GOOD Greenline! (yes, really)

[POLYMER-PANELS]

Seems to be a lot of trying to 'burst the bubble' of new and prospective VUE Greenline owners...May I offer a more positive view?
I own a VUE RL (2006) but my brother just bought a VUE Greenline (2007)...He lives in Peterborough, a city a little over an hour's drive from Toronto, where he works...therefore, he COMMUTES every day in the new Greenline...at the first, during 'break-in' he was not getting much better mileage than the regular 4 cyllinder VUE is supposed to get - but two things have happened:
1) the engine has 'loosened up' considerably
2) he has gotten accustomed to the hybrid 'cycle' (very important, if you are to get the best out of a hybrid - you have to learn to understand the way it works and adjust your driving accordingly - to get the best efficiency...
He is now getting phenomenal mileage (especially versus MY Honda-powered Redline!)...and, the thing has quite a 'kick' when you tromp the accellerator (yes, I know that WOT is NOT what hybrid's are for - but when the electric motor/alternator kicks in to aid the gas motor, it's pretty quick!)
I am not absolutely convinced that the combination generator(alternator)/starter motor was the absolute best way to make the hybrid, but hey, it's SIMPLE and it DOES WORK...
I have driven it, and it does take a bit of getting used to, especially with auto matic motor stop and start...but it DOES work...!
So, stop SLAGGING the thing...we on on the cusp of lots of exciting developments vis-a-vis hybrids...let's applaud GM and Saturn for giving it a whirl...after all, we are supposed to be in the same Saturn family, are we not? (unless our forum has been infiltrated by the likes of Toyota/Nissan/Hyundai folks, that is!)...
Don't we all love a conspiracy...?
I also agree with our administrator, Charlie, that posts that contain serious, non-constructive 'slagging' should be wiped...and that posting privileges be denied to such 'posters'...sure, this is the good, old USA (actually, Canada in my case) where freedom of speech is supposed to reign suppreme...but, that doesn't mean we can hammer each other at will...that's NOT what it's all about...
thanks for listening...sorry if this ended up as a rant on a soapbox!
B. Wallace / Toronto Redline Club

[BadGL]

Well good for him. If you read the thread nobody doubts the ability of the GL to deliver decent mileage on one hour commutes, and the 2.4L is acknowledged as a decent unit, but the fact is the hybrid drive doesn't really do anything much on long highway commutes. So what does he get on a true city circuit - lots of start/stop, 5 miles? That's the salient point.

Of course he'll get decent mileage with a commute like that, probably 28+ I would guess from what we've seen here and I've personlly experienced.

Hardly slagging - the facts are it does 18-21 or so real city. Fairly well demonstrated here. Sorry if that offends you - it's a fact, and I have every gas receipt available, that nobody as been able to refute, not an opinion. The GL does not do 27 MPG or close on city and if you buy that, I suggest you go and buy one to find out the hard way as I did.

If you would like to post something helpful, please provide details of what your brother is experiencing, factual MPG's, commute details, driving style and so on.

Free speech is exercised here, but so is independent thinking. The latter goes a long way towards not allowing corporations to deliver sub-standard products to market. GM forgot this in the 70's and the Japanese were more than happy to fill the void with quality products that delivered what they claimed to do. The GL does not deliver under true city conditions, exactly where a hybrid is meant to perform better than a conventional engine.

Removing posts to change the flavor of a thread doesn't help the undecided get an independent review, and if you would prefer that censorship prevail, that would be a sad day for us all.

If you want to be helpful, ask your brother to post his details on Greenhybrid, and share factual economy and actual commute details here. Everything you mention is purely anecdotal

[POLYMER-PANELS]

Hi...
Yes, I understand that <<the hybrid drive doesn't really do anything much on long highway commutes. So what does he get on a true city circuit - lots of start/stop, 5 miles?>> but, I've DONE the commute with him, and beleive me, on a lot of that commute IS stop and start on plugged freeways...
It seems that you are very angry about your own experience with the GL...my post was to present another view...my brother's former car was a Camry SE/ 4 cyllinder / 5 speed, (curb weight 3,450 lbs.) and if he notices a big improvement in mileage from that, in his new the Greenline - (a vehicle that weighs close to the Camry at 3,420 lbs) and an automatic, to boot - then my perception would be that the GL DOES do well...
Sure, I have not posted 'actual' numbers, but my point was based on both HIS experience of buying fuel for the last 3 months relative to the same time perioid in the previous year with the Camry (and on the same commute)...and MY experience, having 'felt' what it was like to drive on that same route...
It wasn't that bad...and even the motor 'start/stop' thing in heavy stop and go traffic on the freeway, while disconcerting at the beginning, is something one can get used to...
Give it a chance!

[mellissam]

....
Free speech is exercised here, but so is independent thinking. ...... Everything you mention is purely anecdotal

Ha! Well, as an independent thinker (last time I checked), my anecdotal impressions are that you want to use this board as your personal soapbox…to express your angst at not getting the EPA….and you have done so with 100+ posts on one thread!!…..Polymer Panels comes along, and you slag him for one post!! Censorship doesn’t help…. I agree, but neither does spamming the board…get my drift? In essence you have set yourself up as a caricature of sore and lonely soul who doesn’t know when to stop…..Your impression of the GL no longer matter….If you had come onboard with a legit username, and expressed disappointment 'objectively', folks might listen, but you set yourself up as a mouthpiece that doesn’t know when to stop…..JMHO
Anecdotally speaking….

