Coil pack bad?

[AquaWolf]

Okay, I lost 2/3 on my 2.2. I need to know how I check the coils on this thing. I took the modual off and seen it has 4 pins between the coil casette and the modual. Anyone know?

[IMkenNY]

This should help, Id bet its your ICM (ignition control module). If your over 50,000 throw in some new plugs as well



TSB infoSubject: SES Light and Severe Engine Misfire on Cylinder 1 and 4 or Cylinders 2 and 3 Due to a Repeat Ignition Module Concern - keywords ICM miss no P0300 P0301 P0302 P0303 P0304 plug spark #PIP3433B - (10/20/2005)



Models:
2003-2006 Saturn Ion

2004-2005 Saturn L Series

2002-2006 Saturn Vue

with 2.2L Engine (VIN D or F - RPO L61)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.

Condition/Concern:
Some customers may comment on a severe engine misfire and a SES Light. Upon inspection, DTCs P0300 - P0304 may be found due to misfires on cylinders 1 and 4 or cylinders 2 and 3.

Recommendation/Instructions:
If ICM (ignition control module) replacement temporarily corrected the above issue only to have the same concern return again, perform the SI diagnostics. If the SI diagnostics lead to ICM replacement again, something may have damaged the ICM causing the vehicle to return with the same concern again. If it appears that something has damaged the ICM, replace the ICM as directed by SI, ensure that the ICM ground is clean and tight, and replace all of the spark plugs to possibly prevent ICM damage again.

If the SI diagnostics do not isolate a cause for the above concern due to the intermittent nature, inspect circuits 406 (IC Control for 2/3 Coil) and 423 (IC Control for 1/4 Coil) for an intermittent short to ground. Depending on the model, this may occur on the AC lines near the AC compressor, on the transmission mount, or on the transmission lines where they enter the transmission. If no shorts are found, inspect the ignition control module ground to ensure that it is clean and tight.

[AquaWolf]

Thanks, dude.

I'm going to guess this isn't a recall? If they a TSB out for it, does that mean it gets replaced under warranty or whatever it is for a recall? A new coil piece costs about $135 and this is cash I just do not have.

[Bigdaddy94sc2]

Thanks, dude.

I'm going to guess this isn't a recall? If they a TSB out for it, does that mean it gets replaced under warranty or whatever it is for a recall? A new coil piece costs about $135 and this is cash I just do not have.


No.

Recall = replaced parts no matter what mileage or age

TSB = Technicians reference to fix uncommon problems.

More than likely it is an ICM, but coils are a possibility as well, since 2&3 are paired.

[AquaWolf]

Well, that sucks. It seems to been happening to all ECOtec engines since like 2000. And you'd think it'd be a recall. Seeing your sig, I'll ask you. When I replace the ICM, would it be wise to run a ground wire from the top of the ICM to a chassis/battery ground? It seems to be that when this thing goes out, it's from a bad ground.

[Bigdaddy94sc2]

Well, that sucks. It seems to been happening to all ECOtec engines since like 2000. And you'd think it'd be a recall. Seeing your sig, I'll ask you. When I replace the ICM, would it be wise to run a ground wire from the top of the ICM to a chassis/battery ground? It seems to be that when this thing goes out, it's from a bad ground.


A good ground, run right, will not hurt anything, not sure if it will really help though. Never thought to try. Let us know if it helps. It isnt as much of a problem in the 04+ vehicles, those are included years for suggestion. 01- 02-03 had some issues with it, and they issued a recall to replace them all with updated parts. This corrected most of the concerns.

[AquaWolf]

Now, is that Year Model 04 and up, or made in 04 and up? I've been told by a few other people that it's the ICM that went bad. But since I can't drive this car anywhere, I can't have it tested. Maybe I should get a crank trigger wheel and dist for it instead?

[AquaWolf]

Well, the wire did nothing to help. But I'm going to keep the extra ground in when I get around to replacing the part anyway as a safe guard in case it is from a faulty ground somewhere.

[IMkenNY]

The ground ground only prevents a new ICM from failing again.

The crank position sensor failure is very rare and would affect all cylinders

I highly recommend the ICM (Ignition Control Module)

[AquaWolf]

The ground ground only prevents a new ICM from failing again.

