Why Don't You Want a Mexican VUE - Part II

[spencerb]

Now pick your top reason why you don't want the VUE made in Mexico. If you don't care, then refrain from voting.

[GB1]

Not to slam Mexico or Mexicans or anything (and I'm not just making a pc disclaimer), but there are some quality issues that need to be addressed when assembling something as complicated as a car with thousands of pieces in Mexico.

I live in the San Diego area and there's a fair amt of manufacturing here and many companies use (or used) the Maquiladora plants over the border. Although they seem to work out fine for things like televisions and such (you might not have noticed that your TV might have been assembled in Mexico), a lot of firms have had a very bad time trying to manufactur a quality product there. Quality is not yet a concept that is engrained in Mexican culture. The level of education there is quite low on average, and many of the workers at the plants are from poor farm villages and have little to no mechanical experience (many seem bewildered while even driving cars, to give an example). Again, ,this is not to insult anyone there, but to just bring the facts to the surface.

I was recently talking with a woman in a line and she said that she had worked for a co. manufacturing cell phones who tried to change their business plan to "design in the U.S.A., manufacture in Mexico." She said that it didn't work out, that the workers were not manufacturing a quality product and that part of the problem was that workers would come in from poor villages, work for 4 months and then quit and move back to their villages for the next 8 months and live off their savings till that ran out, then move back and do that again. It meant that they never really learned their job. She said that the co. was now moving manufacturing to somewhere else, like China.

Well something as large and complicated as a car or truck, I see this being a lot harder to do right than cell phones. It will take a lot to get the quality right and up to American standards. I hope the planners and managers etc have taken this fact into consideration.....?

Also - any idea what will happen to the Spring Hill plant now?

GB

[Dorian]

Not to slam Mexico or Mexicans or anything (and I'm not just making a pc disclaimer), but there are some quality issues that need to be addressed when assembling something as complicated as a car with thousands of pieces in Mexico.


This article might startle you. http://www.drtomorrow.com/lessons/lessons3/31.html

Specifically, "California research group, J.D. Power & Associates, in their annual report on such developments rated Ramos Arizpe Numero Uno among G.M. plants, which averages 86 glitches per 100 cars. The current industry average in the entire U.S. auto industry is 140 glitches, down dramatically from a few years ago. The Ramos Arizpe plant produces Buick Centurys and Chevrolet Cavaliers. Not just for Mexico. These cars are now sold in the U.S. and Canada -- 234,895 last year to be exact. Buyers of these models are the luckiest of all General Motors buyers, because their vehicles were made in Mexico. Fewer than eight percent of all U.S. buyers of these models had any claims against the warranties! The brutal fact is that either of these Mexican-made models is a better buy than an identical car made in Ste. Therese, Quebec or in Oklahoma City."

[twosaturns]

I remember something a VW tech told me about warranty issues on the new beetle. everything in the mexican VW plant was done out in an open floor plan building, almost open air. they would find bird crap on computer boards!
we have no no one to blame for outsourcing but Americans ourselves. it is Americans making these decisions to give away American jobs. and Americans want cheap products at the same time as wanting high wages. it isn't rocket science to figure out that paying UAW union wages and benefits is going to result in lower profits/higher cost product than setting up shop across the border.

[GB1]

This article might startle you. http://www.drtomorrow.com/lessons/lessons3/31.html

Specifically, "California research group, J.D. Power & Associates, in their annual report on such developments rated Ramos Arizpe Numero Uno among G.M. plants, which averages 86 glitches per 100 cars. The current industry average in the entire U.S. auto industry is 140 glitches, down dramatically from a few years ago. The Ramos Arizpe plant produces Buick Centurys and Chevrolet Cavaliers. Not just for Mexico. These cars are now sold in the U.S. and Canada -- 234,895 last year to be exact. Buyers of these models are the luckiest of all General Motors buyers, because their vehicles were made in Mexico. Fewer than eight percent of all U.S. buyers of these models had any claims against the warranties! The brutal fact is that either of these Mexican-made models is a better buy than an identical car made in Ste. Therese, Quebec or in Oklahoma City."

Dorian -

It does indeed surprise me. I'm pleasantly surprised but would like to see more than one report to get a better sampling... I guess I'll play the skeptic here. And yeah twosaturns I've heard reports of poor quality VWs from Mexico... I'd forgotten about that.

