Purchase '06 or '07 Vue or wait for '08?...(m)

[GM01SC2]

As a long time automotive engineer, I know that with GM cars...which includes other manufacturers as well...it typically takes a year or two after the release of a new vehicle to get the bugs out....NVH...fit and finish...driveline issues etc. The Vue in its latest form has been around for a while now and I presume has evolved quite a bit from its early release. For those that know something of the new forthcoming Vue in '08 perhaps based upon what they know from personal experience with the current Vue, would it be a good idea to wait for the '08 model or look for a Vue prior to the new model change? I would like to find a Vue Redline with 5 speed auto with Honda engine if considering a current model.
Thanks for any advice,
George

[Tallboy]

I would wait until the first 08s hit the ground. Then decide. However, I don't think you can go wrong by buying an 06-07. Fantastic vehicles.

[BobbyP]

I'd buy a current VUE. It will take GM a few years to get the bugs out of the redesigned 08. You'll also get the Honda 3.5L engine. :)

[IMkenNY]

I feel the 07 is superior with the polymer and Honda drive train.

[moorepwr]

I feel the 07 is superior with the polymer and Honda drive train.

One of those rumored Plug-in Hybrids in the new design would be tempting for me to upgrade to. Of course I'll wait until it's in its second model year. FWD4 with a 5 speed I'll get in the first year, but full hybrid? Not a chance.

-Ricky

[kodak_jack]

For most of us here, the choice is easy: Buy Now before the steel "Vue" with typical GM V-6 comes out. I bought mine specifically for the plastic body and Honda drivetrain. I also liked the HHR, but it has its growing pains to get through.

[GM01SC2]

Thanks for all the responses so far. Sounds like many of us are on the same page. Implicitly I was wondering what many thought about the reliability of the latest Vue. I have a late model SC2 5 speed...2001...and the car has been extremely reliable.
The book on Saturn and other automakers is it takes a while to get the recipe correct when making big changes. I know being on the front line and what changes occur when issues spring up after the model change.
As mentioned, I would be purchasing likely a Redline. Don't know when production stops for '07. My best bet I guess would be to use my GM discount. I understand that credit on my GM card will not be accepted by Saturn which puts other GM products in the mix. I have always liked the design of the Vue and may have to only get the GM discount...still good...if I want a Saturn.
Thanks again,
George

[fatabbot]

I'll be the one that says wait for the 2008. It should be superior to the 2007, minus the absences of polymer.

Don't know why so many people are clinging to the current VUE so strongly. Sure, they're nice cars, but they're easily upstaged :dizzy:

[bronzestarvue]

I'd buy an '07. It'll be the last VUE with the polymer panels, and that's what makes a Saturn a Saturn, right?! Also, with the Honda drivetrain, it's a hard combination to beat. Throw in GM's new 100K warranty on the 07's, and it should be a no-brainer. GM won't have the '08's sorted out for a few years anyway, and with no polymer panels, it's really not a "true" Saturn...

[MarvC]

I had my wifes 07 VUE in Saturday for a minor issue. It is an 07 loaded with everything but the sunroof. Power is from the 3.5L Honda V6.
We have had it for a little over 3 months and only have 3000 miles on the VUE.
We put quite a bit down on the car, our payoff is 7500.00.
My son works at the Saturn dealership so I know everyone there.
Our salesman saw me and asked me about a trade out to the same configured 08 VUE with me only loosing the car payments I have sent in.
I am going to wait and see what comes of the 08 to be at the dealershiup in March.
My main concern is loosing the gem of a Honda Engine, man that is a sweet powerplant.
I am 100% happy with the VUE, no windnoise just one quiet ride!
Will see what comes of this.
http://www.pbase.com/marvc/image/70667355/original.jpg

[MarvC]

Follow this link for information on what is (possibly) the soon to be released 2008 VUE.
No Honda Drivetrain/Engine in 2008, all steel a little more plush inside, leather will be of better quality and greater color selection.
Major body design change!

http://www.caranddriver.com/autoshows/12063/2008-saturn-vue.html

[jess06]

Well, I shop from a more 'girly' perspective (heck i spent 2 weeks looking the internet to get the exact color i wanted) and I really dont like the new body on the 2008 VUE. It looks too much like a minivan or all the other SUVs out there on the market. Too round..

[GM01SC2]

I had my wifes 07 VUE in Saturday for a minor issue. It is an 07 loaded with everything but the sunroof. Power is from the 3.5L Honda V6.
We have had it for a little over 3 months and only have 3000 miles on the VUE.
We put quite a bit down on the car, our payoff is 7500.00.
My son works at the Saturn dealership so I know everyone there.
Our salesman saw me and asked me about a trade out to the same configured 08 VUE with me only loosing the car payments I have sent in.
I am going to wait and see what comes of the 08 to be at the dealershiup in March.
My main concern is loosing the gem of a Honda Engine, man that is a sweet powerplant.
I am 100% happy with the VUE, no windnoise just one quiet ride!
Will see what comes of this.
http://www.pbase.com/marvc/image/70667355/original.jpg
Nice pic and thanks for sharing your perspective. The '07 Vue with new headlights is one handsome buggy which I am sure has been refined each year. Hard to fault that Honda engine as you say as well.
Best Regards,
George

[kodak_jack]

The same vehicle , but with the steel panels and POS GM V-6 is the Chevy Equinox or Pontiac Torrent, if you're looking for a larger discount. You talk about reliability and that's one reason I DID NOT buy a GM V-6. I've been burned by 3 of them and that's plenty for me. :upset:

[stew32]

1. Read through the Vue forums so you know what you're getting into. Look at the competition. For example, the new Honda CR-V addresses two problems many had with it- they took the spare off the back and made the hatch lift instead of side swing.
2. If you're still intent on buying a Vue, buy an 06 or 07 with 3.5 and plastic panels.
3. FWD rather than AWD since the system now doesn't do much and drops fuel economy.
4. Save some $$$ and get a normal Vue instead of a RL unless you're in love with the package. All the Vue V6's have the identical Honda engine and trans. I thought the 17's and suspension on a normal Vue were plenty stiff and handled well for an SUV.
5. Don't complain when your Vue has the same problems you read about in the forums!

[MarvC]

1. Read through the Vue forums so you know what you're getting into. Look at the competition. For example, the new Honda CR-V addresses two problems many had with it- they took the spare off the back and made the hatch lift instead of side swing.
2. If you're still intent on buying a Vue, buy an 06 or 07 with 3.5 and plastic panels.
3. FWD rather than AWD since the system now doesn't do much and drops fuel economy.
4. Save some $$$ and get a normal Vue instead of a RL unless you're in love with the package. All the Vue V6's have the identical Honda engine and trans. I thought the 17's and suspension on a normal Vue were plenty stiff and handled well for an SUV.
5. Don't complain when your Vue has the same problems you read about in the forums!
If you visit ANY of the Forums you will see the faults of any car..Toyota, Nissan etc..etc.
I owned a 2003 Nissan Altima I had my share of the problems with this car more so than was normal with a quality Nissan product per say!
I will pass on the 08 Saturn, the Honda Drivetrain and general look of our view makes me appreciate what I have, it is one very sweet ride!
We have had only one issue with our VUE the grocery cart in the back rattled which the dealer corrected.

[SLAPSHOT]

As a long time automotive engineer, I know that with GM cars...which includes other manufacturers as well...it typically takes a year or two after the release of a new vehicle to get the bugs out....NVH...fit and finish...driveline issues etc. The Vue in its latest form has been around for a while now and I presume has evolved quite a bit from its early release. For those that know something of the new forthcoming Vue in '08 perhaps based upon what they know from personal experience with the current Vue, would it be a good idea to wait for the '08 model or look for a Vue prior to the new model change? I would like to find a Vue Redline with 5 speed auto with Honda engine if considering a current model.
Thanks for any advice,
George


Since you're specifically asking about model "changes", the latest VUE hasn't exactly been around for very long. The current design started in 2006, and Saturn's already changing it again in 2008. 2002 through 2005 is the same design (exterior), but the 3.5 Honda was added in 2004 and the VTi in the four cylinder was dropped in 2005 I believe. As I said earlier, the current design only started in 2006, but the powerplants/tranny's have been the same since 2004. Personally, I'd go with a 2007 non-redline VUE. I mean the Redline doesn't go any faster, and you can't tow anything with a Redline, you just get a better grill (arguably), "sportier" suspension, and ground effects.....waste of money if you ask me. The main reason I'd go with an '07 is for the polymer....I couldn't care less about the Honda motor, if that's all you want then buy a Honda. :rolleyes:

[mellissam]

........It looks too much like a minivan or all the other SUVs out there on the market. Too round..

