Mexican built VUE - Do you care?

[BobbyP]

Do you care whether or not your VUE is made in the US or Mexico?

[10974]

Here's another question, Does big blue ( GM) read this what is writen on here at Saturnfan.com? Do they care???
Hummmm....

[s-seriesguy]

I care if it's made in mexico or not. Who the hell wants an American branded car that s produced in mexico, I wouldn't. Then again I think GM totally screwed up the '08 Vue, and that it looks like dog *****. I would never even consider getting one to begin with.

[wolfman]

As the UAW has made it viruality impossible for a manufacturer to build cars in he US with any hope of a profit, or sustainable market share level, I guess we will have to get used to the idea of "foriegn made" US cars.....or simply buy US made "foriegn" cars........

Given the choice...I'll take the later, as it is the MANAGEMENT that is the problem at a far greater level than the folks turning the wrenches.

[pisulino]

Resistance is Futile..............you will be assimilated !!

[montrealvue]

Do I care? No, not really. I've been a "Saturn fan" since 1993 and yes, I do feel some sadness for how things have changed. But, if I want to see more Saturns on the road in the future I understand that the way Saturn does business has to change. I would buy a Mexican built Vue due to the fact that it is unproven that it will be a substandard product. I don't think anyone can say a Mexican pair of hand is less than a pair of American hands. It all comes down to how production is managed.

[Dorian]

Theoretically, I care. But the two best cars I've ever owned were both built in Mexico... a Chrysler Sebring Convertible and a VW Jetta. The worst vehicles I ever owned were built in America, a Harley Davidson Electraglide and a Chevy Van 10. Oh, and a Porsche 911SC built in Germany was a POS as well.

So I'm not worried about the quality of Mexican built, US engineered vehicles. But I do have issues with the USA exporting all of its manufacturing a production capabilities.

[rossao1]

As the UAW has made it viruality impossible for a manufacturer to build cars in he US with any hope of a profit, or sustainable market share level, I guess we will have to get used to the idea of "foriegn made" US cars.....or simply buy US made "foriegn" cars........

Given the choice...I'll take the later, as it is the MANAGEMENT that is the problem at a far greater level than the folks turning the wrenches.

I agree. It is the basic greed factor of people in general. Management is greedy for the company profit sharing, the hourly worker is greedy for a good pay check, the consumer is greedy to keep his paycheck, the mexicans are greedy for any paycheck at all, etc, etc, etc.

I say GM has lost its pride. Oh wait! Only people have pride. Corporations know of nothing beyond profits and losses.

but what I highly object to is the GM thinking of only how to build a car the cheapest way possible. Versus building the best car possible. There is a Big difference. IMHO the orignal Saturn/Springhill had that pride and quality thinking. Planned obsolence is nothing more than a big waste. Imagine if car were truly made to last forever, and not be a "fashion" item.

[fatabbot]

Imagine if car were truly made to last forever, and not be a "fashion" item.

And that would help GM sell cars how? No one would ever HAVE to buy a new one ;)

[DeMAN]

How is it that the foriegn manufacturers are able to open plant here and we can't keep our opened?

[Ritz]

How is it that the foriegn manufacturers are able to open plant here and we can't keep our opened?

You can thank the UAW (mostly) and to a lesser degree the poor management of the domestic car companies.

Personally, I have no conceptual problem with offshoring manufacturing, whether it's cars or computers or sneakers. It's just a business decision. However, my personal experience with the quality of vehicles produced in Mexico hasn't been positive. The same goes for China (though they are quickly getting better).

Cheers,

[sixsigma]

How is it that the foriegn manufacturers are able to open plant here and we can't keep our opened?

Starts with a "U" and ends with "nions".

Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, BMW, and Mercedes have all figured out how to be profitable with the best workers around - right here in the States. There is only one difference between their work forces and GM's.

So now what is most important if someone wants to buy "American"? Where the workers are located or the headquarters? We struggle with that but are siding with the workers.

[Charlie]

I understand there's a lot of emotion surrounding this topic, but there's no reason to post derogatory comments here. Its inappropriate and they will be deleted.

Thank you!
Charlie

[piney]

So now what is most important if someone wants to buy "American"? Where the workers are located or the headquarters? We struggle with that but are siding with the workers.


They are still able to "Buy American", just Central American rather than North American... :dazed: :us:

The UAW carries a lot of this blame, can't argue with you on that. The were destined to demand their way right out of jobs & they were successful.

[mellissam]

They are still able to "Buy American", just Central American rather than North American... :dazed: :us:

The UAW carries a lot of this blame, can't argue with you on that. The were destined to demand their way right out of jobs & they were successful.

I agree with the latter, but I wouldn't excactly blame them...after all it is the membership that tells the union what to do.

Buy America is sentamentalist talk....people buy what is preceived as the best money can buy. I'd buy all American (US) if they sold the best stuff, and some things they do, and well, when it comes to cars they have some work to do....Now with my VUE, I consider it the best for the money (knock on wood)...polymer, bullet-proof engine and tranny :canada: and assembled in the US :us: . What I'd really like to know, is how much of the current VUE is made in the US and Canada? I was reading an article of how GM is in trouble because of health care costs and pensions are adding several thousand to the cost of a car, and that is what is killing them right now. If they didn't have that overhead, I doubt they'd move assembly, because that is what we are talking about, right?

[Venomized]

I do not care where the 08 Vue is made. I just bought an 06, will I be in the market for another at that time? Probably not. Does that matter? Not 1 bit. If I were in the market I would buy the Vue if that is what I wanted at that time.

It has only been a couple of days since the announcement. I am sick and fu@#$^ing tire about reading about it. The decision has been made, you won't change GMs mind.

I wish the admin folks would lock all these childish threads and quit beating the deadhorse.

[20VUE06]

I wish the admin folks would lock all these childish threads and quit beating the deadhorse.

I agree with your comment about these similar threads becoming somewhat repetetive, but this is a forum, and this is what a forum is for.