[POLYMER-PANELS]

Oh, and I fully agree with you on GM's SUBSTANDARD offerings in the last two decades...only NOW is GM beginning to show signs of inventive and innovative approaches to the high cost of fuel and the environment...however (and here I agree with you again)...they did not go far enough with the GL...
Nevertheless, if GM/Saturn is as cash-strapped as they say (and I believe that it's true) and they STILL managed to come out with the GL...we have to try to see the bright side...
If GM doesn't continue development of hybrids, and stagnates on their first attempts (like the GL), I will be very disappointed...
On the other side of the coin - hybrids like the Prius, while touted as industry leading approaches to the genre, are sold at far less than the cost of production - as 'cameo' vehicles for Toyota - and they should be seen as just as much a 'PR' effort as technological tours-de-force...are they REALLY going to recycle all those proprietary lead-acid battery packs in Priuses?...and, is the virtually unrepairable technology really better than the innovative and simple approach in the GL? Moot point. Nobody is right. Nobody is wrong. Yet.
Lastly, I remember that my first Fiero, a 1985 SE V6 - which had innovative space-frame construction - was not really 'market ready' either...you might recall the engine fires in the Iron Duke powered ones...However, by the time they got around to producing the 1987/8 GT, they were vastly better...after having learned a lot...I still drive an '87 GT, by the way...
Saturn no doubt learned a little from these earlier efforts at plastic panelling on a vehicle...
But, bottom line? The first examples of any new design or innovative technology rarely meet the expectations...you should consider yourself, at the least, a pioneer...sorry if I got on your case a little too hard...I guess you were not slagging the GL, just irritated that it isn't quite right, yet...
B

[BadGL]

Inappropriate comment deleted by administrator.

B - I meant my question re posting factual data. It would be helpful to those of us experiencing terrible fuel economy.

[Charlie]

BadGL - Please don't start cross-posting about your VUE GL experience on every "good" hybrid VUE post. There's already a very extensive and thorough post about your experience. Also, please remember that rude posts ARE inappropriate and WILL be deleted whenever I come across them. Repeat offenders will have their forum accounts suspended.

POLYMER-PANELS - I'm glad to hear about VUE GL owners who are happy with their purchase. Thanks for the kudos!

Charlie

[BadGL]

Why did you remove my posts Charlie? Negative comments about the product seem unacceptable here? Melissa's rudeness is fine as long as it's in support of a poor product and based on no factual information? Should you choose to suspend my account for telling the truth then so be it. You will be doing many a disservice when they discover the reality of the city fuel economy and will fill the void.

[mellissam]

Why did you remove my posts Charlie? Negative comments about the product seem unacceptable here? Melissa's rudeness is fine as long as it's in support of a poor product and based on no factual information? Should you choose to suspend my account for telling the truth then so be it. You will be doing many a disservice when they discover the reality of the city fuel economy and will fill the void.


Well, the reality is that I got a post removed...it happens. Move on. :D The moderator's job is to remove posts not deemed appropriate, or in your case, modify them. Are you going to start a thread on that? LOL

[nakman]

[QUOTE=BadGL;977072]Well good for him. If you read the thread nobody doubts the ability of the GL to deliver decent mileage on one hour commutes, and the 2.4L is acknowledged as a decent unit, but the fact is the hybrid drive doesn't really do anything much on long highway commutes. So what does he get on a true city circuit - lots of start/stop, 5 miles? That's the salient point.

Of course he'll get decent mileage with a commute like that, probably 28+ I would guess from what we've seen here and I've personlly experienced.

Hardly slagging - the facts are it does 18-21 or so real city. Fairly well demonstrated here. Sorry if that offends you - it's a fact, and I have every gas receipt available, that nobody as been able to refute, not an opinion. The GL does not do 27 MPG or close on city and if you buy that, I suggest you go and buy one to find out the hard way as I did.

I guess I'm having a hard time getting my head around purchasing a Hybrid when the majority of your driving would be small city trips? If the intent is to conserve fuel with the purchase of a Hybrid, then wouldn't public transit for those small inter-city trips be something to consider? With the majority of your driving being is in these conditions, even with a H2 or H3, the annual cost of fuel would be minimal. Maybe I'm missing something. Badgl, your bone of contention seems to be on one aspect of city driving your experiencing and expect it to compare with the EPA rating.

BTW, It's nice to have a different thread exploring the positive aspects of owning a GL.

Not bagging on Badgl either. The other thread has generated some meaningful debate and info.

[POLYMER-PANELS]

I guess this will be my last 'kick at the can'...but, really, BadGL...is my recounting of my brother's (and my first hand drive) of his GL really...
<<based on no factual information>>? I think his experiences vis-a-vis the same three months of fuel costs from the preceding year, with his nearly the same weight Camry, tells the tale...sure, that is anecdotal <<definition: a single case report not yet substantiated by studies using large numbers of people>> - but I have no reason to disbelieve that he has seen a substantial increase in his fuel economy based on comparing his own recordes from October/November/December 2006 with the previous year...
I guess <<anecdotal>> does refer to opinions, by definition...and you have yours, and I have mine...but we should not get nasty with each other...as I say, this will be my last post in this thread - perhaps mercifully a thread about the Greenline will be started fresh...so that everyone here that sounds like they have personal agendas will not have opportunities to 'run off at the keyboard'...I tend to be verbose, and that is my achilles heel...and for that I am sorry. I hope to see you again on another thread...
B

[BadGL]

Suburban northern California has no public transit to speak of - it's actually not possible to get across town other than driving. The point of hybrids is good city, and the GL does not deliver as promised. Highway is fine, as is my original comment that I think it's a fine engine (see, I do say positive things) but it seems the hybrid drive does nothing significant to help there.

Read it quick as this negative comment is probably going to be removed even though you asked as I'm responding to a similar question in another thread which seems verboten.

[BadGL]

Hey B - check the Greenhybrid site. You'll see long commutes = good MPG, short city = bad MPG. It's about as good as you'll get for fact based numbers. Last post from me on this thread also.

Please do get your brother to record his MPG over there. It really would help.

[Charlie]

Why did you remove my posts Charlie? Negative comments about the product seem unacceptable here?Let me clarify. Negative comments about Saturn are fine as long as they are constructive and you're not rehashing the same issue over and over in multiple threads. Rude posts (and any posts related to those posts) WILL be deleted whenever I come across them.

Hope that helps explain things...
Charlie

[nakman]

BadGL - Please don't start cross-posting about your VUE GL experience on every "good" hybrid VUE post. There's already a very extensive and thorough post about your experience. Also, please remember that rude posts ARE inappropriate and WILL be deleted whenever I come across them. Repeat offenders will have their forum accounts suspended.

POLYMER-PANELS - I'm glad to hear about VUE GL owners who are happy with their purchase. Thanks for the kudos!

Charlie


After seeing Charlie's post, I realized I was only contributing to the issue. Will keep the comments relating the title thread. ;)

[plane]

We have had our Greenline for nearly 3 weeks now.
The first partial tank, and I'm not sure the dealer filled it to the top, was 21 mpg on mostly city.
The first full tank that we can 100% verify was a little over 23 mpg in mostly hilly, stop and go, moderately cold weather city driving.

Not bad for starters, but really hoping that we will beat EPA estimates when the weather warms up and the engine is fully broken in.

[Xyrus]

Well good for him. If you read the thread nobody doubts the ability of the GL to deliver decent mileage on one hour commutes, and the 2.4L is acknowledged as a decent unit, but the fact is the hybrid drive doesn't really do anything much on long highway commutes.

That is your view/opinion/experience. I live in hilly terrain, and the additional power from the electric assist is enough to maintain speed on inclines, or give just enough boost to maintain speeds at higher velocities (countering drag).

I've taken my VUE to more moutainous areas to the north here in NH (I-89) and have gotten substatially better mileage with the VUE GL than with my '03 VUE.


So what does he get on a true city circuit - lots of start/stop, 5 miles? That's the salient point.

It is your point, not that of the average commuter. :rolleyes:

Most people do not have a 5 mile commute at the heart of a busy city with 12 stop-lights between point A and point B. This has been discussed ad nauseum in the other thread, where it has been pointed out repeatedly that.

1. The short commute mean the ICE is operating at it's most inefficient for most of the trip.

2. The hybrid drive system also would not kick in until a chunk of your commute was over.

3. The constant starting and stopping at lights, especially with auto-stop not kicking in, is absolutely destructive to MPG.

4. With the frequency of lights, you rarely get any cruising in which is another MPG hit.

5. You have an ethanol content of 19% in your fuel, depriving you of yet more performance.

The average commute according to the last national census is 27 minutes/13 miles. Your commute isn't even within one standard deviation.

For some reason that I can't fathom, you acknowlege all of this and still seem to act like the car is at fault. IT'S NOT THE CAR.:ugh:


Hardly slagging - the facts are it does 18-21 or so real city. Fairly well demonstrated here. Sorry if that offends you - it's a fact, and I have every gas receipt available, that nobody as been able to refute, not an opinion. The GL does not do 27 MPG or close on city and if you buy that, I suggest you go and buy one to find out the hard way as I did.

Let me correct you.

Your commute is a statistical outlier. Typically, this means your data point (in this case, your commute) is outside of one standard deviation from the average.

Your "fact" is based on a set of observations from a single vehicle (yours) on a commute that is outside of the 68th percentile stradling the mean.

That's not a fact, that is an outlier. It's not fairly well demonstrated. It's been fairly well explained, but the only demonstration has been by you in your vehicle on your commute.:no:

If I were to use the same logic, I could boast something equally preposterous. For example, I could say it's a fact that the VUE's average is 29 MPG. I keep all my gas receipts (they're a write off) and track my mileage.

Of course, that statement is just as ludicrous as yours since my commute is also a statistical outlier. Therefore, deriving any meaningful "fact" is not only pointless, but absurd as well.:ugh:


Free speech is exercised here, but so is independent thinking. The latter goes a long way towards not allowing corporations to deliver sub-standard products to market. GM forgot this in the 70's and the Japanese were more than happy to fill the void with quality products that delivered what they claimed to do.

Nice ad hominem attack, but I'll skip that for the moment.


The GL does not deliver under true city conditions, exactly where a hybrid is meant to perform better than a conventional engine.


Correction, the GL does not deliver under YOUR commuting conditions. Which, again, has already been explained to you why this is the case.

The EPA has its tests. They may suck, but that is how they do the apples to apples comparison between vehicles. The farther you deviate from their test conditions, the less reliable the numbers become. As I've also stated several times, if I had your commute I would not have bought the VUE GL because, having done the research, would have quickly concluded that the commute would not have yielded anywhere near the EPA city mileage.


Removing posts to change the flavor of a thread doesn't help the undecided get an independent review, and if you would prefer that censorship prevail, that would be a sad day for us all.


BadGL, please. I've been helpful. I've made suggestions. I've asked questions. I've given answers. I've done analysis. At every step of the way I've tried to be courteous.

But you just don't seem to get it. You don't. Despite all the math and engineering explanations for some reason you just can't get it into your head that YOUR COMMUTE IS NOT THE NORM. Your commute would have the same effect on any similar class vehicle. Even smaller cars would not reach their city EPA.

Yes, the EPA tests are inaccurate. Yes, that can be misleading. We all know this. We all agree on this. But that doesn't excuse the fact that you willfully ignore every fact, figure, and piece of data that has been used to show you WHY YOU AREN"T GETTING EPA NUMBERS.:upset:

You don't see me with a thread going on and on about how my VUE GL is god's gift to hybrids just because right now my MPG is exceeding 90% of the people reporting on GH for a Ford Escape. I know why this is. I acknowledge why my fuel economy is good. I also am fully aware that it's my commute and driving style that contribute to this.

I don't go around assuming that everyone else is a blathering idiot who doesn't know how to drive economically just because they can't hit my numbers.


If you want to be helpful, ask your brother to post his details on Greenhybrid, and share factual economy and actual commute details here. Everything you mention is purely anecdotal

I have posted my MPG on GH. I've also described my route in great detail. To which you seem to shrug your shoulders and say "Well of course you're going to get great mileage with THAT commute!". To which I've also responded that I'm getting 6-8 MPG better than my '03 VUE, which you seem to dismiss.

The one true fact for all vehicles (including this one) is this:

MILEAGE MAY VARY

This is on every single EPA sticker. This means: DO YOUR REASEARCH. Fact check, cross reference. If your unsure, don't buy the vehicle. Wait a few months. See what happens.

Your experience is a single vehicle on a single commute in a single city. My experience is a single vehicle on a single commute across a number of towns and small cities. In neither case, can anything worthwhile be drawn about these two data points other than in your particular instance your seeing performance less than what you were hoping (which was unrealistic to begin with) and in my instance I'm seeing better mileage than what I expected. That's it.

Now if you get get 1000 GL owners to back up the same numbers you're seeing from a statistically random sample, then you have something.

Other than that, the only things I can say for sure is that you refuse to listen to anything anyone says contrary to your experience and that you like digging up dead horses just to beat them some more.:rolleyes:

Sorry about that folks. :(

I've spent a lot of time and effort trying to explain why BadGL isn't hitting anywhere close to the EPA numbers. I guess there is really no point trying to explain this anymore. BadGL is convinced he/she/it is right and there is nothing under (your magical sky wizard of choice) that will convince him/her/it otherwise. Might as well be arguing politics.

Now back onto topic....

I've got nothing but good things to say about the GL. I've been getting good gas mileage and have no complaints. I'll have a new commute here in the near future so I'm eager to see if the numbers hold up. My current commute:

9 Miles rural, speed ~40 mph, 2 stops possible
2 Miles city, speed 30-40 mph, 7 stops possible
10 Miles freeway, speed 65-70, 0 stops possible
1-2 Miles city, 1-3 stops depending on arrival time

Overall MPG average for 5 tanks: 29.1 MPG :yes:

Note that this commute is a "nice" commute for mileage for the most part. I do live in a hilly area but there is just enough oomph from the BAS to keep the green dashboard troll happy most of the time. ;)

~X~

~X~

[jdmessner]

Thta's great news! Really. Someone is finally happy with the performance of their Hybrid. (finally)

BUT I'd really like to know what his PHENOMENAL mileage is for his hour long commute.

Earlier, PolymerPanels was comparing the GL to a Toyota Camry 5 speed. But still, he did not post what the observed milage was!

I want to know what his brother's GL is getting right now and what his brother's Camry was getting during the same commute. I'll bet it's not all that much better, if any at all. (maybe 2-3mpg better)

The funny thing is Polymer's brother could have bought an Ion for 1/2 the price of the GL and gotten nearly the same economic performance without the hefty price tag (and gotten an automatic to boot!)

The consensus here seems to be that the GL delivers GOOD gas milage on the highway (about what you'd expect from the Vue 4cylinder 5 speed FWD) but LOUSY gas milage on short city commutes. Still, I want to know what the milage is that the guy is getting all excited about.

In comparison to Xyrus' commute mine is:

0.5 miles neighborhood @ 25mph. 2 stops
1.7 miles light neighborhood,mixed retail @ 35mph. 5 stops
16.5 miles highway @ 60mph
At the top of GreenTree Hill, it all comes to a dead stop and crawls into town the last 2 miles. Average speed is 10mph
Exit highway, 1.3 miles dense city traffic. 8 stops @ 20mph.
Arrive at office.
Average daily MPG 26.99 Not bad for a non-hybrid AWD Honda CR-V.......

[spencerb]

Hardly slagging - the facts are it does 18-21 or so real city. Fairly well demonstrated here. Sorry if that offends you - it's a fact, and I have every gas receipt available, that nobody as been able to refute, not an opinion. The GL does not do 27 MPG or close on city and if you buy that, I suggest you go and buy one to find out the hard way as I did.

It depends on what you consider "real city." There are cities with stoplights at every corner, and there are some without any at all. Some have fast expressway sections, some don't have speed limits over 35. In some cities, 5 miles won't get you anywhere, and in others 5 miles will take you anywhere you need to go.

I'm sure that every carmaker tunes their cars not for actual driving situations, but for the epa test. It's like teachers teaching kids information for the standardized tests, and not what they actually need to know. It's the window sticker that has the biggest impact on buying decisions, and every car company knows that. Hopefully things will change with the new tests in 08.

Also take a close look at the window sticker. There is a range of mileage listed. I bet you fall in that range somewhere.

[mellissam]

The funny thing is Polymer's brother could have bought an Ion for 1/2 the price of the GL and gotten nearly the same economic performance without the hefty price tag (and gotten an automatic to boot!)

......

Why does everybody do that? Compare apples to cantelopes? Maybe the cargo space, interior room, the elevated seating position, the ability to tread where an ION can't.....are some of the possibilities??? :)
I'm miffed they couldn't build it for another year (with polymer), with a real trip gauge computer instead of the eco gauge....that would drive me nuts...LOL
I bet if they did, it would teach folks how to become better GL drivers (e.g. fuel economy) than what they have now.... At any rate, I bet we will se better mileage numbers as folks adapt....

[bmwms]

[QUOTE=jdmessner;977350]Thta's great news! Really. Someone is finally happy with the performance of their Hybrid. (finally)



I've posted in other threads that I'm extremely happy with my Vue GL. I went from a 19 mpg daily commute in my Honda Pilot to 28 mpg with my Vue GL.

We all get it. BadGL and JD hate the Vue GL. Their complaint needs to be with the EPA, not the auto manu. I'm not sure why they don't understand that.

[SaturnSales]

Saturn uses the EPA numbers to market their product - it's a sales point they revel in making - don't believe me - go to a Saturn dealer this weekend and see what they say - and see what feature they draw your attention to. Excusing this as being an EPA problem and saying take it up with them, is simply being apologist and accepting less than reasonably acceptable. Are our expectations that low? The 18+ we've got on a suburban commute of about 5 miles is a far cry from the 27 MPG claimed.

As I have said before in the other thread... 1. SATURN AND IT'S DEALERS ARE REQUIRED BY LAW TO USE THE EPA ESTIMATES IN THEIR MARKETING
2. Your salesman doesn't make a paycheck if he doesn't make a sale, so he will be happy to shout it from the top of the dealership that the vehicle gets 27/32. (S)He won't be making very many sales if he's telling customers that the vehicle will perform worse than expected. And while the 27/32 are the only solid numbers we can quote, don't be suprised to hear someone say that you MAY be able to do better... BTW wasn't the dealership able to get 36MPG in YOUR vehicle?


Where is there a single post, regardless of conditions, driving style, ethanol content, or anything else that comes close to that for a real suburban commute? There isn't any - on the contrary there's quite a number of post that support the 20 +/-

Yes as Melissa has pointed out... you have posted it over 100 times yourself.

Highway over a decent distance I can get about 28. I've said that the Saturn should be really rated 20/28.

Again... odd that the dealership could get 36MPG in your vehicle but the best you can do is 28... are you sure it's not the person behind the wheel?


Sure it's my personal experience as I don't have a fleet - never claimed otherwise - but considering Saturn say there's nothing wrong with this one then it's typical for the GL.
Xyrus has tried to explain to you several times, using very good information that the MAIN problem is your commute... and I'm sorry but GM (nor any other company) is not going to spend the man hours to write software specifically for your commute, or train the techs in the dealerships to write software, as has been suggested on the other thread. Sorry but that isn't going to happen.

So criticize away - debate my choice of name, call me whatever you want but at the end of the day it's just a bulletin board.
Yes posting on here is just a bulletin board.... but selling Saturn's is my livelyhood... yes I know you will write me off as just a corporate man towing the corporate line, but I really do TRY to be helpful... I am NOT paid to come on here (unless someone comes in and buys a car from me... anyone in oregon???? ;) ) I do it for product knowlege, and to be helpful with the knowlege that I have.

I just hope that someone like me, foolishly expecting better city fuel economy, has their expectations set as a result of my posts. If you want to get somewhere close to 27 city, don't buy a Greenline - put the extra money in a savings account and subsidise your gas purchase for the v6.

As Xyrus has said many, many times... just don't buy a greenline with YOUR particular commute. Do a little research and pick the vehicle that best suits your needs. I believe with your commute even a 3cyl Geo Metro XFI would be below the EPA estimate of 53/58...

[BobbyP]

Last week on Autoline Detroit the host John McElroy made some very good comments about the VUE GL. He said he was able to get mileage as good or better than most true hybrids. His guest made a comment that the true hybrids do better in the city, and the VUE GL does better on the highway. The same points that were made on this forum.

Possibly a disclaimer should be posted about any hybrid that your particular driving routine may not give you EPA mileage results.

[BadGL]

So if someone comes in and says, what's the real MPG's for a real suburban city commute of 5 miles, what will you say?

Now you know, will you dodge the question and misdirect and hide behind EPA, or will you say 20 +/- since nobody has reported anything more that about 22MPH (it's not just my posts - see Greenhybrid, see other people here)?

If the latter then it would seem this discussion was not a waste of time, and someone would make an educated purchase not be misled like us.

And thank you for perpetuating my comments that Charlie removed - they weren't that off topic were they?

[SaturnSales]

So if someone comes in and says, what's the real MPG's for a real suburban city commute of 5 miles, what will you say?

Now you know, will you dodge the question and misdirect and hide behind EPA, or will you say 20 +/- since nobody has reported anything more that about 22MPH (it's not just my posts - see Greenhybrid, see other people here)?

If the latter then it would seem this discussion was not a waste of time, and someone would make an educated purchase not be misled like us.

And thank you for perpetuating my comments that Charlie removed - they weren't that off topic were they?

Again I am required by law to use the EPA numbers.... I can say your experience MAY vary, I can say it is possible to get better than the EPA estimates, I can say it's possible to do worse.... but if you ask me what you will get in the city I would say it would be about 27.... again I am not going to try to lose the sale, I am not going to tell you I don't want to sell you this vehicle. If I did you would probably think I was trying to turn you to a different vehicle because it has more profit in it.

[jdmessner]

[QUOTE=jdmessner;977350]Thta's great news! Really. Someone is finally happy with the performance of their Hybrid. (finally)



I've posted in other threads that I'm extremely happy with my Vue GL. I went from a 19 mpg daily commute in my Honda Pilot to 28 mpg with my Vue GL.

We all get it. BadGL and JD hate the Vue GL. Their complaint needs to be with the EPA, not the auto manu. I'm not sure why they don't understand that.

BMW,

I have no beef with the performance of the GL. I have a beef with the hype surrounding hybrid technology.

As was posted before, you could have achieved the same performance and economy with one of SEVERAL non-hybrid small SUV's. You could have stayed with Saturn and actuall surpassed the GL in economy with a 4 cylinder 5 speed.

My point is hybrids are all HYPE. They solve NOTHING. They save NOTHING. The performance increase (if any at all) does not justify the higher price tag! So, you got a tax credit. Big deal. Your GL uses just as much fuel in a year as a Honda CRv, FWD Vue or a Ford Escape non-hybrid. It will continue to use just as much fuel to go the same distance over the next 5 years. Where you and evey other Hybrid Buyer is going to get SCREWED is when maintenance items start to pop up.

Take your tires: They are a special compound with a very high silica content. Silica lowers the rolling resistance of the tire but at the expense of long term durability. The 'Special' tires on the GL are going to wear out between 10-15,000 miles. After that, its out of your pocket to replace them. You can put on some budget tires from Sam's club if you want, but your fuel economy will suffer because of the harder rubber compounds. Isn't fuel economy why you got suckered into buying it in the first place?

You also have to consider your battery pack, high-capacity alternator and regenerative brakes into the maintenance question. Are they covered by the GM warranty?

You may believe you're saving a few bucks a year on gas, but when stuff begins to wear out, watch out! You're in for some serious sticker shock!

All that time, my son's 8 year old Accord will still get better overall fuel economy that your GL ever could hope to get, with a signifigantly lower maintenance cost to boot.

Nothing against the GL. Hybrid technology doesn't deliver a thing.

[mellissam]

[QUOTE=bmwms;977965]
.......You also have to consider your battery pack, high-capacity alternator and regenerative brakes into the maintenance question. Are they covered by the GM warranty?........

Warranty?
Actually, I think it all has been raised to 5 year/100k (miles)....the website has wrong info.....??
IIRC - the BAS (battery pack, high-capacity alternator etc.) gets an 8 year warranty....

Pretty reasonable warranty if you ask me. :)

[SaturnSales]

[QUOTE=bmwms;977965]

You also have to consider your battery pack, high-capacity alternator and regenerative brakes into the maintenance question. Are they covered by the GM warranty?



All componets of the hybrid system are covered by a 8 year 100,000 mile warranty... including the belt.... the regenerative brakes are not some special sort of brake pad... regenerative braking is the process of the generator kicking into reverse and charging the battery, it's kind of like gearing down in a car with a manual transmission, it actually had nothing to do with the brakes, it slows the vehicle down because of an increased load on the engine. So since the regenerative brakes are part of the charging system, yes it is covered by the hybrid 8/100k warranty.... brake pads are not. So the answer to your question is yes they are covered for 8 years 100,000 miles.

[JoeVue07]

With the uncertainty of gas prices these days I decided to take the plunge and by a Vue Green Line. 27/32 sounded pretty impressive. I had been warned, and they sticker even stated that actual mileage would vary, but I was a bit surprised when the first tank turned in just under 20 mpg. I had heard that a new engine needed to break-in to start achieving better numbers, but after two more tanks fulls that turned in less then 20 mpg. 19.6 for those of you that are sticklers for actual figures, I decided to talk to my dealer. The service manager stated that the mileage "might get better." This was my first new car, and I expected the mpg rating to be a little less than the sticker, but not so dramatically less, so count me in with those that are dissapointed in the green line mpg performance.

[BadGL]

You may have noticed that's my experience...

Anyway, would you please post your figures on Greenhybrid (adding brief notes helps) so the real picture can emerge.

Many thanks

[jdmessner]

With the uncertainty of gas prices these days I decided to take the plunge and by a Vue Green Line. 27/32 sounded pretty impressive. I had been warned, and they sticker even stated that actual mileage would vary, but I was a bit surprised when the first tank turned in just under 20 mpg. I had heard that a new engine needed to break-in to start achieving better numbers, but after two more tanks fulls that turned in less then 20 mpg. 19.6 for those of you that are sticklers for actual figures, I decided to talk to my dealer. The service manager stated that the mileage "might get better." This was my first new car, and I expected the mpg rating to be a little less than the sticker, but not so dramatically less, so count me in with those that are dissapointed in the green line mpg performance.


Unfortunately, you got suckerd in to the hype and thought you were going to stick it to the oil company. The reality of the situation is quite different.

Complaints such as yours, specifically surrounding the otherwise disappointing economic performance fo hybrids are what forced the EPA to revise their testing standards. When the 2008 models roll out later this year, expect to see a 30% drop in the EPA estimated milage of the same model from it's 2007 ratings. The new testing standards will bring the estimates more in line with what you will actually see in everyday driving.

It must really burn your britches to know that an ion sedan with an automatic transmission would be getting you better fuel economy than your hybrid Vue, and you would have ann extra $8,000.00 in your pocket to boot!

[Vue GL Clev]

It must really burn your britches to know that an ion sedan with an automatic transmission would be getting you better fuel economy than your hybrid Vue, and you would have ann extra $8,000.00 in your pocket to boot!

This is a silly statement and compares apples and oranges. The Ion is a small sedan. A Vue is a small SUV. The Ion cannot tow my boat to the lake and the Vue can. You could just as easily say "Those silly Ion buyers - my motorscooter gets 80mpg and they could have saved $14,000!"

It's not the same vehicle!! Jeez...

[BobbyP]

When the 2008 models roll out later this year, expect to see a 30% drop in the EPA estimated milage of the same model from it's 2007 ratings. The new testing standards will bring the estimates more in line with what you will actually see in everyday driving.

The ratings will really plummet on the new 2008 VUE with the 4000 lb curb weight. That extra 500lbs will have mileage penalty.

IMO the current FWD V6 VUE is very close to the EPA 20/28. Maybe the city should have been 18 or 19, the highway can easily be higher from what I've seen.

[Vue GL Clev]

The ratings will really plummet on the new 2008 VUE with the 4000 lb curb weight. That extra 500lbs will have mileage penalty.

IMO the current FWD V6 VUE is very close to the EPA 20/28. Maybe the city should have been 18 or 19, the highway can easily be higher from what I've seen.

One thing that will help the 2008 GL Vue is that there will an enhancement over the 2007 model in hybrid technology. The 2008 will be a two-mode hybrid capable of electric-only operation, which the current GL is not. GM is promising a 45% improvement in mileage over the non-hybrids. The 2008 Vue GL drivers will also get a 3.6L V6 engine, vs. the current 2.4L V4. I wonder where it will end up mileage wise? Should help improve city performance. No word on cost.

http://www.saturn.com/aboutus2/news/press/index.jsp?storyID=117

[jdmessner]

This is a silly statement and compares apples and oranges. The Ion is a small sedan. A Vue is a small SUV. The Ion cannot tow my boat to the lake and the Vue can. You could just as easily say "Those silly Ion buyers - my motorscooter gets 80mpg and they could have saved $14,000!"

It's not the same vehicle!! Jeez...

If you'd bothered to pay attention to whom the post was addressed , you'd understand the reason for the response.

JoeVue07 purchased a Greenline based exclusively on it's estimated fuel economy. He is NOT getting anywhere NEAR the EPA estimated fuel economy. Neither is Bad GL. For that matter, very few if ANY hybrid owners come anywhere CLOSE to what the EPA esitmates say they should see.

As was addressed to JoeVue07, he could have purchased a signifigantly less expensive, non-hybrid Ion sedan and achived better economic performance than the Greenline.

As for you and your Greenline, VueGLClev, Just what kind of boat are you towing? The maximum towed weight for the Greenline is 1500 pounds. Unless it's a single Jetski or a paddleboat, you're probably overloaded........

[mellissam]

.....JoeVue07 purchased a Greenline based exclusively on it's estimated fuel economy.........

He doesn't say that. You keep comparing the VUE to the Ion....completely different uses for each. IMHO
If he was looking for vehicle solely based on mpg, a Prius or a tiny econo-box would be in order. :)

[jdmessner]

If you want to get technical, it's called a cost/benefit analysis.

Anyone who would step away from the hype and look at the available data would come to the same conclusion: Hybrids don't deliver.

VueGLClev bought a GL and is only getting ~24 mpg. It's better than the car they replaced was getting, but is really not all that great. Here's the analysis:
A 2007 CR-V LX AWD Vs. a 2007 Vue Greenline.
Economy: It's a toss up. Both the CRV and the Greenline are going to do around 20mpg city, 28mpg highway. Overall combined mileage of around 24.5.
Safety: CRV is a clear winner. The benefit of AWD, plus vehicle stability assist, ABS and traction control outweigh the FWD and ABS offering of the Vue GL.
MSRP: $22,395 for the CRV, $23,495 for the GL. Even with the $650.00 tax credit, the CRV is cheaper!

Now, that's an apples to apples comparison. Comperable small SUV to small SUV. You get more bang for the buck with the CRV. Thats a fact.....

Popular mechanics did a head to head comparison in 2004 of a Honda Civic vs. a Hybrid Honda Civic. The winner? The standard Civic. It got BETTER overall gas mileage and cost $4500.00 less than the Hybrid model.

Again, an apples to apples comparison.

I won't buy into the HYPE-brid hype. It doesn't deliver. They don't save any money in fuel vs. a comperable non-hybrid. The don't do anything to reduce our dependence on oil. They do nothing but make a few tree huggers feel less guilty about driving around town.

[mellissam]

A 2007 CR-V LX AWD Vs. a 2007 Vue Greenline.
Economy: It's a toss up. Both the CRV and the Greenline are going to do around 20mpg city, 28mpg highway. Overall combined mileage of around 24.5.
Safety: CRV is a clear winner. The benefit of AWD, plus vehicle stability assist, ABS and traction control outweigh the FWD and ABS offering of the Vue GL.
MSRP: $22,395 for the CRV, $23,495 for the GL. Even with the $650.00 tax credit, the CRV is cheaper!

......

Not even close! Where did you get your comparison prices (factor in dest. charges?)? In Canada, the CRV base (LX) is $27,700 (plus 1500 dest.) vs $29,060 (plus 1200 dest.)...Now that is a $1060 plus for the CRV, but the CRV has steel wheels and they want over $2500+ for them!! It is now plus $1500+ for the VUE. Factor in no onstar, the VUE has a 5 star rating by the way, CRV no telephone, it gets 10.2/7.3 litres/100km compared to 8.8/6.7 for the VUE... Both have ABS. The Vue has more hp/tq = 170/162 vs CRV 166/161. They both have the same towing capacity. The Vue wins hands down. Although, it depends on what your perceived notion is of reliability, of the two vehicles...and we all know what yours is....:D

edit: I also notice the CRV LX doesn't even have a centre console!! They nickle and dime you, unlike the GL...JMHO

[mellissam]

Not even close! Where did you get your comparison prices (factor in dest. charges?)? In Canada, the CRV base (LX) is $27,700 (plus 1500 dest.) vs $29,060 (plus 1200 dest.)...Now that is a $1060 plus for the CRV, but the CRV has steel wheels and they want over $2500+ for them!! It is now plus $1500+ for the VUE. Factor in no onstar, the VUE has a 5 star rating by the way, CRV no telephone, it gets 10.2/7.3 litres/100km compared to 8.8/6.7 for the VUE... Both have ABS. The Vue has more hp/tq = 170/162 vs CRV 166/161. They both have the same towing capacity. The Vue wins hands down. Although, it depends on what your perceived notion is of reliability, of the two vehicles...and we all know what yours is....:D

edit: I also notice the CRV LX doesn't even have a centre console!! They nickle and dime you, unlike the GL...JMHO


Also found out the CRV LX has no day/night mirror ($650 option), plus no alarm.....
When you add it up, the VUE is much cheaper. Don't get me wrong, I actually like the CRV, has a lot going for it...but I get so much more for the buck than the CRV LX. We have to see, in time, how reliable both SUV's are, but I suspect they about the same (note: CRV parts cost more). The Honda reliability score seems to be higher, at least from what I hear, but the real truth is time....10 years from now, if I am still posting, I will let you know...:)

[spencerb]

Some people in some situations will see a significant benefit with hybrids. I suspect that the GL would perform very well for me in my situation.

