SaturnFans.com Forums

SaturnFans.com Forums (http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/index.php)
-   S-Series Tech (http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=39)
-   -   Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread (http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231231)

Space_Suitor 05-23-2017 08:53 PM

Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
So I've got this neat, crappy car! It's kind of a handsome horse, so I'd hate to have to be the one to shoot it. :cry:

It runs and drives straight but it's got over 200k on the clock, leakin' and squeekin' all over the place. Definitely crying for a re-build.

This is not my first rodeo. No siree, I have been around the block a time or two, and I know it is painful, down there in the muck and the mire, way back with my first flat tire. ("MY FIRST FLAT TIRE", latest reality show from LIFETIME Network?)

I have studied all of the relevent YT vids...(any of those guys here? Bueller?) I've got a Haynes Guide, torque wrench, some hi-temp bearing grease from H.Freight....what could possibly stop me?

:us::tounge:

What I'm [I]trying[/I] to say is that I know it will be a long, painful process.....and I am so pleased to have you all here to share in the joyride and near-death experience of it all. (Maybe you will thank me later! :yes: )

To summarize my skill level, I have one year of experience as a basic service technician, a couple semesters of night school (brakes, steer/susp). I have removed transmissions from Isu Rodeo & Chev Suburban, headgasket on Mitsu Expo. Plenty of starters, alt's and belts, even the carburetors and waterpump on my Yamaha Vision 550.

However, I have never completely removed an engine, holy st!nkers are you nuts??

Since the car came with the lower block, I have to wonder if I shouldn't just source the top head from wrecking yard and assemble it on the bench/stand, perform swap.

Something is ***** in the transmission situation, but....maybe SOME things should be left to the pro's, huh? :sleep:

On its' head it seems like a monumental undertaking, but...I am something of a risk-taker, a welcomer of challenges, an acceptor of foolish burden.

WHAT A GAS! ... SOCK IT TO ME!

:stoplight

Jim@HiTek 05-23-2017 09:36 PM

Re: Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
Hah! I know the feeling about engine changes. I've done several over the years.

What I'd suggest is to buy or borrow your own hoist and engine stand. Boy does that make the work go [I][B]FAST[/B][/I]. Can't recommend it enough.

Keep us posted with lots of pictures please.

billr 05-23-2017 09:45 PM

Re: Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
Did I read correct, you [I]got[/I] this with no head? If so, yeah, figure on a total rebuild, you are half-way there anyway; plus you probably have no clue as to the condition of the block components. What type of trans, manual or auto?

Note that I am really confused, since your other thread indicates you got this running... that ain't gonna happen without a head on it!

Waiex191 05-23-2017 11:21 PM

Re: Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
If my 15 year old can do it, you can too. Heck, even I can do it. Dive in.

Space_Suitor 05-24-2017 08:35 AM

Re: Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
[QUOTE=billr;2242270]Did I read correct, you [I]got[/I] this with no head? If so, yeah, figure on a total rebuild, you are half-way there anyway; plus you probably have no clue as to the condition of the block components. What type of trans, manual or auto?

Note that I am really confused, since your other thread indicates you got this running... that ain't gonna happen without a head on it![/QUOTE]

Hey Bill, the car was complete and ran when I bought it, came with a SPARE lower block, as the kid's father-in-law had never gotten around to doing the re-build. I drove it for 2 weeks, performing services on it before it conked out on 4/20. Thanks to this helpful forum, it runs again.

The trans is an auto, and reverse gear has 50/50 chance of choosing smooth vs. slam.

I think a helpful preliminary approach might be to discuss which components I can expect to replace in the process of a re-build? Obviously I won't be able to re-sell it for a fortune, nevertheless I would like to make sure I've gotten the essentials.

Things which come to mind include:

Piston rings + Bore & Resurface....
Bearings of some sort
Head gasket + bolts (included with purchase!)
Valve seals
Oil pump, Steering Pump, Alternator
Timing chain + tensioner, cover-gasket
Water pump, fan, radiator
All the sensors
Lots of O-rings

Anyone have experience with modding the piston for oil relief holes? How much time does that add to a job and how much should I expect a machine shop to charge for all that work?