I have to completely disagree with your statement about Charlie locking the "childish threads." There is no reason to "lock" or "edit" a thread like this unless posts within it become abusive. I'll say again, this is a forum. It is a place for people to ask questions, provide feedback, do research, vent, etc...but all in a respectful and civil manner. Am I getting tired of similar points and counterpoints being posted? Maybe a little, but I enjoy most posts in threads like this because I like to hear what others have to say - whether their opinion is on par with mine or not.

If you don't want to read about where the new '08 will be built, stop reading the threads with titles indicating subject matter that bothers you.

[2Fast4U]

My favorite thing... the whole John Cougar Mellencamp GM/Chevy ad campiagn. Haha. Hilarious.

So here you have it.

Producing the VUE in Mexico is going to go over like a fart in church.

[cdp326]

The choices are a bit trick.
Yes, I care, and yes, I'd rather see it manufactured in the US, but I wouldn't be stopped from buying it so long as it met my needs.
To those that assume the quality will go down...
The Buick Rendezvous is built at Ramos Arizpe and has been a good vehicle in quality and reliability the past few years. Probably better than the US-built U-body minivans that it was based off of, and the Rendezvous launched in 2002. The infamous Pontiac Aztek, similar to the Rendezvous and built in the same place, had its problems, but they weren't related to the build quality.
The Ford Fusion/siblings are built in Mexico and have been great in quality. In contrast, Ford had to stop and fix issues for a smooth launch for the Ford Edge/Lincoln MKX crossovers, which are based on the Fusion/siblings but built in the US.
The 2008 VUE will be a first-year model, so there's always the first year precaution. Remember, the 2002 VUE wasn't/isn't known for stellar record either.

[VTHokie00SL2]

Saturn has taken every last thing away that made it something worthy of being a "fan" of the company, imo. Unique management and labor structure - gone. Independent design staff - gone. Spaceframe construction with dent resistant body panels - gone. Manufactured in the United States - gone. What's left? Am I so brainwashed into having some kind of brand loyalty that I'll buy anything with four wheels and an engine, as long as it's got a Saturn logo on it? Heck no!

[ketch]

Quality may suffer. Just Ask VW. In fact thiers suffered so much, that now much of thier production was moved back to Germany.
Saw the new Vue at the LA show. Smaller for sure, and no way as good looking as the Antares. Super disapointed.

[cdp326]

Saturn has taken every last thing away that made it something worthy of being a "fan" of the company, imo. Unique management and labor structure - gone. Independent design staff - gone. Spaceframe construction with dent resistant body panels - gone. Manufactured in the United States - gone. What's left? Am I so brainwashed into having some kind of brand loyalty that I'll buy anything with four wheels and an engine, as long as it's got a Saturn logo on it? Heck no!
Are you trying to imply that some of us are brainwashed into buying any Saturn? Thanks....:ugh: There may not be anything to make you a fan, but that does not mean none of us can be fans. Regardless of what you may think, it's still possible to be a "fan" and not be a blind follower. There are plenty of fans of cars as simple as a four-cylinder Toyota Camry LE--a car that is probably the highest selling individual vehicle outside of trucks/SUVs. Even brands and cars without a history such as Saturn, without a history as tumultous as Saturn's has been lately, without the same significance Saturn had, can have a large fan base, even without clearly defining unique features. I don't think many (if any) of the "new Saturn haters" really understand--they only see defining features and can't see themselves liking anything else. Which is fine, but when it starts to be demeaning to the new aspect of the brand as well as the continuing customers (such as your post), you have to wonder.
There are still things like the buying experience, which I know some of you love to point at the continuing fans and snicker because of this and say "You only buy a car once every few years!" Well, yes, but in the past three and 3/4 years with a metal bodied van we have, there is only one dent, with a paint chip at the center of that. There was also only one dent in a previous van, owned for five years (except in the corner of the bumper that was plastic). So wouldn't it be equally foolish to say that something as coveted as polymer would be useless for us? It's not like we even tried to keep it ding-free. Anything it seems a fan of the new finds to like, there is a fan of the old...and hater of the new...right there to make fun of it.
My SC2 is, of course, polymer paneled, but doesn't look like new. The alloy wheels are tarnished, the pinstripes are fading/faded, some weatherstripping is fading/chipping off, there are scratches in the spoiler and around the keyholes, and paint has chipped off the bumper top edges. The front lower fascia is a different shade of paint than above it and not quite perfectly aligned. (Accident free, as far as Carfax and I know.) I don't have anybody come up to me and say "That car looks like new!" New cars have since matched in safety...and would probably be safer than my car, in things like side and rear impacts. Saturn may be absorbed into GM, they may not be as unique as they once were, and you may not feel the same way about them anymore...but that's no reason for anybody that likes the old Saturn and would buy a new Saturn "brainwashed," a "fanboy," or anything of the sort. It's adapt or die, and Saturn chose to adapt. Had they died, would there be as many jobs since there would be less people to design/build/sell/service the cars? Even if they've changed this much and will be building Saturns outside of the US (although the powertrains won't necessarily be built outside--still haven't heard on that yet), there are still more jobs than were Saturn to simply wither and die, productless.

Quality may suffer. Just Ask VW. In fact thiers suffered so much, that now much of thier production was moved back to Germany.
No, a lot of VWs with quality problems were made in Germany, too. Both VW and Audi have seen drops in quality/reliability in recent years. VW produced the Passat in Europe all along, and no Audis have been or are built in Mexico AFAIK.

Saw the new Vue at the LA show. Smaller for sure, and no way as good looking as the Antares. Super disapointed.
The new VUE is maybe an inch smaller here and there, though it's not really any wider or narrower. I mainly hope that seat comfort, especially the rear, is improved--it's terrible on the old VUE. How is it not as good looking as the Antara? They are nearly identical. I would prefer a two-tone scheme of color like the Antara offers, but for the most part they are identical.

[Catbert]

As long as there is an option, I'll buy a car made in the US or Canada. Supporting North American workers is important to me. I'm not a super patriot, it's very pragmatic. We all need a healthy middle class, whether we know it, or not. I'll not be getting a new Vue anytime soon.

[VTHokie00SL2]

Are you trying to imply that some of us are brainwashed into buying any Saturn? Thanks....:ugh: There may not be anything to make you a fan, but that does not mean none of us can be fans. Regardless of what you may think, it's still possible to be a "fan" and not be a blind follower.

Fair enough, but what I'm suggesting is that GM is putting out a bunch of random, generic new vehicles for Saturn that don't really have any distinguishing features, and I think were it not for the Saturn badge, a lot of the members on this site wouldn't even take notice of these vehicles. The Aura could just as easily have been the new Dodge Stratus. The Sky, while a cool little car, looks like a mini Viper. The new VUE looks like a very generic SUV that could carry just about any badge. There is nothing particularly unique or innovative about the new Saturn line, imo. I would describe it as generic, bland, and uninspired. Again, that's just my opinion. If the "buying experience" is what defines Saturn for you, I can understand that.

When I think of what Saturn could have been, it's kind of sad to see what it has become. Had Saturn been able to design and engineer its own midsize car, complete with polymer panels and with the original Saturn's sporty character, I'd almost certainly be driving one now. As it is, I think I'm leaning toward the Subaru Legacy for my next car.

[Bullet]

I'm buying from Japan before Mexico.
Who has the most experience?

:xeye:

[mellissam]

........There is nothing particularly unique or innovative about the new Saturn line, imo. .....

That's what I agree with....I care where it is assembled, but the bottom line is innovation and being unique; my VUE is unique and innovative amongst the plethora of choices out there....The buying experience is fine and all, but again, it's the product that sells...reminds me of Ipod, KitchenAid Mixer, and other products that are unique amongst the fray (accordingly they are #1). Saturn had that, now they don't. People yammer about the profitability, that Saturn was flowing red....I blame marketing, not the product. So, instead of fixing the marketing end, GM makes the product more similar to other models in its stable. That will kill Saturn. Sure, they are playing the European inspired card, but they are up against some pretty established brands. Funny, but now I am seeing some serious marketing efforts by GM to sell Saturns...not sure if it is was becasue I wasn't paying attention before, or they are being bolder (read: better marketers). The Polymer was its calling card, what does it have now? Rebadged Opel? I worry. Before I bought my first Saturn this summer, I thought of Saturn as being an 'out of this world car company', innovative, green, folksy, and quality.....not sure what to make of it now. The one bright patch is the GL, although there has been whining about its mpg (mind you, I like the concept, the innovation put into it).

[cdp326]

There is one thing that the new generation of Saturns have that the old ones didn't: the ability to compete without having to rely on things like polymer and a good dealer experience. For years the only couple things that always appeared in the "Pluses" or "Positives" or "Highs" or whatever box when about a Saturn, would be "Dent-resistant polymer panels, friendly dealers." Not much else. Now there are actually more reasons for the average customer to look at Saturn than just those.
What you described, VTHokie, is brand loyalty. It's hypocritical to say that about repeat customers of the new Saturn, and not those of the old Saturn. There are plenty of people that kept coming back to Saturn, even though the vehicles were never really top-notch or best-in-class.
Does the buying experience "define" Saturn for me, not really. What does, I'm not sure...however, I know that I like the new products very much.

[BobbyP]

There are plenty of people that kept coming back to Saturn, even though the vehicles were never really top-notch or best-in-class.
Does the buying experience "define" Saturn for me, not really. What does, I'm not sure...however, I know that I like the new products very much.

I've always heard that Saturn was selling a B+ car from a A+ dealer.

[jmcging]

The worst car ever owned was a Mexican built VW Beetle (daughter's car). Quality of workmanship and fit are terrible and while the folks who own the company are ultimately responsible, the fact that it came off an assembly line in such a poor condition has just made me leery of things built there.

So I'd prefer one built in the US.

[DesertPuma]

There are plenty of people that kept coming back to Saturn, even though the vehicles were never really top-notch or best-in-class.
Does the buying experience "define" Saturn for me, not really. What does, I'm not sure...however, I know that I like the new products very much.

I know you have heard this before, but to summarize "top notch" and "best in class" are not important considerations for me. To me that equates to "more expensive" (I expect the price of an Antara to be much higher than the current VUE, we shall see). I can get from Point A to Point B in a Saturn SW2 or a VW Beetle, just as easily as I could in a BMW, or Hummer. (Why buy a Rolex when a Timex can do the exact same thing, and probably last just as long? But again, that's JMHO.)

Inexpensive, reliable, safe, utilitarian but still stylish (not unsightly), simple to maintain, buying experience, and the icing on the cake dent resistance panels, that's what made Saturn great, now they are ordinary (and more expensive).

If that makes me cheap, than so be it, I prefer "frugal" or "cost conscience". :)

(People keep ragging on the polymer panels, but you hardly ever hear about the Corvette being criticized for fiberglass panels, polymer has a lot more give than fiberglass does. I don't now if Corvettes still use fiberglass or not, I sure remember seeing numerous hairline cracks and punched holes in a lot of those Corvettes from the '70s, yet no one laughed at them! Back then 20K or 30K for a car was an awful lot of money.)

[Dorian]

(People keep ragging on the polymer panels, but you hardly ever hear about the Corvette being criticized for fiberglass panels, polymer has a lot more give than fiberglass does. I don't now if Corvettes still use fiberglass or not, I sure remember seeing numerous hairline cracks and punched holes in a lot of those Corvettes from the '70s, yet no one laughed at them! Back then 20K or 30K for a car was an awful lot of money.)

When the Corvette came out with the unitized Fiberglass body it was mainly for weight management (high performance) and to achieve a body design to which sheet metal couldn't conform. They weren't worrying about shopping carts and such. Oddly enough, the only difference between the '52 Corvette and other Chevys was the fiberglass body, the rest of the car was no different than the other chevys.

And if you haven't heard the "laughter" about the fiberglass Corvette bodies then you haven't been listening. But I've always been a fan of repairing dings with a fiberglass kit.

[DesertPuma]

And if you haven't heard the "laughter" about the fiberglass Corvette bodies then you haven't been listening. But I've always been a fan of repairing dings with a fiberglass kit.

I think in the very beginning that was true (especially after the first one that rolled off the assembly line in the '50s wouldn't start because the electrical system wasn't grounded properly...doh!), but it became accepted by critics and the public in time. I don't how long it took, but AFAIK the 'Vette continued using the fiberglass bodies throughout it's production.