GB

[Dorian]

Dorian -

It does indeed surprise me. I'm pleasantly surprised but would like to see more than one report to get a better sampling... I guess I'll play the skeptic here. And yeah twosaturns I've heard reports of poor quality VWs from Mexico... I'd forgotten about that.

GB

The problem with finding any evidence for or against quality vehicle manufacturing in Mexico is that most articles are politically motivated. The only one I could find pro or con without some other agenda was the JD Power report referenced above.

As far as the VW quality from Mexico goes, I wonder if there is anything more to back that negative slant other than folks on bulletin boards. My wife has a Mexican assembled Jetta and has never had a single issue with it. I don't peruse any Jetta forums because, quite frankly, the Jetta is running perfectly and we have no desire to modify it.

I also owned a Sebring that I traded in at 160,000 miles that was a Mexican made Chrysler. Quality was definitely not an issue with that convertible.

My concern is that folks might tend to judge quality on something that hasn't even been produced yet and base their opinions on hear-say and emotional issues. Nationalism seems to be more more of the motivation than any real quality issues.

[GB1]

The problem with finding any evidence for or against quality vehicle manufacturing in Mexico is that most articles are politically motivated. The only one I could find pro or con without some other agenda was the JD Power report referenced above.

As far as the VW quality from Mexico goes, I wonder if there is anything more to back that negative slant other than folks on bulletin boards. My wife has a Mexican assembled Jetta and has never had a single issue with it. I don't peruse any Jetta forums because, quite frankly, the Jetta is running perfectly and we have no desire to modify it.

I also owned a Sebring that I traded in at 160,000 miles that was a Mexican made Chrysler. Quality was definitely not an issue with that convertible.

My concern is that folks might tend to judge quality on something that hasn't even been produced yet and base their opinions on hear-say and emotional issues. Nationalism seems to be more more of the motivation than any real quality issues.

Good post, and point takens. I guess the only way to know is try it and see. I agree that a lot of reports aren't very objective - seems writers always take a side, one way or the other.

However, my pt really was is that setting up shop in Mexico to take advantage of the cheap labor there isn't as easy as it was once believed. Not that it's impossible. I've just heard so many stories of how difficult it is to get Mexican workers to comprehend quality; I guess we'll see.

[GR898SL2]

Also - any idea what will happen to the Spring Hill plant now?

GB

ION and VUE production will cease at the end of 1Q 2007 (March 31). VUE is going to Mexico and Astras will be imported from Europe. Spring Hill's short-term future is Ecotec engine production. What happens long-term is the stuff of speculation. Only GM knows for sure, and that's a disquieting thought. :rolleyes:

:flag:

[BobbyP]

spencerb - You should added a vote option for All of the Above reasons. I believe they're all good and appropriate reasons not to build the VUE in Mexico.

[VTHokie00SL2]

spencerb - You should added a vote option for All of the Above reasons. I believe they're all good and appropriate reasons not to build the VUE in Mexico.

I agree. Put me down for all of the above!

[spencerb]

spencerb - You should added a vote option for All of the Above reasons. I believe they're all good and appropriate reasons not to build the VUE in Mexico.The point of this thread is to find your most important reason. The other poll has an option to select as many choices as you want.

This poll will more effectively show the major and minor reasons people have for disagreeing with the decision to move production to Mexico.

[JPG]

Biased again...If you're gonna make a poll don't only put suggestions that you like...

[twosaturns]

The problem with finding any evidence for or against quality vehicle manufacturing in Mexico is that most articles are politically motivated. The only one I could find pro or con without some other agenda was the JD Power report referenced above.

As far as the VW quality from Mexico goes, I wonder if there is anything more to back that negative slant other than folks on bulletin boards. My wife has a Mexican assembled Jetta and has never had a single issue with it. I don't peruse any Jetta forums because, quite frankly, the Jetta is running perfectly and we have no desire to modify it.

I also owned a Sebring that I traded in at 160,000 miles that was a Mexican made Chrysler. Quality was definitely not an issue with that convertible.