Also, what's your personal favorite de-greasing agent :?:

billr 05-24-2017 09:26 AM

Re: Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
For most de-greasing I use simple paint thinner (mineral spirits, Stoddard solvent, all same thing) and a water rinse. Hot soapy water is probably better, but I'm usually just blasting with a garden hose.

As to the rebuild, pay great attention to finding a good shop. Inspecting the crank, rods, bores, etc. is going to be critical to having a good rebuild and yet keep costs reasonable. You may, or may [I]not [/I]need the boring (and new pistons) or crank work. Line-boring of crank saddles, truing/sizing of rods, block/head surfacing; things like that are not commonly needed, but sure should be inspected for, or the rebuild may not last as expected.

I have not done it, but the piston drilling looks like it should be a trivial job for me or a competent machine shop. Of course, if you need need new pistons you just be sure to get ones with the holes already there.

Again, spend the time to look for a good shop, that decision could "make or break" this project.

alordofchaos 05-24-2017 10:50 AM

Re: Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
Was looking for something else the other day, found a bunch of my old notes. I'll just put this here (have never done a rebuild so if/when I do this, it will be my first, too)

[QUOTE]Oil drain holes
[url]http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176648&page=2[/url]


[url]http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122148[/url]

[url]http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100251&highlight=piston+wrist+drill[/url]
Wolfman said he recommended the Total Seal conventional classics
I have found that simply using the rings I recommended have solved the oil usage issues on every in-frame I have done, with no piston modification needed.
drill 6 holes in the oil control ring groove. Id say 1/16" is plenty big. it wont hurt anything. my wiseco pistons came this way, for the same reason.

Oldnuc [url]http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133729&highlight=piston+wrist+drill[/url]
You drill 6 or 8 evenly spaced holes 1/16" diameter through the oil control ring land into the center area. Do not put a hole in line with the wrist pin axis. using the wrist pin axis as 0 degrees for 8 holes displace 22.5 degrees and drill the first hole. Continue every 45 degrees until you are done. Displace 30 degrees for 6 holes. The lower edge of the hole should be just above the bottom of the land or you can center it in the land and then ream to get close to both edges

[url]http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118258&highlight=why+saturns+burn+oil[/url]

You drill 6 or 8 evenly spaced holes 1/16" diameter through the oil control ring land into the center area. Do not put a hole in line with the wrist pin axis. using the wrist pin axis as 0 degrees for 8 holes displace 22.5 degrees and drill the first hole. Continue every 45 degrees until you are done. Displace 30 degrees for 6 holes. The lower edge of the hole should be just above the bottom of the land or you can center it in the land and then ream to get close to both edges.

One of the more recent threads involved DIYguy who has done the mod. There are aftermarket pistons available with 4 fairly large holes extending below the oil control ring land.

You need a drill press and a dividing plate to do this the easy way. or a drill press, vee block and careful setup would work also.

Did this last year on a 2001 DOHC engine. The pistons drill very easy with the drill press maybe 5-10 seconds per hole. Just make sure to clean out the burs around the holes (both inside and outside) and remove all the dust and shavings. With 15,000 miles on these pistons the engine is running perfectly. Currently not burning any oil. I guess I will have to waits another 80,000-100,000 miles to tell if these holes have any effect on oil consumption.

If you went with the 6 holes you have to ream them to as large as will fit in the land. The 8 will work at 1/8 inch. I think the previous post where I said 1/16 is too small, temporary loss of mind. You want the hole as large as you can get without running into problems. Measure the oil ring grove in your pistons and use the closest smaller fractional size drill. You want about 1/64 clearance between the hole and the top and bottom of the grove. It is not that critical as long as there are enough and they are large enough to drain the oil ring spacer area.

The number of holes and the location determines how much oil is removed by the rings. With the present crop of both dino and synthetic oils that posses a very high film strength as compared to the oils of 10 years ago I would think that 8 1/8" holes is the max you would want and 6 reamed out to the max available space would effectively be the same. locating 4 1/8 holes on the thrust face of the piston would work also as the holes close to the wrist pin don't do much. If I were going to go with only 4 holes I would place them 45 degrees from the wrist pin axis.