It seems that Saturn's polymer panels have never been accepted by the general public and critics, does that seem fair? Is it just because the 'Vette, just happens to be a sports car, so they "turned the other cheek" (so to speak)?

Just asking.

[Dorian]

I can't stop chuckling when trying to compare a Saturn to a Corvette, so I'll bow out at this point. I mean, I love my Saturn.... but c'mon!:whoa:

[DesertPuma]

I can't stop chuckling when trying to compare a Saturn to a Corvette, so I'll bow out at this point. I mean, I love my Saturn.... but c'mon!:whoa:

I rest my case. A car is a car.

[BobbyP]

When the Corvette came out with the unitized Fiberglass body it was mainly for weight management (high performance) and to achieve a body design to which sheet metal couldn't conform.

I was always amazed how well they made the bodies of the 1959 GM cars, like the wings on the Impala and Cadillac. I'm sure there was a lot of headaches getting everything matched.

[davidsky]

Here's another question, Does big blue ( GM) read this what is writen on here at Saturnfan.com? Do they care???
Hummmm....
Yes, Charlie has been mentioned by name in Saturn marketing publications.

[davidsky]

How is it that the foriegn manufacturers are able to open plant here and we can't keep our opened?
Because Honda and Toyota don't have to pay people $25 per hour to sweep floors and screw screws.

[davidsky]

Quality may suffer. Just Ask VW. In fact thiers suffered so much, that now much of thier production was moved back to Germany.
Saw the new Vue at the LA show. Smaller for sure, and no way as good looking as the Antares. Super disapointed.

German reliability is worse and the VUE and Antara look identical.

[davidsky]

As long as there is an option, I'll buy a car made in the US or Canada. Supporting North American workers is important to me. I'm not a super patriot, it's very pragmatic. We all need a healthy middle class, whether we know it, or not. I'll not be getting a new Vue anytime soon.

What about the Mexican middle class?

[davidsky]

I would describe it as generic, bland, and uninspired.
Generic, bland, uninspired sells better if it is built with quality.
You're an engineer, come up with a polymer body panel (say a door) that doesn't vibrate or make noise at 100 mph with a 10 mph crosswind and also doesn't shrink or expand more than 1/3 of a millimeter in all temperatures and weighs and costs less than steel.

[VTHokie00SL2]

What about the Mexican middle class?

There isn't much of one. That's one of the characteristics of a third world country.

[John10]

When I think of what Saturn could have been, it's kind of sad to see what it has become. Had Saturn been able to design and engineer its own midsize car, complete with polymer panels and with the original Saturn's sporty character, I'd almost certainly be driving one now.

Yeah its sad all right but not for the reasons you focus on. The problem with Saturn as it was (and how I too liked it best) was that it didn't turn an adequate profit and return on investment. I have come to the conclusion that few if any small undercapitalized auto manufaturers could have done any different in that contemporary cut throat vehicle market. We constantly hear how GM should have "given" Saturn more products and more capital earlier. While that may be basically true it is just one more indicator of why Saturn couldn't have been more economically successful as an independent entity. It reminds me of a middle aged adult giving excuses for his relative lack of success not by analysing his own actions but by blaming it on the fact that his parents didn't kick start his life by "giving" him more money when he was in his twenties. Well GM has finally decided to put some serious money into Saturn and now Saturn will have to do things in the way GM believes vehicles should be manufactured in 2007 and beyond. That is the trade off for the increased capital investment in Saturn that I think we all agree was needed. Money talks and only time will tell if GM got it right in today's marketplace.

[spencerb]

There isn't much of one. That's one of the characteristics of a third world country.Ummm... Mexico is not a "third world" country. It isn't even close.

[montrealvue]

There isn't much of one. That's one of the characteristics of a third world country.

I wish Carlos Mencia could answer that for you....man, that's some material for stand up comedy right there! :D Third World?.......lmao.

[kmarasco]

Not likely that I would buy any vehicle made in Mexico. Mexico is at the bottom of my list. I bought my Saturn largely because it was US built. Don't even like the fact that many of the parts are made there. I'd rather put my money with the Japanese than Mexico.

[greyhound bus]

Ummm... Mexico is not a "third world" country. It isn't even close.

If tons of people are willing to risk death to escape a country, chances are it's a third world country. After talking to friends that have gone down there to trouble shoot in the American owned factories, pretty much everything they describe is third world. From luxury hotels behide razor wire fences, armed body guards to escort you from the hotel to the plant, and dead bodies seen laying in the gutter, what world would you describe it?

[spencerb]

If tons of people are willing to risk death to escape a country, chances are it's a third world country. After talking to friends that have gone down there to trouble shoot in the American owned factories, pretty much everything they describe is third world. From luxury hotels behide razor wire fences, armed body guards to escort you from the hotel to the plant, and dead bodies seen laying in the gutter, what world would you describe it?Dead bodies in the gutters, eh? Sounds like a bit of an exaggeration.

Go to Mexico for yourself, then go to someplace like Haiti. You'll see that Mexico is pretty well off.

The classification of a country as "industrialized," "developing," "third world," etc. is largely based on the Human Development Index, a measure of standard of living and well-being used by the UN.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

BTW the US ranks #8.

[greyhound bus]

None of the things I mentioned, including the body in the street were exaggerated. That was witnessed by my cousin when he worked for Eagle Picher Plastics. As for using a United Nations rating, you mean the UN where EVERYTHING is America's fault? The UN is a joke. The fact that they ranked the US 8th is all you really need to know about the UN. If it were up to me we would withdraw from the UN and evict them from New York City. Mexico has a few wealthy people, VERY few middle class people and a LOT of very poor people, and that is EXACTLY the way those in power want it to stay. If the United States ever succeeds in raising the Mexican poor's standard of living too far, there will be a lot of wealthy and influential Mexicans bent out of shape about it.

[fatabbot]

While Mexico could be called a 3rd world nation, it's not as bad as you're making it out to be. Go see if for yourself. If you want to see a true third world nation to our south, try Guatemala, Columbia, etc.

From the horror stories you hear from other people about parts of the U.S., you'd think we were a poor nation, too. :rolleyes:

[greyhound bus]

I'll agree that there are a LOT of places worse than Mexico, but if we're using a three tier system, then I would rate them no higher than a low two. As for America, the difference here is oppertunity. Here, high school drop-outs can become billionaires. The poor people here are the richest poor people in the world, and 95% of the people that are truly poor here need only to look in the mirror for the reason why.

[fatabbot]

I'll agree that there are a LOT of places worse than Mexico, but if we're using a three tier system, then I would rate them no higher than a low two. As for America, the difference here is oppertunity. Here, high school drop-outs can become billionaires. The poor people here are the richest poor people in the world, and 95% of the people that are truly poor here need only to look in the mirror for the reason why.

I'm not saying that life in Mexico is great for the masses, just making a point that it's hardly as bad as you were trying to make it sound. You have to go there to see it. Yes, there are lots of bad places, but for the most part people are happy and very friendly and don't seem to mind working hard.

We're not helping much either. Mexicans have lost millions of dollars in recent months due to the increased price of corn from the U.S. They're having a hard time making tortillas and pricing them reasonably. All for our retarded love for ethanol :rolleyes:

One of many scenarios where we are in fact making life harder on the average Mexican.

[SkyVue]

Hey people , lets stick to the topic of a Mexican built and carry the debate of Mexico's status to another part of the forum. Me Yes its sad that the next Vue won't be built in the U.S. But this could change in the future when more production is shifted about the GM system and the final assilmulation of Saturn into GM is complete. I think the next vue is kinda bland looking on the outside, but look at the new camary its bland and not that nice looking but it sells well. So i have hope for the new Saturn and will stick with them.

[greyhound bus]

Well, as often is the case, what's good for one person is bad for somebody else. Look how many farriers and buggy makers Henry Ford put out of business. Nobody loves cheap gasolene prices anymore than me, but when the oil prices bottomed out in the 1980's a lot of hard working people in Texas, Oklamhoma and Louisiana were really hurt by it. Low corn prices have been killing American farmers for years, now they have a chance to make some money, even though methanol is a joke. But just wait until you buy corn flakes or pork products, and you'll know where some of that farmer's windfall is coming from.

[fatabbot]

Well, as often is the case, what's good for one person is bad for somebody else. Look how many farriers and buggy makers Henry Ford put out of business. Nobody loves cheap gasolene prices anymore than me, but when the oil prices bottomed out in the 1980's a lot of hard working people in Texas, Oklamhoma and Louisiana were really hurt by it. Low corn prices have been killing American farmers for years, now they have a chance to make some money, even though methanol is a joke. But just wait until you buy corn flakes or pork products, and you'll know where some of that farmer's windfall is coming from.

Good points. I was mainly venting (yet again) about ethanol....

[VuedIt]

for me id rather buy american built rather than built in some other country, but the problem that hurts us now is all these manufactures eithe closing plants and moving them to mexico or there filing bankruptcy and hurting american wages, so the question comes up will disgruntle employees here make a better part cause there in labor fights with the company cause the company wants them to take a 50% pay cut or higher, or would u rather have a part on your vehicle that is made from mexico that pays there employees maybe our minimum wage or less but there glad to have that job to put food on there table, id rather have the one that is happy in there job for the fact that the qaulity will be a lil better, and thats just stating from facts i know of a family member working for a shock manufacture that built shocks for saturn vehicles that went bankrupt and quality dropped 60%.

[greyhound bus]

Good points. I was mainly venting (yet again) about ethanol....

I'm totally with you on ethanol. Lousy fuel, lousy price.

[pana_ginip]

i hope they dont use duck tape building the vue ... :D

[DesertPuma]

While Mexico could be called a 3rd world nation, it's not as bad as you're making it out to be. Go see if for yourself. If you want to see a true third world nation to our south, try Guatemala, Columbia, etc.

From the horror stories you hear from other people about parts of the U.S., you'd think we were a poor nation, too. :rolleyes:

There is a friend of mine who goes to Mexico regularly, everytime he leaves, I tell him (and anyone else who goes there)... "Well it's been nice knowing ya!", seriously. I know one of these times (and once is all it's going to take), I will be right.

Personally I would not set one foot into that place. 3 words... Third...World...Country.

[cjhsa]

Will they all come with jumper cables?

[Ritz]

A Mexican VUE might be the cat's meow if GM rehires John Delorean and puts him in charge of "final prep" for export back to the US. :)

[Ritz]

While Mexico could be called a 3rd world nation, it's not as bad as you're making it out to be. Go see if for yourself. If you want to see a true third world nation to our south, try Guatemala, Columbia, etc.

or Arkansas, Louisiana, West Virginia, etc... :)

[mellissam]

or Arkansas, Louisiana, West Virginia, etc... :)

I wasn't going to go there.....I worked in Louisiana, and some parts seemed downright third worldish....btw - what is with mobile home fever that afflicts the south? Everywhere I went, I saw a friggin mobile home...and they always build them in hurricane areas or in tornado alley....
Heck, even in Canada we have areas that are downright thirdworldish...actually, downtown Eastside in Vancouver is the poorest postal code in Canada...not something everybody knows for a city that is hailed as the most liveable city on the planet...the one big difference is that we have a welfare state up here...you get at least some money...
I think Mexico is getting an unfair rap, they have come along ways since the 60's and 70's...they have a burgeoning middle class. Having worked with Mexican Nationals in the seismic field, I can say that it wouldn't bother me one bit for them to build the 08 VUE...they care about thier quality of work just as much as anybody else....:D

[spencerb]

or Arkansas, Louisiana, West Virginia, etc... :)

Hey now! :cool:

[VTHokie00SL2]

I think Mexico is getting an unfair rap, they have come along ways since the 60's and 70's...they have a burgeoning middle class.

I dunno...I haven't seen the modern residential developments with white picket fences and modern medical care, effective law enforcement, strong educational system, etc. Maybe it exists, but there's a lot more of this kind of shanty town (http://www.saa.org/publications/saabulletin/15-4/SAAgifs/SmithFig02.jpg).

The government is corrupt, the country is extremely polluted, violent crime is rampant...not my idea of a "developed" country.

[Complex]

My 2001 Wolfsburg Edition Jetta was built in Mexico. I am convinced it was assembled by a crew of schizophrenic gremlins with hangovers and something to prove on a Friday afternoon. The stories I could tell about that car for the 5 years I owned it could me made into a full feature movie. You would laugh, you would cry. Absolutely unbelievable things went on with that car.

With that said, I don't think it was build quality issue. I am convinced it was just poor engineering and bad luck. I would buy another car made in Mexico, no problem.

[piney]

One other thing with the Made in Mexico issue:

If GM were to price these things at or below KIA prices by passing along the labor and other savings to the customer, then GM might sell some of these and have a hope at recapturing market share. They won't though, they'll charge more for them.

As far as I go, the CRV-SE in the garage has a J in the first part of the VIN and I bought one with it there for a reason. :cool: :usa:

[BobbyP]

or Arkansas, Louisiana, West Virginia, etc... :)

or Connecticut...

[fusion61]

who would u buy from john or juan that is the :?:

[SaturnSdn]

I do not care at all..............................................I care to much.

[MichaelVUE]

Gee, I don't have white picket fences either. I didn't realize that they were such a status symbol.

I dunno...I haven't seen the modern residential developments with white picket fences and modern medical care, effective law enforcement, strong educational system, etc.

[VTHokie00SL2]

Gee, I don't have white picket fences either. I didn't realize that they were such a status symbol.

The point is that a middle class lifestyle is not available to most factory workers in Mexico. I saw a program today that did show where some of the more affluent people live in Ciudad Juarez. The homes look modern, but much like the house I stayed at when I was in Guatemala City, they are surrounded by fences, barbed wire, gates, etc. Many have armed guards, indicating the level of safety and the fear of crime that exists. Most of the laborers live in makeshift dwellings in a nearby shanty town.

[Uzzy]

The homes look modern, but much like the house I stayed at when I was in Guatemala City, they are surrounded by fences, barbed wire, gates, etc. Many have armed guards, indicating the level of safety and the fear of crime that exists. Most of the laborers live in makeshift dwellings in a nearby shanty town.
Sounds like Detroit. When Henry Ford first set-up shop. Well, actually things haven't changed much. :snide:

[mellissam]

......they are surrounded by fences, barbed wire, gates, etc. Many have armed guards, indicating the level of safety and the fear of crime that exists. .......

Funny you should say that....I get that feeling everytime I travel down south (aka USA)....seriously, with so many people packing, I feel all hell is going to break loose, any moment. In LA, we paid the police to look after us while we did our seismic jobs...
I agree there are places in Mexico that typify squalor, but times are a changing.....it seems silly to think Mexican assembly workers will not be able to do a good job, just like the USA plant. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to bolt on a part, but what does matter, is attention to detail and pride in work.

Another biggy for me, is that they are getting paid a 'human wage'...not necessarily what thier USA couterparts were getting, but a decent living wage......:)

[Uzzy]

Another biggy for me, is that they are getting paid a 'human wage'...not necessarily what thier USA couterparts were getting, but a decent living wage......:)That's because, their US and Canadian "brothers" are getting paid much more than a decent wage for unskilled labour.

[kilcher]

I wouldn't buy a Saturn built in Mexico.

Saturn, GM's import fighter. How ironic.

[DesertPuma]

I wouldn't buy a Saturn built in Mexico.

Saturn, GM's import fighter. How ironic.

You noticed that too, huh? I was wondering when someone would bring that up.

Saturn was created to be an import fighter, now they are imports themselves (Antara, Corsa, Astra, SKY, AURA, etc.... all imports or import derivatives, right down the line, the Outlook seems to be the only exception):snide:

[VTHokie00SL2]

We have met the enemy and he is us.

[saturn_69]

I wouldn't buy a Saturn built in Mexico.

Saturn, GM's import fighter. How ironic.

Honda is an import, built in Ohio. Again, how ironic. What's the difference?

Saturn was an import fighter when it first came out, now, every American car is an import fighter and just about every import is built in America. I could care less whether the VUE is built in Mexico.

[saturn_69]

You noticed that too, huh? I was wondering when someone would bring that up.

Saturn was created to be an import fighter, now they are imports themselves (Antara, Corsa, Astra, SKY, AURA, etc.... all imports or import derivatives, right down the line, the Outlook seems to be the only exception):snide:

The SKY is not an import, it's an export. The Aura isn't an import either, it's styling just looks similar to the Opel Vectra. It's built in the U.S..

[saturn_69]

Another thing. Do we care about the minimum wage earners in America more than the workers at GM plants in Mexico? If so, why are people opposed to raising the minimum wage? We care that Mexicans can't have a 'middle class lifestyle' (whatever the heck that is) and yet we don't seem to care that the American middle class is getting smaller. Is it fashionable to care about Mexican workers? Is it okay to not care that your fellow Americans are struggling to get by? Do you feel they just need to try harder?

[DesertPuma]

The SKY is not an import, it's an export. The Aura isn't an import either, it's styling just looks similar to the Opel Vectra. It's built in the U.S..

That still means 50% or better of their line (current and future) are imports. The "Old Saturn" was 100% domestic (ok maybe the radios and other electronic components are Japanese.)

(It was my understanding that the Aura was based on the Opel Vectra, much like the 'L' was. I stand corrected, maybe it's built in the U.S. but the design and engineering is definitely euro. I was also given the impression that the SKY is euro-design/engineered as well.)

[saturn_69]

That still means 50% or better of their line (current and future) are imports. The "Old Saturn" was 100% domestic (ok maybe the radios and other electronic components are Japanese.)

(It was my understanding that the Aura was based on the Opel Vectra, much like the 'L' was. I stand corrected, maybe it's built in the U.S. but the design and engineering is definitely euro. I was also given the impression that the SKY is euro-design/engineered as well.)
The Aura and Sky were designed/engineered in both America and Europe jointly.

[Uzzy]

That still means 50% or better of their line (current and future) are imports. The "Old Saturn" was 100% domestic (ok maybe the radios and other electronic components are Japanese.)

(It was my understanding that the Aura was based on the Opel Vectra, much like the 'L' was. I stand corrected, maybe it's built in the U.S. but the design and engineering is definitely euro. I was also given the impression that the SKY is euro-design/engineered as well.)

There is no such thing as "purely American cars. " They don't and can't exist anymore. There it's a global economy now, and the Big 2 1/2 are figuring it out, finally. It only took them over 30 years.

[s-seriesguy]

That still means 50% or better of their line (current and future) are imports. The "Old Saturn" was 100% domestic (ok maybe the radios and other electronic components are Japanese.)
The "Old Saturn" was never 100% US content, the same goes for any car made within the past 30 years.

As far as buying a mexican made Vue or any other imported Saturn, no thanks.

[spencerb]

The Aura and Sky were designed/engineered in both America and Europe jointly.By an American company (GM).

Funny how it's ok for GM or Ford to sell overseas ("yay for American companies!"), but not ok for foreign built cars to be sold here ("buy American!").

[saturn_69]

By an American company (GM).

Funny how it's ok for GM or Ford to sell overseas ("yay for American companies!"), but not ok for foreign built cars to be sold here ("buy American!").

I know, really. Is it okay for Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai to have plants here? Some people have to realize that like it or not, the Global economy is here and it's here to stay. What also amazes me is this so-called "concern" for the low-paid Mexican workers that will be building the VUE and how some say they won't buy it because the workers don't get paid enough to live a 'middle class' lifestyle. Puh-leeze. You buy a Whopper from someone who is a fellow citizen and you could care less how much he or she gets paid and yet, when a Mexican citizen is employed by GM and that citizen's wages aren't equal to what you (not you, Spence) could make it on, all of a sudden it's exploitation and you're taking the moral high ground? And yet we fight any increase to the minimum wage? Which citizens should we care about more?

[Uzzy]

What also amazes me is this so-called "concern" for the low-paid Mexican workers that will be building the VUE and how some say they won't buy it because the workers don't get paid enough to live a 'middle class' lifestyle. Puh-leeze.The only thing that concerns me is the their often shoddy quality record. They are doing menial unskilled labour, they don't deserve much. About as much as a fast food employee, if you ask me. I mean really? why is it that someone that puts a bolt in a hole for 8-10 hours a day makes over $30 with benefits here, but when I was supervising an entire security company on the midnight shift, I made >$9 no benefits? Is that fair?

[saturn_69]

The only thing that concerns me is the their often shoddy quality record. They are doing menial unskilled labour, they don't deserve much. About as much as a fast food employee, if you ask me. I mean really? why is it that someone that puts a bolt in a hole for 8-10 hours a day makes over $30 with benefits here, but when I was supervising an entire security company on the midnight shift, I made >$9 no benefits? Is that fair?

Because you don't have a Union to threaten with strike in order to get more and more from a company until it is simply struggling to stay afloat while you blow all your money on frivolous 'stuff' to live the lifestyle that your employer is dying to keep you in. Sound familiar?:D

[Uzzy]

Because you don't have a Union to threaten with strike in order to get more and more from a company until it is simply struggling to stay afloat while you blow all your money on frivolous 'stuff' to live the lifestyle that your employer is dying to keep you in. Sound familiar?:D

Yes it does. The security company did have a union, I was "management" making squat to run the show, so I wasn't in it. Most of the unionized guards made more, but not much more, unless they were at Ford's, or ADM, or General Chemical. The union didn't anything for the guards, unless they were at a high profile site. If they were sitting in their car at a construction site or the like, they didn't give a crap. They got minimum wage, with a $1.50/hr increase, for fuel/vehicle use. But god forbid I try and fire someone that was caught sleeping, repeatedly, or insubbordinate. Then they would scream bloody murder! Because then they would lose one more due payer.

[VTHokie00SL2]

You buy a Whopper from someone who is a fellow citizen and you could care less how much he or she gets paid and yet, when a Mexican citizen is employed by GM and that citizen's wages aren't equal to what you (not you, Spence) could make it on, all of a sudden it's exploitation and you're taking the moral high ground? And yet we fight any increase to the minimum wage? Which citizens should we care about more?

I never fought any increase in the minimum wage. But really, who should be working on an assembly line? 16 year old kids? If we expect adults to make a living building cars, why shouldn't they expect to get paid enough to enjoy a decent lifestyle?

[spencerb]

If we expect adults to make a living building cars, why shouldn't they expect to get paid enough to enjoy a decent lifestyle?Because everybody's definition of "decent" is different.

[saturn_69]

I never fought any increase in the minimum wage. But really, who should be working on an assembly line? 16 year old kids? If we expect adults to make a living building cars, why shouldn't they expect to get paid enough to enjoy a decent lifestyle?

And whose definition of a decent lifestyle should they live? Your idea of a decent lifestyle? Mine? Donald Trump's? Define 'decent lifestyle'. Also, just because they are adults does that mean they should make $30 an hour? That's half of what an attorney gets....and the auto worker doesn't have 4+ years of college and a degree! I don't see where slapping on a fender or installing door panels on a car is worth more than $15 per hour....it's all the *****ing and arm-twisting by the UAW that has swollen the wage to the point where it's hard to sustain without having some Mexicans doing the work as well. You can't have a profitable company with all the employess getting $20+ an hour, plus healthcare, plus pention...something has to give. They're Union so you can't just fire them to lower payroll, they're Union so if you lay them off you still have to pay them. If having some models assembled south of the border is what it takes to keep GM alive, then so be it. You want to pay the employees what many feel is a very high wage for manual labor but still have the company post a profit so as to keep a low-selling model of car around and also not have to hire some of the work out to other countries. Don't want much, do ya?

[saturn_69]

Because everybody's definition of "decent" is different.

hehehe

Great minds think alike.

A decent lifestyle to me is one where my kids have food, shelter, love, support....who needs a 3000 sq. ft. McMansion, 2 new cars and a boat to have a decent life? Not me. Material possessions don't make your life decent.

[VTHokie00SL2]

If a living in squalor in some shanty town that lacks even the most basic modern amenities like running water and sewage is decent to you, then fine, you should have no moral objections to sending work to cheap labor markets in poor countries.

[DesertPuma]

You buy a Whopper from someone who is a fellow citizen

Don't know about you, but here in AZ most people that I buy a Whopper from can barely speak English... :hmpf: They often get the order wrong.