My concern is that folks might tend to judge quality on something that hasn't even been produced yet and base their opinions on hear-say and emotional issues. Nationalism seems to be more more of the motivation than any real quality issues.
most people never let the truth get in the way of their perception. we all have biases; and as as someone in the semiconductor industry, I grow weary of American production moving overseas AFTER it was domestically designed/engineered/proven.
case in point:
I worked at a company that is a leader in RFID and bar code readers. part of my job was to test new production that came in from our supplier in Malaysia. they were all tuned incorrectly, I mean like upwards of hundreds of sub components. it took about a week of communications to figure out what was going wrong. I figured it out, they didn't understand simple decimal point placement and were tuning the frequency 10 TIMES TOO HIGH. now, how much money did the company really save by moving production overseas, when they could have just had it built the right way from the people who originally did it?
imported items are notoriously hard to get replacement parts for, which, along with the low cost of the item, fills up our landfills quicker. why bother trying to fix a $25 DVD player? who can afford to try? and, even if someone does crack it open, where would you get replacement parts?
i worked a summer at home depot, and every year, they sell out all the gas grills they can build. why? where are all the grills sold the years previous? is it all going to new suburbanites? no, people throw out their chinese made POS grills when they rust out or otherwise break after a season or two. OTOH, HD also sells Weber American Made grills. more expensive, yes, but they also sell out when people finally see the light and buy a quality American Made product that has excellent parts support (you can get ANY replacement part you need from Weber, and they have like a 10 year warranty).
professional cyclists train on 'rollers'. one brand- Kreitler- is known far and wide as 'the' one to get. why? because nothing else comes close to it's quality and servicability. their slogan (IIRC) is 'the bitterness of low quality lasts long after the sweetness of low price is past' (I don't think I got that right, but you get the idea).
what this all has to do w/ mexican VUEs is that, when given the choice between a imported car w/ a lot of features compared to a domestic made car w/ less features (all else being equal) most will choose the import, figuring they are getting a 'better deal'. but there is more to a car purchase than getting a 'good deal'. I want to get a car that isn't a 'throwaway'.

[Dorian]

what this all has to do w/ Mexican VUEs is that, when given the choice between a imported car w/ a lot of features compared to a domestic made car w/ less features (all else being equal) most will choose the import, figuring they are getting a 'better deal'. but there is more to a car purchase than getting a 'good deal'. I want to get a car that isn't a 'throwaway'.

I also work for an Engineering company that has gone off shore for much of their work. Resistance was high when the initial move was made but there have been pluses and minuses after the fact. Ultimately the move did positively impact the bottom line and kept the company in business, and therefore a lot of American jobs were saved (30,000). Quality has not been sacrificed and "follow the sun" production improvements expedited the product development cycle time line as well as innovation.

But we're comparing apples to oranges. We need to closely examine the recent history on vehicles being assembled in Mexico and their affect on quality as well as impact on the bottom line of the corporation making the decision. In spite of what we may hear on different forums about problematic vehicles, Mexican assembled vehicles have a pretty good record. The issues brought up about the Jetta made in Mexico quite frankly pale to the issues I've read on this forum about Saturns made in America. I don't think Saturns are pieces of junk, I think we simply see the impact of folks addressing issues more than extolling their satisfaction. Action and communication is rarely stimulated by satisfaction, but rather taken as a need to fix something.

To date I haven't heard of "throwaway" vehicles coming from Mexico. My personal experience has been the opposite (Jetta and Sebring). Speculation is fun but recent history in the automotive industry dictates that perhaps our speculation is influenced by factors other than facts?

More than anything, I look forward to this forum returning to discussions about the Saturn vehicles and not the merits (or lack of merit) of an international production sequence. I suspect it will take a few more weeks for the dust to settle. The decision has been made, all we can do is react and speak with our spending habits.

[spencerb]

Biased again...If you're gonna make a poll don't only put suggestions that you like...I personally don't like any of the choices. I don't have a problem with moving production of the VUE to Mexico. I compiled the poll choices from responses in other threads of this forum. All of the choices were independently listed by other members before I created this poll.

What I'm trying to do is to get an idea of the reasons behind the disagreement to GM's decision. This poll is a way to compile the complaints to determine the most important ones to Saturn fans.

And I did not vote in this poll, because it doesn't apply to me, since I don't care about Mexican production of the VUE.

[SLAPSHOT]

Don't you think calling it a "Mexican Vue" is totally ridiculous? You guys are trippin' and taking this incredibly too far. So it may be built in Mexico, just like your TV, DVD player, coffee pot, microwave, shoes, shirts, blah blah blah etc. etc. etc. Sheesh :rolleyes: :rolleyes: