told him it sounded like lifters and he was able to resolve the issue by running different oil and putting some additive through to clean out the lifters.

I finally found my nice long handled screwdriver and listened on the intake and exhaust sides of the head -- as close as I could get to all 8 lifters.
I definitely heard noises through the handle. Most of them sounded like metallic whirling in-time with the "chain" noise, but one of them on the front was distinctly clicking through the screwdriver.

I'm almost relieved it seems like it *might* not be a chain ready to let loose. Just rolled over 189,000 so I think I'll add some ATF and change the oil soon. The new oil is going to be a nicer brand than the cheap walmart special I've been using...

Of course, my apologies for dragging this thread out, but the documentation of the issue might help someone else later on...

Waiex191 01-10-2020 07:34 AM

Re: Unknown engine noise when cold
 
[QUOTE=can0fspam;2338856]... but the documentation of the issue might help someone else later on...[/QUOTE]
This is what it's all about!

toggenburg 01-10-2020 09:06 AM

Re: Unknown engine noise when cold
 
Yes, ~22% ATF in all oil changes.

Tell you what, here is a direct quote right from marvel mystery oil's website itself.

"For example, if your engine has a 5-quart oil capacity, replace one of the quarts with a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil. Repeat at every oil change for optimal performance. Marvel Mystery Oil can be added to engine oil 300 to 500 miles before your next oil change to supplement sludge removal and enhance engine cleaning.
How to use - Marvel Mystery Oil
[url]https://www.marvelmysteryoil.com[/url] gasoline-engine automobile"

I repeat, iv'e done this with any brand ATF for decades. Each oil change on all my cars and kids vehicles too. Even on my Audi 5000S and '68 Corvette with IIRC the L88 engine.
Only then, when they would rust out (Chicago rust belt) would I get rid of the vehicle, and even then, their engines had never, never needed any internal work done even up to 331,000+ miles on that engine.

You can lead a many a car owner to water (truth), but you cannot get many to drink (to actually overcome fear and to try something different that works).

can0fspam 01-10-2020 09:33 AM

Re: Unknown engine noise when cold
 
[QUOTE=toggenburg;2338875]Yes, ~22% ATF in all oil changes.

Tell you what, here is a direct quote right from marvel mystery oil's website itself.

"For example, if your engine has a 5-quart oil capacity, replace one of the quarts with a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil. Repeat at every oil change for optimal performance. Marvel Mystery Oil can be added to engine oil 300 to 500 miles before your next oil change to supplement sludge removal and enhance engine cleaning.
How to use - Marvel Mystery Oil
[url]https://www.marvelmysteryoil.com[/url] gasoline-engine automobile"

I repeat, iv'e done this with any brand ATF for decades. Each oil change on all my cars and kids vehicles too. Even on my Audi 5000S and '68 Corvette with IIRC the L88 engine.
Only then, when they would rust out (Chicago rust belt) would I get rid of the vehicle, and even then, their engines had never, never needed any internal work done even up to 331,000+ miles on that engine.

You can lead a many a car owner to water (truth), but you cannot get many to drink (to actually overcome fear and to try something different that works).[/QUOTE]

Are you saying you replace a quart with ATF before changing, or you put in ATF with fresh oil for the entire interval?

I could see the first one working well but I would be concerned about the weight of the ATF for the second one if it's that much of your oil.

toggenburg 01-10-2020 01:49 PM

Re: Unknown engine noise when cold
 
To be clear: with the fresh oil for the entire OCI interval.
i.e.
An oil change with a 5 qt capacity including filter change:
I put in 4 quarts of whatever synthetic OR dino oil, plus 1 quart Dexron III.
I then drain it out only at the 3000 mile interval, and repeat as stated.
Done this procedure continuously since the early 1970's without engine issues.
Also, until 18 years ago, I was in the Chicagoland area and always passed the annual automobile 'breath analyzer' test without failure.
I don't know if they still do that up there or not though, because Virginia where I am, does not require it at all.:)

can0fspam 01-12-2020 03:53 PM

Re: Unknown engine noise when cold
 
We've got an update:
I pulled the valve cover again and checked for tension in the chain up top as well as down inside the timing cover.
There was significant enough play up top, and the chain was almost completely loose below the front cam gear.
Below the back cam gear, it was fully tight. This makes sense - I think the tensioner is on this side.
However this seems bad enough to me that I will put a new chain in it ASAP. There's enough movement around the front gear that it wouldn't be hard to jump a tooth.

Video (let me know if the quality is too poor):
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEaEwo_BXxs[/url]

Unless this amount of play is in-spec, I think this tells me all I need to know about the condition of the chain/tensioner.

can0fspam 01-29-2020 02:09 PM

Re: Unknown engine noise when cold
 
For documentation purposes:
I replaced the timing chain and the noise disappeared entirely. I haven't yet diagnosed what part of the timing set went bad. I'm guessing it was the tensioner because it wasn't quite fully extended (so the chain probably wasn't too long). The guides were both worn in pretty deep too.

If your car makes a noise like my videos - even if you remove the serpentine belt - it's probably your timing chain.


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