I have been studying the "holes in pistons" threads and I too had doubts / anxiety. Well, this last weekend, I tore down a 95 SC2 DOHC with 142k and passing enough oil through the engine to subsidize a fine education for children of the Oil Barons. The compression rings had a bit of build up, but the oil rings were packed solid with crud. Soaked the pistons in the sun for a day in a pan of ammonia, that loosened nearly all of it, the rest cleaned up with brake cleaner (the good stuff).

The drill bit size that seemed to fit best was a 3/32". (some post 1/16 & other say 1/8, it seems that 3/32 keeps a comfortable distance from both top and bottom walls) I drilled 2 holes on each side at about 45-60 degrees off the the wrist pin axis. I put the head on last night and hope to fire it up in the next 48 hrs. I hope the cat isnt plugged!!

Pilot drill with a 1/8 drill and finish with a 3/32. Use a V block and a drill press. 3/32 is probably the ideal size. I drill lots of holes and was working from memory. No notes either. I should not do that memory is weak

The problem is not excessive oil on the cylinder walls it is the accumulation of carbon in the oil control ring separator. Each of the scraper rings constitutes a knife edge filter, very efficient. The lower ring scrapes on the up stroke and the upper on the down stroke. The oil and carbon lands in the separator area. The flow path to the existing notches is long and torturous. This results in a low flow velocity, this means the heavy particles sink. So you end up with carbon build up. Now by drilling some additional drain holes in the high thrust areas you provide a path to dump the carbon into the pan before the flow velocity drops. Most oil is scraped off of the thrust sides of the piston. Four large holes will work but 6 smaller ones is better and easier for the home machinist to pull off.

Helpful Tip for those doing a Re-ring;

My intake was coated with sooty buildup of 1/8" or more. Most would be that way I assume. I really think its best to clean out the crud. It cleans out really easy with these few steps.

1. Disconnect intake from head, take off the short throttle extension, soak intake passages with degreaser (good stuff).

2. Take a toilet bowl bristle brush (oval shaped, $1.50 from walmart) and compress the oval wire that holds the bristle into a straight brush. I had to melt the handle to straight it out, and the brush worked perfect for scrubbing the upper portion all the way in. For the 4 individual lower tubes, a toothbrush held by needle nose vise grips is just long enough to reach all the way in. My intake looks like new and probably weighs 2 pounds less![/QUOTE]


[QUOTE][url]http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140960&page=5[/url]

Razorak's overhaul thread
[url]http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40035[/url]

ehunter
[url]http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170045[/url]

cboss
[url]http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145250[/url]

richbrown
[url]http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141234[/url]

Low Saturn engine removal
[url]http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=23477&d=1303785822[/url]

Hunt4Steve
[url]http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186696[/url]

Anmasher
[url]http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187698[/url]

picasaweb canyon explorer DOHC rebuild pics
[url]https://picasaweb.google.com/115976226189011152484/1995SaturnDOHCEngineRebuild?authkey=Gv1sRgCL6UoammvrKEsAE#[/url][/QUOTE]

***

break in

[QUOTE][I]Originally Posted by OldNuc [/I]
To prime the oil system on a Saturn engine after a complete overhaul, head replacement or long term storage perform the following steps.

-Fill crankcase with 4 1/2 quarts of fresh new 5w-30 oil if this is the initial fill following a rebuild otherwise use 4 quarts of oil. Use a decent quality name brand oil.

-Fill a squirt pistol type oiler with the same oil.

-Squirt oil into the square port on the right side of the filter base do this several times until you can not get more oil to stay in it. This will take 4 to 6 ounces of oil.

-Fill the new oil filter a bit more than 1/2 full and screw it in place.

-Remove the PCM B fuse from the UHJB (under hood fuse box). This will prevent the fuel pump and injectors from operating while priming.

-Remove spark plugs.

-Place 1 squirt of 5w-30 oil in each cylinder.

-Turn key to crank and crank engine with the starter until the oil pressure light goes out. This may take several 20-30 second runs of the starter.

-Release key when the oil pressure light goes off.

-Turn key to crank and crank engine again until oil pressure light goes out. Repeat 2 times.