The crank position sensor failure is very rare and would affect all cylinders

I highly recommend the ICM (Ignition Control Module)

Well, see.. That's what's wrong. GM designed this with no cam OR crank position censors. There's a page somewhere that explains what they did, I just forget where. Do a dogpile search on 2/3 misfire ECOtec to find it.

[fdryer]

I believe you are incorrect as there must be a crank position sensor (CPS) in order for the ICM to work. Its a precision sensing device for input to the ICM in order for timing the spark pulses. As pointed out before, without this CPS signal there won't be any spark taking place on any plug.

Could there be some severe corrosion with the wiring harness connectors to the ICM on both sides of this cable?

[AquaWolf]

"This combustion chamber detective uses ignition signatures to deduce engine phasing and cam position. We'll show you how it gathers the clues."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3828/is_200411/ai_n9469461

A good read.

[AquaWolf]

Okay, if I'm getting this right, if my crank sensor went out, all 4 shouldn't fire, but I have 2 working cylinders. But, if the ICM is booty, then that could trigger what's happening with my engine, yet, a dead coil could be doing the same thing as well. I'm getting a coil today and I'll let you guys know what happens. Thanks for all the input!

[fdryer]

"This combustion chamber detective uses ignition signatures to deduce engine phasing and cam position. We'll show you how it gathers the clues."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3828/is_200411/ai_n9469461

A good read.

From page 3 of the link;
PCM Logic

"This system utilizes a variable-reluctance CKP sensor mounted in the engine block near the integral crankshaft target wheel. The crankshaft has seven machined target notches, six of which are evenly spaced. The seventh crank notch is positioned about 55° ATDC of cylinders 1 and 4 and is used by the PCM as a sync pulse."

Unless you're going to undergraduate school in electrical engineering, specializing in automotive electronics, all that information won't do "squat" in everyday troubleshooting. For your information if you don't already know this, CKP is the technical abbreviation for the crank position sensor (CPS) as we know it. The letter 'K' is probably the German alphabet abbreviation for 'position' since, if I'm not mistaken, Robert Bosch owns the world wide rights to electronic fuel injection and engine management systems which is a German invention. I may be out on a limb stating this but I have many service manuals that are re-prints from ECA-Electrocomm, a Siemens subsidiary that uses german terms without English anywhere in the electrical schematics. Rather than translate and print working manuals the German technical terms are left in place for us to interpret insofar as signal flow into and out of circuit boards. I see this has transferred to Saturn's service manuals also but without the complex technical explanations, just a brief working description that will serve the general population in service bays throughout the country. Take CMP, also known as the cam position sensor yet uses 'M' in the abbreviation. Perhaps by leaving the abbreviations in German cam position sensor won't be confused with crank position sensor if we were to abbreviate it in English, CPS or CPS?

Back to our main program...............................determining the cause of a two-cylinder misfire.

[IMkenNY]

I doubt you can wait a week but this might make a nice spare:


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2-2L-ECOTEC-IGNITION-CONTROL-MODULE-ICM-AND-COILS-GM_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33691QQihZ006QQitemZ 160082591041QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[AquaWolf]

Yeah, too bad that still has 4 days left on it. The coils didn't fix the problem. So I'm going to guess it was that little module on there now. Well, lets order that and see what happens.

[AquaWolf]

Just to keep things updated, I replaced the Ign. module and it now runs great. And now I have an extra set of coils that can't be returned too. heh

[Bigdaddy94sc2]

Now be ready for needing a new cat possibly. Dont be surprised to see a code p0420 pop up within the next tank or 2 of gas.....

[AquaWolf]

If that happens, I'm gonna make a O2 sim for that one. I'm not burning that much cash on something like that. As long as it's not plugged up, I'm good. I've already found a spot where I have to patch a hole in my exhaust pipe where the weld wasn't good. But, I think I'm gonna cut it up and redo it with better tubing and different tips.

[Bigdaddy94sc2]

How many miles you have on it? under 80k and the code pops up, replaced under warranty.

[AquaWolf]

Well, I just filled up on gas and my odo had a reading of 76499 on it. And so far, no SES light came on.

Edit: Hells yeah! I own page 2!!