Finally, someone who agrees with me....the roundedness is too retro in the new VUE....a throwback in design (reminds me of the early Star Trek episodes). And it doesn't differentiate itself very well against it's competitors (read polymer). They finally made a real fold-flat floor in the 08, but I can't think of what else is revolutionary and new (slightly more HP for the base I4). I do look forward to having a peek at one when they come out.....you'll probably have the opportunity to see them side-by-side, and can make a choice then. If bargain is your mantra, you could probably get an 06 on the cheap....call up several dealers in your neighbourhood, and give them a low-ball number for an 06....and wait. Can't hurt. The one big plus for an 07/08 is the longer warranty. Although the 08 is redesigned, I shouldn't expect too many teething pains (if we are talking the I4 base version), as the engine/drivetrain has been around for a while. Interesting dilemma....:)

[pdough]

I'd go with the '07 since it has the extended warranty or get a deep discount on the '06. I would wait a few years on the newer version. Let GM iron the wrinkles out of the new one from Mexico. I'm sure there will be a few no matter where its built.

[m4gician]

I feel the 07 is superior with the polymer and Honda drive train.


make sure you get the FWD to maximize your fuel mileage. (by just a little bit)

[BobbyP]

Since you're specifically asking about model "changes", the latest VUE hasn't exactly been around for very long. The current design started in 2006, and Saturn's already changing it again in 2008. 2002 through 2005 is the same design (exterior), but the 3.5 Honda was added in 2004 and the VTi in the four cylinder was dropped in 2005 I believe. As I said earlier, the current design only started in 2006, but the powerplants/tranny's have been the same since 2004. Personally, I'd go with a 2007 non-redline VUE. I mean the Redline doesn't go any faster, and you can't tow anything with a Redline, you just get a better grill (arguably), "sportier" suspension, and ground effects.....waste of money if you ask me. The main reason I'd go with an '07 is for the polymer....I couldn't care less about the Honda motor, if that's all you want then buy a Honda. :rolleyes:

GM01SC2 It all depends on what you expect from your VUE whether or not the Red Line package is desired. Take the time to drive a Red Line VUE before making a decision. I've driven both RL and non-RL VUES equally and can say it was not a "waste of money"...

It doesn't take long to spend $2500 on aftermarket upgrades to your VUE, it would be best if you bought them factory installed.

The only users that knock the Honda powertrain are the ones that don't have this power plant. My Saturn salesman said the current VUE was the best of both worlds, the Saturn polymer body and Honda power plant. I agree...

The 2006 VUE was a cosmetic design change to try and make VUE look new. IMO the better ride, handling and aerodynamics of the Red Line VUE are worth the money. The Suede and leather seating is very comfortable, the led footwell lighting is a nice touch at night.

[cdp326]

For most of us here, the choice is easy: Buy Now before the steel "Vue" with typical GM V-6 comes out. I bought mine specifically for the plastic body and Honda drivetrain. I also liked the HHR, but it has its growing pains to get through.
You mean the typical GM V6s that are new designs?
High Feature 3.6L V6: first in 2004 Cadillac CTS, SRX
3.5L OHV VVT V6: first in 2006 Chevy Impala, Monte Carlo

Please don't characterize everybody here with that. Not all of us are partial enough to the polymer panels to look past the current VUE's other flaws.

[Ritz]

You mean the typical GM V6s that are new designs?
High Feature 3.6L V6: first in 2004 Cadillac CTS, SRX
3.5L OHV VVT V6: first in 2006 Chevy Impala, Monte Carlo

Please don't characterize everybody here with that. Not all of us are partial enough to the polymer panels to look past the current VUE's other flaws.

GM is going to have to EARN my trust on their new V6 designs. We'll see how it plays out. Cadi folks seem to like the 3.6L. As for whether or not to get the current VUE vs the new one, there is another option:

Suzuki XL7

It's a slightly longer "VUE" built on the same platform using the new GM 3.6L V6, it has a *working* AWD system available, it's cheaper, roomier and it's available TODAY. I test drove one and thought it was pretty nice. I liked it better than our '06 AWD VUE. It might be worth a test drive if you're in the market today.

Cheers,

[BobbyP]

You mean the typical GM V6s that are new designs?
High Feature 3.6L V6: first in 2004 Cadillac CTS, SRX
3.5L OHV VVT V6: first in 2006 Chevy Impala, Monte Carlo

The GM 3.5L OHV VVT V6 has good mileage and performance, but falls short of the refinement, performance and smoothness of the Honda 3.5L.

A blind man could tell you that in the first 30 seconds in the car.

I haven't had a chance to drive the GM 3.6L yet.

All the domestic V6 engines I've ever driven don't match the refinement of the Honda 3.5L V6.

[fatabbot]

Suzuki XL7


+1

Great car.

[Ritz]

The GM 3.5L OHV VVT V6 has good mileage and performance, but falls short of the refinement, performance and smoothness of the Honda 3.5L.

A blind man could tell you that in the first 30 seconds in the car.

I haven't had a chance to drive the GM 3.6L yet.

All the domestic V6 engines I've ever driven don't match the refinement of the Honda 3.5L V6.

To be honest, I don't think the 3.6L matches the "refinement" of the Honda 3.5L either, but someone pointed out (and my test drive seemed to confirm) that it had a fatter/flatter torque curve. Judging from all the press on the CTS, the 3.6L seems to be respectable. It's only been in use a couple of years now so long-term durability remains to be seen.

Cheers,

[sspeer]

The GM 3.5L OHV VVT V6 has good mileage and performance, but falls short of the refinement, performance and smoothness of the Honda 3.5L.

A blind man could tell you that in the first 30 seconds in the car.

I haven't had a chance to drive the GM 3.6L yet.

All the domestic V6 engines I've ever driven don't match the refinement of the Honda 3.5L V6.

How can you judge the 3.6 if you've never driven it?

I like my 3.5, and I've driven my mom's CTS with a 3.6 and it seems like a very nice engine as well.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, but you seemed to have pre-judged it due to its origin

[kodak_jack]

you seemed to have pre-judged it due to its origin

Gee, I wonder why?!! :dizzy: I've been bitten 3 times in the past 15 years on GM V-6's because they didn't bother to fix the same damned problem. As mentioned, it'll take years for GM to prove themselves again. By then, many people will have moved on. Getting back to the original request for information, buy the proven Honda V-6 preferred by MANY (not most) Vue owners.

[SLAPSHOT]

The only users that knock the Honda powertrain are the ones that don't have this power plant.


I have never "knocked" the Honda engine, just the delusional people who think they bought a Honda vehicle.

[binkybaby]

Just my personal opinion, and it probably don't count for much, but i got the '06 because of the Honda motor and the fact i like the current body style better. i think i'll still have to get used to the idea of a CR-V clone being called a "Vue" when to me that describes the current ones (02-07 models) i'm sure the new GM motors are good, i'm just a little dissapointed that they couldn't improve the horsepower ratings. But for my answer to the question, want a REAL Saturn Vue? BUY NOW! Now don't get me wrong, i'm not knocking the '08 model, but for some reason it's just TOO radical a departure from what i'm used to thinking of what a Vue is.

[BobbyP]

How can you judge the 3.6 if you've never driven it?

I like my 3.5, and I've driven my mom's CTS with a 3.6 and it seems like a very nice engine as well.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, but you seemed to have pre-judged it due to its origin

That's why I mentioned I never driven it yet. I'm hoping the new GM 3.6L could be equivalent to the Honda engine. Especially important since the Honda engine is being discontinued in a few months.

[cdp326]

The GM 3.5L OHV VVT V6 has good mileage and performance, but falls short of the refinement, performance and smoothness of the Honda 3.5L.

A blind man could tell you that in the first 30 seconds in the car.

I haven't had a chance to drive the GM 3.6L yet.

All the domestic V6 engines I've ever driven don't match the refinement of the Honda 3.5L V6.
I didn't say it was better; I'm sure that that's the reason why you don't find it as the top level choice in many new GM cars.
GM does seem to be the best w/ pushrods; or at least, better than Ford. GM has put the most effort into pushrod technology lately.

One problem with the Honda V6, as brought up before, is the torque. A minivan or SUV is not a vehicle that you want to have the power available up high. Good in a perfomance car, but not necessarily elsewhere.

Gee, I wonder why?!! :dizzy: I've been bitten 3 times in the past 15 years on GM V-6's because they didn't bother to fix the same damned problem. As mentioned, it'll take years for GM to prove themselves again. By then, many people will have moved on. Getting back to the original request for information, buy the proven Honda V-6 preferred by MANY (not most) Vue owners.
And the fact is that GM V6s like the High Feature DOHC engines aren't related to the old 60 degree pushrods from years ago.
The Honda V6 is great, I'm sure (I haven't driven one), and I'm not knocking it. But, it's higher maintenance (timing belt, plus I've heard things like oil changes are more expensive) and it costs more overall. Our I4 VUE has been good.

Heaven forbid somebody like the Ecotec I4s, the Honda V6s, and the GM V6s! :eek: :no:

[BobbyP]

I have never "knocked" the Honda engine, just the delusional people who think they bought a Honda vehicle.

Sensitive... I've never read anyone's posts where they felt their VUE was made by Honda.

Like most of the recent VUE owners we've felt the Honda engine as an added benefit to the Saturn VUE. I personally would have bought it anyway with a GM manufactured V6. I never owned a GM V6 before. I've heard nothing but good comments about the GM 3.0L.

The current VUE is like building your own computer. You can choose between all the different manufacturers of components and use what you feel is the best from each category. Saturn body, Honda powertrain, Red Line case... :)

[BobbyP]

To be honest, I don't think the 3.6L matches the "refinement" of the Honda 3.5L either, but someone pointed out (and my test drive seemed to confirm) that it had a fatter/flatter torque curve. Judging from all the press on the CTS, the 3.6L seems to be respectable. It's only been in use a couple of years now so long-term durability remains to be seen.

Cheers,

The VTEC on the 3.5L does come on a bit strong influencing the the power curve. It's great for passing! :)

I may drive an Aura XR in the near future. I drove a Jeep Liberty 4x4 with a 3.7L last week. The interior packaging was like a vehicle from the 70's. The windshield was so close that even with the seat all the way back I could reach out and touch the bottom of the windshield. The dash looked just 12" deep. The interior was smaller than a VUE.

The 3.7L V6 engine was coarse and not very swift. Even though I had it in 2WD mode it felt like the engine was still being loaded down by the 4WD drive train. I hope this isn't the case with the new 2008 VUE AWD.

[DesertPuma]

I'll be the one that says wait for the 2008. It should be superior to the 2007, minus the absences of polymer.

Don't know why so many people are clinging to the current VUE so strongly. Sure, they're nice cars, but they're easily upstaged :dizzy:

There is an easy answer to this....one word...Polymer. 'Nuff said.

[BobbyP]

One problem with the Honda V6, as brought up before, is the torque. A minivan or SUV is not a vehicle that you want to have the power available up high. Good in a perfomance car, but not necessarily elsewhere.

I never plan on towing anything, GM said I couldn't with my RL. I agree an engine with power in the low end would be best in a SUV or minivan, but I haven't heard of any complaints from VUE, Pilot, Ridgeline, or Odyssey owners. The extra power the VTEC gives you in the high end is icing on the cake. The 3.5L has adequate power in the low end for normal needs and more in the high end.

And the fact is that GM V6s like the High Feature DOHC engines aren't related to the old 60 degree pushrods from years ago.
The Honda V6 is great, I'm sure (I haven't driven one), and I'm not knocking it. But, it's higher maintenance (timing belt, plus I've heard things like oil changes are more expensive) and it costs more overall. Our I4 VUE has been good.

Heaven forbid somebody like the Ecotec I4s, the Honda V6s, and the GM V6s! :eek: :no:

Other than replacing the timing belts at 100k miles the maintenance is the same as any GM engine. It only requires 4.5 quarts of oil. The Saturn dealer sends me letter with a $19.99 oil change and wash every month.

[SLAPSHOT]

Sensitive... I've never read anyone's posts where they felt their VUE was made by Honda.

Like most of the recent VUE owners we've felt the Honda engine as an added benefit to the Saturn VUE.

I agree the 3.5 is an added benefit. However, how many times have we read posts that go a little something like this "I love my HONDA motor/transmission, but I hate yadda, yadda yadda, about my VUE"? No, they're not saying that they felt the vehicle was made by Honda, but it sure does imply it. I've read a ton of posts that say "I only bought the VUE because of the Honda engine". These people are delusional, and in IMHO, should've bought a Honda. There are even members here that have the ole "Powered by HONDA" sticker on their window....please. I don't get the logic there, why do they think anyone else cares that they have a Honda engine. That sticker just tells me that they're too poor to buy a Honda so they settled for a Vue with a Honda engine. Those stickers are so asinine. :yes:

[BobbyP]

There is an easy answer to this....one word...Polymer. 'Nuff said.

The best design elements of the original Saturn philosophy is coming to an end. Everything from here on is a rebadged GM/Opel platform. The new 2008 VUE can now be judged evenly with it's competition. There's nothing unique to it.

[BobbyP]

There are even members here that have the ole "Powered by HONDA" sticker on their window....please. I don't get the logic there, why do they think anyone else cares that they have a Honda engine. That sticker just tells me that they're too poor to buy a Honda so they settled for a Vue with a Honda engine. Those stickers are so asinine. :yes:

Sorry you feel that way... I have a "Powered by Honda" sticker on the back of my VUE just to get a rise from the Honda fanatics. It's funny watching them show out after they see the emblem. A few of them get upset... Obviously they don't know Honda sold their engines to Saturn.

I bought my VUE RL because I wanted another Saturn. Saturn has been good to me and my family for years, and you should support a company that takes care of you. I can buy any car Honda, or Acura builds.

http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/data/500/thumbs/VUE_Redline_033.jpg (http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=32909)

[fatabbot]

There is an easy answer to this....one word...Polymer. 'Nuff said.

Wow, you're easy to please. I got a polymer bridge for sale if you're interested.

[KCW]

I gotta different take on this whole thread.

How can anyone recommend a vehicle that isnt in production yet? All we know is what is out there now, and people will be for or against the current model based on their experience

so it all comes down to this: do you believe in the engineers and management at GM or not? If the engineers are worth their salary then the new Vue will be better than the present ones.

Engineers follow a design cycle, from intial concepts to end-of-product life. The next Vue should be better, unless the present one was just a fluke (they didnt really know what they were doing and just got lucky?!)

The only way you will know for sure is if you wait till the '08s are out, so you can weigh one against the other. If you decide you want an '07 then, you can get a great deal on one at the end of year sale prices.

[fatabbot]

I gotta different take on this whole thread.

How can anyone recommend a vehicle that isnt in production yet? All we know is what is out there now, and people will be for or against the current model based on their experience

so it all comes down to this: do you believe in the engineers and management at GM or not? If the engineers are worth their salary then the new Vue will be better than the present ones.

Engineers follow a design cycle, from intial concepts to end-of-product life. The next Vue should be better, unless the present one was just a fluke (they didnt really know what they were doing and just got lucky?!)

The only way you will know for sure is if you wait till the '08s are out, so you can weigh one against the other. If you decide you want an '07 then, you can get a great deal on one at the end of year sale prices.

Good post. I'd definitely wait until the 2008 comes out or is at least loaned out to journalists.

[BobbyP]

I gotta different take on this whole thread.

How can anyone recommend a vehicle that isnt in production yet? All we know is what is out there now, and people will be for or against the current model based on their experience

so it all comes down to this: do you believe in the engineers and management at GM or not? If the engineers are worth their salary then the new Vue will be better than the present ones.

Engineers follow a design cycle, from intial concepts to end-of-product life. The next Vue should be better, unless the present one was just a fluke (they didnt really know what they were doing and just got lucky?!)

The only way you will know for sure is if you wait till the '08s are out, so you can weigh one against the other. If you decide you want an '07 then, you can get a great deal on one at the end of year sale prices.

Good post! The sad thing part of the timing of the 2008 VUE. By the time the 2008 is up for sale the 2007's will be gone.

We all don't want a repeat of the ION.

[KCW]

...We all don't want a repeat of the ION.

thats the way it goes with big companies. If the '08 Vues come out and they are junk, then Saturn is on a downward slide, and it time to find a new car company to be loyal to.

If that is the case then things will get ugly anyway. Would you really want a new '07 in that case?

Like I said, you either have faith in Saturn (and GM) or you dont - thats what it really comes down to.

[SLAPSHOT]

Sorry you feel that way... I have a "Powered by Honda" sticker on the back of my VUE just to get a rise from the Honda fanatics. It's funny watching them show out after they see the emblem. A few of them get upset... Obviously they don't know Honda sold their engines to Saturn.
http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/data/500/thumbs/VUE_Redline_033.jpg (http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=32909)

I still don't "get" your logic there, but hey it's your ride, you can put whatever asinine emblems you like on it. I'm sure there are people who think my Tennessee Vols license plate frame is asinine, especially since it surrounds a Texas license plate. :snide: .....and so we digress even further.....

[GearGuy]

Well, I don't know about people believing that they have a Honda Vue... But I know that when I was looking for a new vehicle, the Vue was a standout by offering an excellent combination of features. Short list...
Plastic body panels.
Flexible cargo room.
A compact SUV with a powerful, smooth V6 engine and 5 speed tranny that still gets good gas mileage.
And yeah, it was unique that it had a Honda engine in a GM body.

My decision was based on the test drive of the vehicle. I really didn't care that much about the origins of the parts as long as they seemed reputable based on whatever research I could do.

I mean, Honda was a source for the eninge just as much as Delphi was probably the source for the cooling system and the HVAC system. And Visteon or NVG (not sure which) was the source for the AWD system. And maybe Safelite was the source for the window glass. And maybe Matsu****a was the source for the audio system. Bosch the brakes? Sombody else the suspension? Sombody else the interior pieces...

I don't get the whole Honda Vue thing other than it being 'cute'. Being 'cute' about it, with stickers and all, is fine. No big deal. I just don't get anybody saying that it's more Honda that GM because of the engine. Do people call the Honda Passport an Isuzu Passport? At least in that case it was more of a simple rebadge... The Saturn Vue was a designed package of suppliers of which the Honda engine was one option. That's the way I look at it and the way a lot of cars are built these days. I know Honda doesn't assemble their vehicles from 100% Honda manufactured parts...

Really, what I did was to research the 'package' that was the vehicle to determine if it was what I wanted and what I could trust. At the time, there were no other vehicles that could compete with the Vue based on my requirements. New V6 RAV 4 wasn't out yet...

Back on topic... '06 or '07 versus '08.

Personally I'm leery of any first year run. I like to research and get collectivbe opinions of a vehicle before making such a large financial commitment. Without the existence of any vehicle history to check the purchase would basically have to be made based on a test drive and a bit of faith that it won't have problems, with a warranty to back it. Not neccesarily a bad thing but personally I like to research actual user experiences of a major product.

Regarding the design. Haven't seen the actual vehicle in person. Not crazy about the raised ridges onthe hood. I don't like the pronounced rear slope of the rear hatch which typically limits cargo ability. I do like the dual exhaust. I do like the added features though I'm sure it will be at the expense of added weight and higher cost.

I don't think anybody can tell you definitively whether the '08 will really be a better vehicle or not yet. Not until real people have bought it and start sharing their experiences. Engine and tranny will be new so there won't be any long term info on that....

Sounds like you know the situation as much as anyone else here and just need to make your decision. If you need to order your Redline exactly the way you want it, I wouldn't wait until the last minute. You might get burned. If you're more flexible, you may be able to check out the new vehicles and weigh them against what previous models are left on the dealer lots. But then you might not get the previous model year vehicle that you really want...

Tough choice, I know. At least it's not as bad as the computer industry....

[BobbyP]

I still don't "get" your logic there, but hey it's your ride, you can put whatever asinine emblems you like on it. I'm sure there are people who think my Tennessee Vols license plate frame is asinine, especially since it surrounds a Texas license plate. :snide: .....and so we digress even further.....


It is quite logical, it states a irrevocable fact. Honda fanatics don't like the fact that Saturn uses their engines...

[KCW]

It is quite logical, it states a irrevocable fact. Honda fanatics don't like the fact that Saturn uses their engines...

I dont see why. I would think it would be the other way around. I would think Saturn fanatics would be upset that Saturn could not supply their own engines!

When Dodge came up with a car to compete with the 'new' VW rabbit, they could not get engine production online fast enough for their new Omni. So they purchased engines from VW for a year or two.

As a VW owner I thought it was funny that Dodge could not manufacture their own engines, and I thought it was pretty cool they were buying motors from VW.

I would never buy an Dodge Omni, I thought they were a piece of junk compared to the Rabbit - but Im pretty sure VW made a profit on those engines, which was good for VW.

I dont see any reason why Honda fans would be upset.

[SLAPSHOT]

I dont see why. I would think it would be the other way around. I would think Saturn fanatics would be upset that Saturn could not supply their own engines!

When Dodge came up with a car to compete with the 'new' VW rabbit, they could not get engine production online fast enough for their new Omni. So they purchased engines from VW for a year or two.

As a VW owner I thought it was funny that Dodge could not manufacture their own engines, and I thought it was pretty cool they were buying motors from VW.

I would never buy an Dodge Omni, I thought they were a piece of junk compared to the Rabbit - but Im pretty sure VW made a profit on those engines, which was good for VW.

I dont see any reason why Honda fans would be upset.

Exactly my point. It makes the Saturn Vue owner look as if he/she is a wanna-be Honda driver. If I were a "Honda Fanatic" I'd be pointing and laughing at the dude who wishes he had a real Honda. It's just silly IMO.

[fatabbot]

Exactly my point. It makes the Saturn Vue owner look as if he/she is a wanna-be Honda driver. If I were a "Honda Fanatic" I'd be pointing and laughing at the dude who wishes he had a real Honda. It's just silly IMO.

+1

It's just tacky. :rolleyes:

[DesertPuma]

Wow, you're easy to please. I got a polymer bridge for sale if you're interested.

Cool!... I am sure it will last longer than any old rusty steel one. :D

But seriously, you were wondering why everyone is clamoring over the '06-'07 VUE's. And I am telling you (the major reasons) it is one or both of the following:


Honda Engine (not a huge consideration for me, I have the GM 3.0L V6, and I am happy with it)
Polymer Sides (as you well know, for me, this is huge. Go ahead, get out the dead horse :) .)

[fatabbot]

Cool!... I am sure it will last longer than any old rusty steel one. :D

But seriously, you were wondering why everyone is clamoring over the '06-'07 VUE's. And I am telling you (the major reasons) it is one or both of the following:


Honda Engine (not a huge consideration for me, I have the GM 3.0L V6, and I am happy with it)
Polymer Sides (as you well know, for me, this is huge. Go ahead, get out the dead horse :) .)


I understand that. However, what I'm wondering is why people are so stuck on those two things. Sure, the current VUE is nice (debatable, really...). However, it desperately needs updating to remain competitive. If giving up polymer is the price to pay for having a competent model, I'm all for it.

I have faith in the GM V6, so that's not an issue. Lack of polymer? I have a little higher standards for cars than to rule it out based on not being plastic :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[BobbyP]

Exactly my point. It makes the Saturn Vue owner look as if he/she is a wanna-be Honda driver. If I were a "Honda Fanatic" I'd be pointing and laughing at the dude who wishes he had a real Honda. It's just silly IMO.

It's your opinion... It's really funny the Honda fanatics all want to race.

We're all very happy and to have to have Honda engines in our VUE's. Many VUE owners may very well become Honda owners after the positive experiences with their Honda powertrains.

[cdp326]

I dont see why. I would think it would be the other way around. I would think Saturn fanatics would be upset that Saturn could not supply their own engines!

When Dodge came up with a car to compete with the 'new' VW rabbit, they could not get engine production online fast enough for their new Omni. So they purchased engines from VW for a year or two.

As a VW owner I thought it was funny that Dodge could not manufacture their own engines, and I thought it was pretty cool they were buying motors from VW.

I would never buy an Dodge Omni, I thought they were a piece of junk compared to the Rabbit - but Im pretty sure VW made a profit on those engines, which was good for VW.

I dont see any reason why Honda fans would be upset.
We had a Dodge Omni--one of the most reliable cars we probably had. :yes: (It was an '84, so I think it was a Peugeot engine at that point; I have to check.)
Honda fans can be very loyal, and the idea of a Honda motor in something else that they likely see as inferior no doubt ticked a few Honda fans off.

Oh, and DesertPuma...I've got a nice Hyundai Excel 4-door hatch with polymer panels for ya, perfect replacement for your SW2. :yes: :D

[D C]

Cool!... I am sure it will last longer than any old rusty steel one. :D

But seriously, you were wondering why everyone is clamoring over the '06-'07 VUE's. And I am telling you (the major reasons) it is one or both of the following:


Honda Engine (not a huge consideration for me, I have the GM 3.0L V6, and I am happy with it)
Polymer Sides (as you well know, for me, this is huge. Go ahead, get out the dead horse :) .)


I understand that. However, what I'm wondering is why people are so stuck on those two things. Sure, the current VUE is nice (debatable, really...). However, it desperately needs updating to remain competitive. If giving up polymer is the price to pay for having a competent model, I'm all for it.

I have faith in the GM V6, so that's not an issue. Lack of polymer? I have a little higher standards for cars than to rule it out based on not being plastic :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

It seems as though everyone cites those two things as reasons in favor of the current VUE, but the number of people who actually care about polymer panels is incredibly small, and the GM V6s are among the best out there. So neither of those are really valid reasons to buy a current model over a new.

Beyond those, I think people are nervous about a first model year car. The best car I've ever owned was a first model year and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another.

The new VUE will have steel panels. Ok, no biggie for most people
It will have a GM V6. Great engines used in a ton of other GM products
It will be on an updated version of the same chassis. Shouldn't be a big worry there.
It will look different. Subjective thing, which looks better to you?

I'm not coming up with any reasons to pick a current over a new, or for that matter a new over current. Buy whichever one floats your boat better.

[mellissam]

........ Buy whichever one floats your boat better.

I think the polymer one will float better....just a hunch. :D

[BobbyP]

I think the polymer one will float better....just a hunch. :D

The Saturn VUE is the official hurricane escape vehicle in New Orleans because of it's floatation properties... :)

[06VRL]

George
Some of the responses here that you "CAN'T tow with the RL obviously don't read this forum much, there are quite a few people on this board who tow with their RL, it's just slightly more difficult setting it up to do so, and Saturn has even on a case by case basis given their blessing, although they have stated you are limited to 2,000 lbs tow rating!

I think the O7 would be your best bet, and here are my reasons why

1) Polymer Panels: my 03 L200 other than the initial application of 1st Place Finish when I bought it, has never been waxed and still looks almost brand new and no door dings or rust showing through (and this is the last chance to get them)

2) The Honda engine in my 06 Vue is, shall we say, more refined than GM's offerings, (current versions excluded, they have made great strides in improving their V6 offerings including increasing gas mileage) but at the time they went with the Honda engine, the engine that would have been in it, I probably wouldn't have bought it

3) 5 Year/100,000 Mile Warranty (my experience with getting warranty work done with my local Dealer, I can honestly say it has been easier than getting warranty work done on any other product I have ever bought)

4) Definitely get the RL, that is after all what you said you wanted, I don't know why others here are trying to talk you out of that one, but to each their own? (let's see, it sits lower, handles better, looks better, has a better interior and you see less of them on the road) This is of course my opinion!

5) Although the All-Wheel-Drive is passive, does decrease mileage slightly, has the potential for more things to break down, it is covered by the warranty and where I live, it was an absolute must on my list, I look at it like this, it is my little insurance policy for better traction when needed, even considering it is only slightly effective!

6) Through the lifetime of this vehicle they have improved it, refined it, and made it better, and it is the last run of it, so you would have the last of it's kind!

7) Many people here complain about the Saturn "NO HAGGLE" pricing and how they can get better discounts from other brands, but in my experience with 2 Saturns, I may have gotten a better price up front, but in the long haul I would not have gotten the excellent "NO HAGGLE" service I have received from my dealership anywhere else! "nuff said"

I personally don't like the look of the 08, although I will reserve judgment until I see actual pics of the RL version, I don't buy 1st versions of anything, there are always "BUGS & GREMLINS to work out!

Good Luck On Your Decision, Happy Shopping!

[fatabbot]

I don't buy 1st versions of anything, there are always "BUGS & GREMLINS to work out!


To me that's the only reason to go ahead and pick up an 07 now. I'm not brave enough to buy first year models either. However, I think the 2008 will be superior in almost every way (not that that's saying much...).

[greyhound bus]

It seems as though everyone cites those two things as reasons in favor of the current VUE, but the number of people who actually care about polymer panels is incredibly small, and the GM V6s are among the best out there. So neither of those are really valid reasons to buy a current model over a new.

Beyond those, I think people are nervous about a first model year car. The best car I've ever owned was a first model year and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another.

The new VUE will have steel panels. Ok, no biggie for most people
It will have a GM V6. Great engines used in a ton of other GM products
It will be on an updated version of the same chassis. Shouldn't be a big worry there.


I think the losing the polymer IS a big deal. If you live in the rust belt, you'll know why. I can usually keep a car mechically sound forever, but I can't keep bodies on the dang things. In my opinion, GM screwed up as usual. They should be converting ALL their cars to polymer. If they used it on all their cars, the costs would go down and the technology would move forward. Going back to steel is just a HUGE step backward. As far it not being a big deal with buyers, I'll bet if you asked 100 people on the street about it, 85 wouldn't know Saturn used them, or what's good about them. Another example of how GM dropped the ball. As for the Honda motor, it was one of the two reason we opted for a Vue over a NOX. 1) was that the NOX is ugly compared to the Vue, and 2) while I don't have an issue with the GM 3.4 in general, the fact that they are a LOT less powerful, have no mileage advantage and are assembled in CHINA was enough to turn me off. I chose a great American built Japanese motor over a good Chinese built American motor. I too probably wouldn't buy a first year model either unless I could afford to unload it early. . GM has a history (unfortunetly) of needing a few years to iron things out. How many people here think an 02' Vue is as good as an 07'? In fact, GM has a history of bailing out on a car just as they finally get it right.

[fatabbot]

In fact, GM has a history of bailing out on a car just as they finally get it right.

:rolleyes:

By the time they get it "right", it's already obsolete. VUE is a perfect example.

[greyhound bus]

If the Vue is obsolete, what about the Nox' and the Torrent? I've never really believed that anyway. A vehicle either meets my needs and desires or it does not. I personally don't care if it's a 50 year old design. Make a brand new 62 Chevy with A/C, power steering and brakes, and I'll be first in line for it. I want a vehicle that get the job done, not the fad styling or fad options of the moment. I have a 72 Chevelle SS convertible. That car is 35 years old, and I don't think ANYBODY has made an any better looking car yet. My dad and I own an 82 Chevy K20 pickup. A real heavy duty sucker, out of Arizona-no rust. Works fantastic, has everything we need. I don't think I would buy a new truck even if I could. We spend so much time CHANGING things in this world, we never PERFECT anything.