-Replace spark plugs.

-Replace PCM B fuse.

-Prime fuel system by turning key to on but not crank and wait until pump stops, turn key to off, wait 30 seconds. Repeat 2 times.

-Start engine. [/QUOTE]

alordofchaos 05-24-2017 11:13 AM

Re: Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
Some reverse slam threads (I have few notes because my cars are manual trans)

[url]http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98659[/url]

[url]http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113766[/url]

[url]http://www.justinchristie.ca/2008/02/16/fixing-the-common-saturn-s-series-reverse-slam/[/url]

Space_Suitor 05-24-2017 12:30 PM

Re: Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
Sweet reads!

MikeNW 05-24-2017 08:27 PM

Re: Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
May the force be with you!

About 20 years ago, I had a 73 Camaro 350 that had bent valves. Timing chain broke. Plus 125,000 or 250,000 miles on it, don't know which.

I read all about engine operation, assembly, modding, etc. Finally decided that I didn't have proper tools to do it. So took it to engine man. But Someday, my 97 SL will need at least some rebuilding, timing chain or rings or valve job. Might try it then ;)

Space_Suitor 12-08-2017 01:46 AM

Re: Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
1 Attachment(s)
Thank you, one and all!

The show is about to begin! :zzz:

I am pleased to announce the return of my project motorblock from Grumpy's Performance Center in Mulino, Oregon where she got an acid bath, had 4 pistons bored and the crank turned, to the tune of $352.52

I also used the shop to procure the rebuild kit.
Another $360 got me: pistons, rings, bearings, gasket set, timing kit, oil pump.

Shortly before I dropped her off at the machine shop, I was doing some last minute cleanup and decided to have a go at the freeze plugs. I locked the block in a bear hug and proceeded to punch the block with great force once the plug busted loose. I smashed the cap of second knuckle ring finger right hand. Took SIX STITCHES across thar sumb!t©h. Now all that remains is a scar, and the lingering mental anguish, and a balance of $75 which my insurance copay didn't cover. :us:

Today at a secondhand tool store I procured a new-in-box ratchet sleeve for installation piston installation, as well as the special pliers used to put the rings on said piston.

Remaining items on my shopping wish list include:

Assembly lube
Water pump + hoses
Serp Belt
P.S. pulley (chipped
Motor mounts x2 or 3 (absolutely DESTROYED!)
Alternator ("preventive maintenence")
Plug wires (fancy blue ones, please!)
VHT wrinkle paint + primer (Anyone tried this $h!t yet?)
???

Physical progress:

On stands, wheels off. Most superfluous engine components removed, disconnected. Valve cover off, most timing cover bolts out; Engine ready to be supported for motor mount and head removal. I may (definitely) have gotten carried away and loosened the head bolts prematurely. "Oh fkking well." :drool:

Before all that, still need to perform trans axle shaft nut service and also swap out that doo-hickey that lives on top, whatchymacallit with the fluid passages and whatnot, I've forgotten the name right now but I've got one that's rebuilt. :blockhead:?:

Will have to lap the valves and all that fun nonsense once I get the head off. Haven't decided if I will rent/buy the spring compression tool, or use a hammer and socket like Tarzan. The power drill+rubber hose method looks like fun!

Also, someone please remind me later that I still need to flush out the front half of the brakes? Only had time to do the rears, before.

Your advice and rude gestures are welcome, as always. :arr::upset:

Space_Suitor 12-08-2017 01:20 PM

Re: Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
"VALVE BODY!" :redface:

alordofchaos 12-08-2017 01:37 PM

Re: Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
Lol, your memory is like mine.

I got no rude gestures or nothing, but wanted to say glad to see you are still at it, and good luck!

Waiex191 12-08-2017 01:46 PM

Re: Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
Doesn't somebody have a signature which states the only sure way to fix an automatic is to replace it with a manual? Very wise.

Space_Suitor 12-11-2017 03:11 AM

Re: Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
Tonight I slapped the rings on the pistons.

Yep, they fit! :cd:

I see the book talking about measuring ring end gap, and I've seen videos of guys taking meat off' em on a grinder and then filing off the burrs. To me, this looks like a great opportunity to absolutely ruin the whole project when "good enough" could have sufficed. But then again, apparently it is "a thing" , and obviously there is a reason for it.

What is the consensus on the necessity of this operation?

Furthermore, I cannot seem to find any particularly recommended CLOCKING orientation. How'bout "ANYTHING GOES"? :clock::no:

Waiex191 12-11-2017 08:05 AM

Re: Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
I've never used a grinder, just a small file. There is a specification for ring end gap. When the ring gets hot it expands. If there is not enough gap the ends jam against each other. Next the expansion continues to jam the rings against the cylinder and when it is too much, the ring breaks. To check ring end gap, pop it into the cylinder and push it in an inch or so using a piston. That ensures the ring is true to the bore and lets you get a good measurement.

Highmile 12-11-2017 09:19 AM

Re: Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
[QUOTE=billr;2242310]For most de-greasing I use simple paint thinner (mineral spirits, Stoddard solvent, all same thing) and a water rinse. Hot soapy water is probably better, but I'm usually just blasting with a garden hose.[/QUOTE]

Not a big fan of this... use Super Clean or one of the other water based degreasing/cleaning products. I put Super Clean in a spray bottle and then use a parts cleaning brush for the heavy stuff.

Best advice, find a good machine shop for bore and cylinder head work. Then order rebuild kit from Clegg.

Highmile
'95 SL1 646k and counting

bumpdraft 12-11-2017 07:13 PM

Re: Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
[QUOTE=Space_Suitor;2242267]So I've got this neat, ...Yamaha Vision 550.
...I am something of a risk-taker, a welcomer of challenges, an acceptor of foolish burden. :stoplight[/QUOTE]
You donít seriously have a Vision, do you?
Rumor has it that the shaft drive was in cooperation with Porsche.
I have a Ď83 Vision for sale.
It has not been started in a long time, but it is in good shape and could always be some serious parts. Iím in Meshegan, so shipping is as far as possible.
I tried to sell it to the owner of the Vision website, but he was not interested what-so-ever. - Not even enough to give a reply to my asking price. Tap-tap-tap. This thing on? Makes one wonder if one is on the Real Internet or just some sideline backwater version of the Internet :hmpf:

Space_Suitor 12-12-2017 03:02 AM

Re: Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
1 Attachment(s)
[QUOTE=bumpdraft;2261146]You donít seriously have a Vision, do you?
Rumor has it that the shaft drive was in cooperation with Porsche.
I have a Ď83 Vision for sale.
It has not been started in a long time, but it is in good shape and could always be some serious parts. Iím in Meshegan, so shipping is as far as possible.
I tried to sell it to the owner of the Vision website, but he was not interested what-so-ever. - Not even enough to give a reply to my asking price. Tap-tap-tap. This thing on? Makes one wonder if one is on the Real Internet or just some sideline backwater version of the Internet :hmpf:[/QUOTE]

Yah buddy, I know what you mean. It's real easy to get lost in the spam-shuffle, unless you've got something folks REALLY want. :ghost:

Mine's an 82, and they can be tough to find parts for being that they only made them those 2 years. This is the only bike I've ever owned. The shaft drive cannot be beaten, I would never buy anything else. The water-cooled V-twin with down-draft carbs was pioneering technology of its' time. The YICS system was their take on a theory developed by Honda in attempt to meet emissions regulations of the day by re-circulating exhaust fumes,.........yes, in 6 years I have run the gamut on this bike, lots of hard miles. She is laid up sick right now, and every time I touch her the problems just get worse. Water pump, starter motor, ...got 'em apart, still can't seem to fix them. Really wasn't coming here to complain but yeah, I have more sick horses than I can afford to ride, hombre. Don't have the heart to shoot 'em. :sneeze:

bumpdraft 12-12-2017 10:56 AM

Re: Spaceman's BYOB-DOHC Rebuild Partythread
 
^Very nice^ :cool:
Mineís a 1982 also. My mistake. I will eventually get it in running shape, but Iíd rather sell it....all...no parting it out.
[url]https://m.imgur.com/a/nV3aS[/url]
[url]https://m.imgur.com/a/TSSru[/url]


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:23 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.