Most people will see little or no financial benefit with hybrids. The extra cost offsets the gas savings.

A few people will find themselves totally screwed by hybrids. For some driving situations they just don't work well. People also are disappointed when they find that their hybrid was tuned for performance, not gas savings (e.g. Lexus).

[eagleboy]

Most hybrids owned by consumers don't get there EPA rated mileage, not the Prius not the Escape and not the Vue. So talk to the EPA!

[RicksVue]

JoeVue07 purchased a Greenline based exclusively on it's estimated fuel economy. He is NOT getting anywhere NEAR the EPA estimated fuel economy. Neither is Bad GL. For that matter, very few if ANY hybrid owners come anywhere CLOSE to what the EPA esitmates say they should see.

Nonsense. I'm getting on average 24 MPG city, 35 MPG highway. That's pretty close to the EPA, given my short commute, 10% ethanol, etc.

Sorry if it annoys you, JD, but I'm quite happy with my Green Line. I had no illusions about what it would deliver so I've been quite pleased with what it delivered. (As I've said several times, I'm averaging 25 MPG with almost all local driving.)

[plane]

Not even close! Where did you get your comparison prices (factor in dest. charges?)? In Canada, the CRV base (LX) is $27,700 (plus 1500 dest.) vs $29,060 (plus 1200 dest.)...Now that is a $1060 plus for the CRV, but the CRV has steel wheels and they want over $2500+ for them!! It is now plus $1500+ for the VUE. Factor in no onstar, the VUE has a 5 star rating by the way, CRV no telephone, it gets 10.2/7.3 litres/100km compared to 8.8/6.7 for the VUE... Both have ABS. The Vue has more hp/tq = 170/162 vs CRV 166/161. They both have the same towing capacity. The Vue wins hands down. Although, it depends on what your perceived notion is of reliability, of the two vehicles...and we all know what yours is....:D

edit: I also notice the CRV LX doesn't even have a centre console!! They nickle and dime you, unlike the GL...JMHO

Sometimes you read a post and it makes your day. This was that post for me. Thank you!

[BobbyP]

Nonsense. I'm getting on average 24 MPG city, 35 MPG highway. That's pretty close to the EPA, given my short commute, 10% ethanol, etc.

Sorry if it annoys you, JD, but I'm quite happy with my Green Line. I had no illusions about what it would deliver so I've been quite pleased with what it delivered. (As I've said several times, I'm averaging 25 MPG with almost all local driving.)

Good news! I also easily exceed the EPA mileage ratings with my VUE. If I drive some freeway miles in the city like the EPA does during their city cycle I get over 20 mpg city. I already see between 31 and 33mpg at 65mph on the highway.

If you drive aggressively I can see anyone not achieving the EPA results. It's amazing seeing the posts against the ethanol and bio fuel production. Many people feel it is unconscionable were growing corn to make fuel when people are starving on earth...

[dq72]

I have had my Greenline for about a month and absolutely LOVE it!
Mileage is definitely not as good as my 99Jetta TDI, but it is pretty decent for an SUV!
The ride is nice, the finish is good and it's been a pleasure to drive.:cool:

I also just installed my Bell RX75 remote radar; slowly personalizing it.

[m8taylo]

New to this site. We have had a 2007 GL for 59K miles. Almost all tanks are mixed (Birmingham, AL and Tampa, FL) highway and city. Worst tank ever was 27, best was 34. Wost tank was highway, cruise control on (we were new!), a/c kicking. I have found it takes some practice to drive it correctly (MPG wise), but the 30 to 33 tanks are usual city! We don't abuse the a/c, and most important - coast to the lights. The longer the coast, the more electricity you will have (and use) to boost you moderate acceleration from the light. You wont have the "green light" on, but you will be using less fuel (and see the boost needle to the right). When the battery gets low, you see the needle swing to the middle (and your mileage is diving). Another long coast to the next light, and your charged back up. Hope this helps, another happy GL owner.

[linx3566]

New to this site. We have had a 2007 GL for 59K miles. Almost all tanks are mixed (Birmingham, AL and Tampa, FL) highway and city. Worst tank ever was 27, best was 34. Wost tank was highway, cruise control on (we were new!), a/c kicking. I have found it takes some practice to drive it correctly (MPG wise), but the 30 to 33 tanks are usual city! We don't abuse the a/c, and most important - coast to the lights. The longer the coast, the more electricity you will have (and use) to boost you moderate acceleration from the light. You wont have the "green light" on, but you will be using less fuel (and see the boost needle to the right). When the battery gets low, you see the needle swing to the middle (and your mileage is diving). Another long coast to the next light, and your charged back up. Hope this helps, another happy GL owner.

I own a 2006Honda Civic Hybrid & a 2005 FWD 4 cyl Vue. IMHO I much rather drive the Vue. It may burn more fuel but drives better. I am not going to drive to save fuel as you have to do in a hybrid. I get about 24 to 26 MPG combined in my Vue and i am quite happy with that since it is way bigger and more comfortable than the Civic. Gave my wife the Civic.