[fatabbot]

I personally don't care if it's a 50 year old design. Make a brand new 62 Chevy with A/C, power steering and brakes, and I'll be first in line for it.

What you and 1000 other people on this forum fail to see is that you're the minority (i.e. not the customers GM really needs in order to return to profitability). While I respect your opinion, it makes bad business sense to keep models around forever in the face of improving competition. I'd say 90% of car buying population doesn't want to buy a brand new car that's almost identical to a 6-10 year old model.

[MJD1001]

If you can, I'd wait for the new one. These days, the 'getting the bugs out' of a new car thing is overblown. By the time a car is released, to me there doesn't seem to be a lot more problems or recalls in the first year than in the year after.

And as far as how the car is designed, technology available, and the like...almost all new cars are superior to the ones they replace. Sure, looks are subjective, and something like power to weight ratio may not change much with a new model, but generally a brand new vehicle is going to feature parts and equipment that is equal to or superior to what is available before it.

Wait until the 08's come out. Worst case scenario is you don't like the 08's, and you can pick up an existing 07 off the lot (likely with some kind of promotion or discount). The best thing is you like the 08's and are glad you didn't buy an 07 and been dissapointed.

[MJD1001]

What you and 1000 other people on this forum fail to see is that you're the minority (i.e. not the customers GM really needs in order to return to profitability). While I respect your opinion, it makes bad business sense to keep models around forever in the face of improving competition. I'd say 90% of car buying population doesn't want to buy a brand new car that's almost identical to a 6-10 year old model.

I agree with your sentiment. I have had cars in the past that it LOVED, but after a while I just want something different. Not everyone feels the same way I guess, but a lot of people do.

I think this was part of the problem with GM in terms of the sales of the last generation Camaro and Firebird. The buyers of those cars buy them in large part for style and the image they bring. You aren't going to get them to buy a new one when the brand new ones were hardly different than the old ones for 5-9 years. The same thing holds true with other types of cars, not just sporty coupes. The 'cutting edge' style may not be the most important thing in the compact SUV class, but when a buyer is in the market for a new vehicle, they are often going to migrate to brands that offer something 'new' in terms of styling. It seems its a typical part of the suburban lifestlye in America...to get something 'new and different' to park in the front of your yard to impress the neighbors.

[SLAPSHOT]

I personally don't care if it's a 50 year old design. Make a brand new 62 Chevy with A/C, power steering and brakes, and I'll be first in line for it. I want a vehicle that get the job done, not the fad styling or fad options of the moment. I have a 72 Chevelle SS convertible. That car is 35 years old, and I don't think ANYBODY has made an any better looking car yet. My dad and I own an 82 Chevy K20 pickup. A real heavy duty sucker, out of Arizona-no rust. Works fantastic, has everything we need. I don't think I would buy a new truck even if I could. We spend so much time CHANGING things in this world, we never PERFECT anything.

So I guess you still use an abacus as opposed to a calculator then? It's ludicrous to think that vehicles shouldn't evolve with technology.

[mrwag]

I'd prefer the current model, personally. I was one of the very early Saturn fans when they first came out, and to see a Saturn made in Mexico with a steel body... it just rubs me wrong. Plus I liked how the original VUE was a little macho, with squared off edges and not a rounded jelly-bean, like the new VUE will be.

[20VUE06]

We spend so much time CHANGING things in this world, we never PERFECT anything.

I dunno... My ice cube trays in my freezer work pretty well. :yes:

Just kidding...;)

[greyhound bus]

I agree with your sentiment. I have had cars in the past that it LOVED, but after a while I just want something different. Not everyone feels the same way I guess, but a lot of people do.

I think this was part of the problem with GM in terms of the sales of the last generation Camaro and Firebird. The buyers of those cars buy them in large part for style and the image they bring. You aren't going to get them to buy a new one when the brand new ones were hardly different than the old ones for 5-9 years. The same thing holds true with other types of cars, not just sporty coupes. The 'cutting edge' style may not be the most important thing in the compact SUV class, but when a buyer is in the market for a new vehicle, they are often going to migrate to brands that offer something 'new' in terms of styling. It seems its a typical part of the suburban lifestlye in America...to get something 'new and different' to park in the front of your yard to impress the neighbors.

Well, explain how Porsche can succeed by selling a car that style wise has hardly changed for forty years? Why is everybody so high on the new Mustang, the coming Camaro, the Challenger, the PT Cruiser etc? I think all these cars are an admission that the designers haven't really been able to out do what was done years ago, so they just copy someone else's work. I thought the Gen III Camaro was a classic body style and we still own an 87. I wouldn't take a Gen IV if you gave it to me. GM built an ugly car that was overpriced, and damn near impossible to work on, and that's why we haven't had a Camaro or Firebird since 03'. Cars have to evolve, but evolution is usually smarter than revolution. As for new cars always being better than old ones, how about a guy that traded his "trusty" old S10 Blazer in on a 2002 Vue and got stuck with a VTI transmission? What about an AWD Vue that has been repaired five times? Do you think he would agree with that statement? The next major automotive disaster is always just one new model away. How does such horrible technology get into today's cars? I think it's because we leave ALL the testing to a damn computer and don't do any real world testing to speak of anymore. My company buys heavy trucks that are supposed to have "millions of miles" of road testing and product developement, but we buy them and stuff falls off or fails in the first week. Let someone else be the "test mule". GM's problem is that they build mediocre looking cars, with mediocre quality and lose money on every one they do manage to build and sell. Throwing away what actually works and moving on to the next "big thing" will not cure ANY of those problems. People buy Scions, which proves that a lot of people don't really care what a car looks like if it suits their needs and they feel it is a quality product.

[greyhound bus]

So I guess you still use an abacus as opposed to a calculator then? It's ludicrous to think that vehicles shouldn't evolve with technology.

Well, my family sure as hell didn't buy one until they had the bugs worked out a little. If I recall, it was about the size of a good sized TV remote, ran on a 9 volt battery and cost about $25 in the mid 70's. That was big money for the time, but a bargain compared to what the first ones cost. We didn't get a VCR until 84'. Totally missed out on the Beta fiasco and the crappy early top loaders. That old Zenith lasted about 17 years. I didn't buy a computer until the technology shook out quite a bit, and I still don't own an HD or plasma TV. Let all the other suckers pay thousands for unproven technology, and I'll move in and buy one for a fourth of the price that has a chance of actually lasting more than five years.

[Ritz]

If you can, I'd wait for the new one. These days, the 'getting the bugs out' of a new car thing is overblown. By the time a car is released, to me there doesn't seem to be a lot more problems or recalls in the first year than in the year after.

Heh. Tell that to all the "early adopters" that wound up with a VTI equipped VUE or the tens of thousands of folks that quickly chewed through the original RDM design...etc. Saturn (and GM) does not have a very good 1st model year track record. There's no way I'd risk it. As a matter of fact, I'd probably hold out for year 3 if you really want to be sure they haven't screwed the pooch again. Also, keep in mind that a financially struggling company is a lot more prone to cutting corners in the pursuit of cutting costs.

Cheers,

[fatabbot]

Well, explain how Porsche can succeed by selling a car that style wise has hardly changed for forty years? Why is everybody so high on the new Mustang, the coming Camaro, the Challenger, the PT Cruiser etc?

Umm, you can't answer your own question?

For the Porsche, it's because that same styling has become a trademark. As a brand, it has great prestige, so carrying over some styling cues is important.

As far as the Mustang/Camaro/Challenger, it really helps that those cars had style to begin with.

Keeping a rather dull, generic look such as the VUE (or any other Saturn) really isn't a winning combo. Especially when they've NEVER sold that well to begin with. If you have a winning formula, that's one thing. Saturn hasn't had a winning formula since its inception.

[cdp326]

Well, explain how Porsche can succeed by selling a car that style wise has hardly changed for forty years? Why is everybody so high on the new Mustang, the coming Camaro, the Challenger, the PT Cruiser etc? I think all these cars are an admission that the designers haven't really been able to out do what was done years ago, so they just copy someone else's work.
People aren't so high on the PT Cruiser now. Personally, I don't like retro design because it means the next generation might be SOL. What are they going to do for the next Mustang? Things like that. The new Pontiac GTO was ridiculed for looking boring, especially next to the new Mustang. Once upon a time, people would have loved the GTO for looking boring, considering what was underneath.

I thought the Gen III Camaro was a classic body style and we still own an 87. I wouldn't take a Gen IV if you gave it to me. GM built an ugly car that was overpriced, and damn near impossible to work on, and that's why we haven't had a Camaro or Firebird since 03'.
No, the reason there's no Camaro or Firebird since '03 is because that '03 wasn't much different than the Camaro or Firebird in '93. A lot of people like the design of those F-bodies. Styling is subjective. You like the designs of old cars; personally, I don't so much.

Cars have to evolve, but evolution is usually smarter than revolution. As for new cars always being better than old ones, how about a guy that traded his "trusty" old S10 Blazer in on a 2002 Vue and got stuck with a VTI transmission? What about an AWD Vue that has been repaired five times? Do you think he would agree with that statement? The next major automotive disaster is always just one new model away. How does such horrible technology get into today's cars? I think it's because we leave ALL the testing to a damn computer and don't do any real world testing to speak of anymore.
There wasn't enough real world testing of Saturns before--that's why there were AWD, VTi, and just plain VUE problems.

My company buys heavy trucks that are supposed to have "millions of miles" of road testing and product developement, but we buy them and stuff falls off or fails in the first week. Let someone else be the "test mule". GM's problem is that they build mediocre looking cars, with mediocre quality and lose money on every one they do manage to build and sell. Throwing away what actually works and moving on to the next "big thing" will not cure ANY of those problems. People buy Scions, which proves that a lot of people don't really care what a car looks like if it suits their needs and they feel it is a quality product.
Like I said, some people buy it because they DO like the design. You're forgetting that.

[fatabbot]

People buy Scions, which proves that a lot of people don't really care what a car looks like if it suits their needs and they feel it is a quality product.

:rolleyes:

Any more poor examples you'd like to throw out there?

Scion sales have dropped off substantially. The xB and xA don't have staying power, hence why they're being eliminated or restyled next model year.

You're another Bush supporter, I see. "Stay the course!" Or is that only ok for Saturn?

[cdp326]

Heh. Tell that to all the "early adopters" that wound up with a VTI equipped VUE or the tens of thousands of folks that quickly chewed through the original RDM design...etc. Saturn (and GM) does not have a very good 1st model year track record. There's no way I'd risk it. As a matter of fact, I'd probably hold out for year 3 if you really want to be sure they haven't screwed the pooch again. Also, keep in mind that a financially struggling company is a lot more prone to cutting corners in the pursuit of cutting costs.

Cheers,
Saturn didn't, but if you look at cars like the Malibu, Grand Prix, Lacrosse, Lucerne, Colorado/Canyon, Impala, G6, Cobalt, Equinox, Cadillac Sigma-based cars, etc., they all had good launches, and I don't remember hearing of any huge problems...certainly not like L/ION/VUE first year issues. They're struggling now for the mistakes they made years ago...don't forget that, now, they can't afford to make the same mistakes. What you say in that last sentence is true, but think about the other side there: they can't afford to make mistakes like the L, ION, and VUE launches again. They can't afford to have a reliability dud.

[greyhound bus]

No, the reason there's no Camaro or Firebird since '03 is because that '03 wasn't much different than the Camaro or Firebird in '93.

Those cars didn't set any sales records in 93' and 94' either. The cars had a fabulous drivetrain, but overall they strayed too far from their sales target. A LOT of people I know were put off by the styling. The price scared off most of the rest. The fact that they are extremely difficult to hot rod (an important consideration in that segment) sealed the deal. At that time it didn't make much sense to buy a Camaro when you could get a Vette for surprisingly little difference, especially a slightly used one. Ford stayed much more true to their target, and now they totally own that market segment. Just as in 67', Chevy will be playing catch-up.

[fatabbot]

The fact that they are extremely difficult to hot rod (an important consideration in that segment) sealed the deal.

Huh? No they're not.

Ford stayed much more true to their target, and now they totally own that market segment.

Actually, the main deciding factor behind the Mustang's continuing success even during the demise of the Camaro/Firebird was that it was easier to drive and was more comfortable. Females made up a huge portion of Mustang sales, enough to make the difference. Performance wise, Mustangs were severely outdone by the 93+ Camaro/Firebird.

[greyhound bus]

:rolleyes:

Scion sales have dropped off substantially.

The fact that they ever sold a single one with looks like that amazes me :dizzy:

[fatabbot]

The fact that they ever sold a single one with looks like that amazes me :dizzy:

Actually, I bet 90% of the xB's sold because of they're looks. They were trendy for a little while.

[Ritz]

Saturn didn't, but if you look at cars like the Malibu, Grand Prix, Lacrosse, Lucerne, Colorado/Canyon, Impala, G6, Cobalt, Equinox, Cadillac Sigma-based cars, etc., they all had good launches, and I don't remember hearing of any huge problems...certainly not like L/ION/VUE first year issues. They're struggling now for the mistakes they made years ago...don't forget that, now, they can't afford to make the same mistakes. What you say in that last sentence is true, but think about the other side there: they can't afford to make mistakes like the L, ION, and VUE launches again. They can't afford to have a reliability dud.

Call me superstitious, but all the examples of GM 1st year screwups you mention above were recent vintage Saturns. :)

Cheers,

[Ritz]

Huh? No they're not.



Actually, the main deciding factor behind the Mustang's continuing success even during the demise of the Camaro/Firebird was that it was easier to drive and was more comfortable. Females made up a huge portion of Mustang sales, enough to make the difference. Performance wise, Mustangs were severely outdone by the 93+ Camaro/Firebird.

Yup, as delivered off the showroom floor, the F-body was always a bit faster than the Mustang. I'll also agree that the Mustangs were a LOT more comfortable and had better ergonomics. For a daily driver, the Mustang was a much more tolerable vehicle.

I'm digging the new retro style since I always loved the 69-70 Boss Mustangs.

Cheers,

[fatabbot]

Yup, as delivered off the showroom floor, the F-body was always a bit faster than the Mustang. I'll also agree that the Mustangs were a LOT more comfortable and had better ergonomics. For a daily driver, the Mustang was a much more tolerable vehicle.

I'm digging the new retro style since I always loved the 69-70 Boss Mustangs.

Cheers,

My father has a new body style Mustang GT. That car sure is fun....

[bronzestarvue]

Actually, I bet 90% of the xB's sold because of they're looks. They were trendy for a little while.

I owned a 2005 xB, and traded it in on my 2006 VUE. I tell ya what, that xB, equipped with the 5-speed, TRD springs, 4-point chassis brace, upper strut tower bar, 22mm rear sway bar, DC Sports header, cold air intake, and 50-series tires handled like a go-cart, and got 35mpg while doing it! Can't beat a box design for maximizing space efficiency, and the rear seat had a LOT of room for a car that size. If that car had AWD, like they do in Japan, I probably would have kept it instead of trading it in.

I think from the beginning, at least for the xBs, that Scion was going to be retiring or restyling them after a few years anyway. I don't think a supposed drop in sales has anything to do with that, it was pre-destined before the first one ever hit the showrooms. Must've been Scion's way of keeping their designs "fresh", in appealing to the younger car-buying crowd. But I think the buyer demographics on the xB proved to be a surprise for them, in that a lot of "older" drivers bought them, as opposed to the "fast and furious" crowd that they were originally targeting.

But in getting back to the theme of this thread, I'd still opt for an 07, because of the longer warranty, polymer panels, and Honda V6. The 08 just doesn't seem to be a "true" Saturn anymore...

[greyhound bus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by greyhound bus
The fact that they are extremely difficult to hot rod (an important consideration in that segment) sealed the deal.

Huh? No they're not.

1)Have you ever pulled an engine out of one? It's not a job for the average guy in a garage.

2) The LT1/LT4 engine not a very friendly engine to hot rod. The gear drive water pump, front distributor and odd accessory drive makes part interchange more limited, difficult and EXPENSIVE.


Quote:
Originally Posted by greyhound bus
Ford stayed much more true to their target, and now they totally own that market segment.

Actually, the main deciding factor behind the Mustang's continuing success even during the demise of the Camaro/Firebird was that it was easier to drive and was more comfortable. Females made up a huge portion of Mustang sales, enough to make the difference. Performance wise, Mustangs were severely outdone by the 93+ Camaro/Firebird.

No arguement here that the F bodies would thrash a Mustang, but in the end, what good did it do GM? They couldn't sell enough cars because they didn't appeal to enough customers.

[fatabbot]

1)Have you ever pulled an engine out of one? It's not a job for the average guy in a garage.

2) The LT1/LT4 engine not a very friendly engine to hot rod. The gear drive water pump, front distributor and odd accessory drive makes part interchange more limited, difficult and EXPENSIVE.


:rolleyes:

Pulling an engine isn't "a job for the average guy in a garage" in any car.

Sure, they might be harder to work on than some models, but they are hardly "hard to hot rod". Implying that this is the reason they didn't sell well is laughable.


They couldn't sell enough cars because they didn't appeal to enough customers.

Which is exactly my point. What, exactly, are you arguing?

[kodak_jack]

I have to side with the bus on the Camaro argument. I really like the looks of the 93 to 03 Camaro, but would hate to have to do anything to one. Most of the engine is under the dash. I watched Horsepower TV "pull" the 350 out of a Z28 and it comes out the BOTTOM! ALL 1990 and above GM front wheel drive and other vehicles use a cradle that necessitates dropping the engine/tranny. You need to pull the passenger kick panel and remove the entire wiring harness from the dash to the engine/computer. The front suspension also came out with the cradle. As I've often said, the morons who design this crap need to get out there with a set of tools and try to work on the damned thing before the design is finalized. I like the styling of the mid 90's, but might be forced into the design before that just so I could work on it.
The Scion Xb is ugly, but you get a lot for your money. It's not a muscle car; it's an econobox. I could order one with running boards, spoke wheels, a rear spoiler and the color I want for $16,300. There are graphics packages for both inside and out, which I wouldn't want, but at least there are many options available that won't break the bank. Toyota is trying to address a marketing segment that doesn't require you to put down $50,000+, like GM does, just to be stylish (SSR, new Camaro, CTS, etc.).
Look at ALL of the small SUV/crossover vehicles out there. Put images of each on paper and look at them side by side. What do you see? They don't just resemble each other, they're ALL exactly alike!

[greyhound bus]

:rolleyes:

Pulling an engine isn't "a job for the average guy in a garage" in any car.


I don't know about "average" guys. I've been pulling engines since I was 14. Most of my friends are the same way. I just finished the chassis and drivetrain for a ground up restoration of a 57' Chevy.

[fatabbot]

I don't know about "average" guys. I've been pulling engines since I was 14.

See, you're not an average guy. You really think everyone has this experience, or even wishes to pull the engine from a Camaro?

No biggie here, we've gotten far off topic. Whether it's hard to pull an engine in one is irrelevant, the % of potential buyers that would do so is so small that it would have almost no effect on sales #'s.

[Ritz]

See, you're not an average guy. You really think everyone has this experience, or even wishes to pull the engine from a Camaro?

No biggie here, we've gotten far off topic. Whether it's hard to pull an engine in one is irrelevant, the % of potential buyers that would do so is so small that it would have almost no effect on sales #'s.

I would go as far to say that the number of buyers that can pull/replace an engine is so small as to be statistically insignificant.

Cheers,

[cdp326]

Call me superstitious, but all the examples of GM 1st year screwups you mention above were recent vintage Saturns. :)

Cheers,
:D Yes, I know, but also note that the ION and VUE were the first of their kind on their platforms, and the L-Series was the first to use the Ecotec I4. The VUE and ION were both the first (and only) to use the VTi. I think it's bad luck that Saturn got all those wonderful problems, but like I said, they can't afford to take chances.

Those cars didn't set any sales records in 93' and 94' either. The cars had a fabulous drivetrain, but overall they strayed too far from their sales target. A LOT of people I know were put off by the styling.
It was the 90s. The aero look was in, and the edged 80s squarish look was out (it was pretty much out before the 1980s themselves were). Plus, the previous models came out in 1982...they wouldn't have lasted forever. The 82-92 models probably wouldn't have fared much better, since they were getting on in years.
All cars are getting much harder to work on. Take a look at the 06+ Honda Civic...half the engine there is under the dash.

The Scion Xb is ugly, but you get a lot for your money. It's not a muscle car; it's an econobox. I could order one with running boards, spoke wheels, a rear spoiler and the color I want for $16,300. There are graphics packages for both inside and out, which I wouldn't want, but at least there are many options available that won't break the bank. Toyota is trying to address a marketing segment that doesn't require you to put down $50,000+, like GM does, just to be stylish (SSR, new Camaro, CTS, etc.).
No, Toyota found a way to make an econobox desirable (the xB is a redone Echo, which failed for them). Toyota was even surprised by the xB--they expected the xA to outsell the xB, but it's the other way around. I wouldn't get an xB because it doesn't offer side airbags.
What else does Toyota have that has desirable looks? Are the Yaris, Corolla, Camry, Avalon, etc. all desirable for their looks? The only non-Scion that one could say uses style is the FJ Crusier. Bland sells--hence, high sales of the Corolla and Camry.
The CTS starts at about $30k, IIRC. The new Camaro won't even touch $50k except with an arseload of modifications. (Heck, a Corvette doesn't even start at $50k.) They also use the style card in the HHR, the Aura, the new Malibu, etc. The SSR was a niche car, not meant to be workaday like a Scion. (The SSR, IMO, was also a bad idea. Pointless, and everybody made fun of them for making it, after they told GM to make it.)
I think people are getting a bit too concerned with style, at least with the GTO it was.

[MJD1001]

Well, explain how Porsche can succeed by selling a car that style wise has hardly changed for forty years? Why is everybody so high on the new Mustang, the coming Camaro, the Challenger, the PT Cruiser etc? I think all these cars are an admission that the designers haven't really been able to out do what was done years ago, so they just copy someone else's work. I thought the Gen III Camaro was a classic body style and we still own an 87. I wouldn't take a Gen IV if you gave it to me. GM built an ugly car that was overpriced, and damn near impossible to work on, and that's why we haven't had a Camaro or Firebird since 03'. Cars have to evolve, but evolution is usually smarter than revolution. As for new cars always being better than old ones, how about a guy that traded his "trusty" old S10 Blazer in on a 2002 Vue and got stuck with a VTI transmission? What about an AWD Vue that has been repaired five times? Do you think he would agree with that statement? The next major automotive disaster is always just one new model away. How does such horrible technology get into today's cars? I think it's because we leave ALL the testing to a damn computer and don't do any real world testing to speak of anymore. My company buys heavy trucks that are supposed to have "millions of miles" of road testing and product developement, but we buy them and stuff falls off or fails in the first week. Let someone else be the "test mule". GM's problem is that they build mediocre looking cars, with mediocre quality and lose money on every one they do manage to build and sell. Throwing away what actually works and moving on to the next "big thing" will not cure ANY of those problems. People buy Scions, which proves that a lot of people don't really care what a car looks like if it suits their needs and they feel it is a quality product.

I'm don't have the time to respond to your entire post, but you bring up very specific examples to a generals statement. Very specific examples are good, but they are exceptions to the rule...in that there are more examples in terms of volume of sales than the ones you brought up.

The reason for the Mustang, new Camaro, Challenger looking optimistic is not because they look just like they did in the past...but rather because they look just like they did in the past and that is TOTALLY DIFFERENT than they have looked since then. If anything, it further illustrates the need for change. If the Mustang and Camaro and Charger/Challenger had not changed their styling at all in the past 30+ years, I'd beg to differ in thinking that most people would be sick of those designs. The very thing that makes them work is that there aren't 2 million of them around on the roads right now and they are different from what was around in the past decade.