[cdp326]

(It was my understanding that the Aura was based on the Opel Vectra, much like the 'L' was. I stand corrected, maybe it's built in the U.S. but the design and engineering is definitely euro. I was also given the impression that the SKY is euro-design/engineered as well.)
The Sky's design was done in England and as a matter of fact, they Sky is about to go on sale as the Opel GT in Europe.
The Aura shares only the front nose and sort-of the platform. I say sort of because the Vectra is on a shorter wheelbase than the Aura is. The Aura is more American than the L was. Don't be misled--you're not likely to find much beyond the nose shared between the Aura and Vectra.
If the Aura looks Euro-designed to you though, mission accomplished. :yes:

[saturn_69]

If a living in squalor in some shanty town that lacks even the most basic modern amenities like running water and sewage is decent to you, then fine, you should have no moral objections to sending work to cheap labor markets in poor countries.

Shanty town? Outside Detroit? Who are we to judge the lifestyle and/or lives of people in another country? What you consider a shanty town could very well be the Ritz to them. Just because it's not how you would choose to live don't look down your nose at it. Yes, I'm sure the Mexican workers that work for GM only get paid $2 a week like those people that put the stereo together, the one in your SL2. Didn't seem to bother you there, did it? Or the TV in your apartment. Or the cell phone you use. It's the American arrogance speaking when we sit back and say that something is wrong with a person that doesn't want to live our stereotypical lifestyle. Kinda hard for them to improve their place in life if people refuse to buy the product they are building long enough that the parent company closes down that plant and therefore all those people who had the opportunity to improve their lives (if they aspire to it, not everyone wants to live the same way we do....believe it or not!) can no longer do so because some arrogant, self-important foreigner decided they didn't like the way that employee lived enough to keep them employed. It's a Catch-22. It's also a lot like Missionary work overseas, but instead of preaching the Gospel to the natives for brownie points, we get the natives to drink Coke, wear Levi's and watch NASCAR.

[Uzzy]

....and the auto worker doesn't have 4+ years of college and a degree!Absolutely untrue. Where do you think all the University of Windsor graduates get jobs? They do have degrees in all kinds of things from Marine Biology, to Human Resources, to just about anything, but when they can work for $30/hr slapping fenders on, why would they work for a living? :xeye: Nowadays in order to get a job at the DCX Windsor assembly plant, or Ford's Engine, or GM transmission, you have to know somebody, and be related, and get in as TPT, and have a degree, or get in as Student TPT. No exceptions, I'm not kidding. It's sad, but there are some bright peopel in there wasting their life tightening lugnuts. Maybe that's why things are so crappy round here lately.

:hmm:

[saturn_69]

Absolutely untrue. Where do you think all the University of Windsor graduates get jobs? They do have degrees in all kinds of things from Marine Biology, to Human Resources, to just about anything, but when they can work for $30/hr slapping fenders on, why would they work for a living? :xeye: Nowadays in order to get a job at the DCX Windsor assembly plant, or Ford's Engine, or GM transmission, you have to know somebody, and be related, and get in as TPT, and have a degree, or get in as Student TPT. No exceptions, I'm not kidding. It's sad, but there are some bright peopel in there wasting their life tightening lugnuts. Maybe that's why things are so crappy round here lately.

:hmm:

Well that's just sad. So if you go to law school and pass, you can always get work with GM if you can't pass your bar exam? Too, too sad.

[Uzzy]

Well that's just sad. So if you go to law school and pass, you can always get work with GM if you can't pass your bar exam? Too, too sad.Exactly. :(

[VTHokie00SL2]

Shanty town? Outside Detroit? Who are we to judge the lifestyle and/or lives of people in another country? What you consider a shanty town could very well be the Ritz to them. Just because it's not how you would choose to live don't look down your nose at it.

Yes, you're right, we're really doing them a big favor, giving them these low wage jobs. Our corporate execs should feel proud to be doing such a favor for these folks. Truly, they are an example for us all in how they help their fellow man.

[saturn_69]

Yes, you're right, we're really doing them a big favor, giving them these low wage jobs. Our corporate execs should feel proud to be doing such a favor for these folks. Truly, they are an example for us all in how they help their fellow man.
And how much money do you think they'd get paid if GM didn't employ them? No, GM isn't being altruistic, but you make it sound like they are paid $2 a week. Actually, they are paide an equivalent of two times the Mexican minimum wage and also make what is considered in Mexico to be lower-middle class wages.

[DesertPuma]

The Sky's design was done in England and as a matter of fact, they Sky is about to go on sale as the Opel GT in Europe.
The Aura shares only the front nose and sort-of the platform. I say sort of because the Vectra is on a shorter wheelbase than the Aura is. The Aura is more American than the L was. Don't be misled--you're not likely to find much beyond the nose shared between the Aura and Vectra.
If the Aura looks Euro-designed to you though, mission accomplished. :yes:

It's the nose and the Euro-design that has me totally turned off on all future Satpel (Opturn?) products. Sorry, I don't see the appeal.

[s-seriesguy]

What also amazes me is this so-called "concern" for the low-paid Mexican workers that will be building the VUE and how some say they won't buy it because the workers don't get paid enough to live a 'middle class' lifestyle. Puh-leeze. You buy a Whopper from someone who is a fellow citizen and you could care less how much he or she gets paid and yet, when a Mexican citizen is employed by GM and that citizen's wages aren't equal to what you (not you, Spence) could make it on, all of a sudden it's exploitation and you're taking the moral high ground? And yet we fight any increase to the minimum wage? Which citizens should we care about more?
Honestly, I could give a flying **** less what some mexican makes assembling Vues or any other car. $3 an hour or $30 an hour, it makes no difference to me. I'm not going to support any GM or any other US automaker's vehicles that get sent elsewhere besides the US for production.

[spencerb]

Yes, you're right, we're really doing them a big favor, giving them these low wage jobs. Our corporate execs should feel proud to be doing such a favor for these folks. Truly, they are an example for us all in how they help their fellow man.When I PERSONALLY went to Mexico and studied international business at a university there, my MEXICAN professors explained that US manufacturing jobs there are APPRECIATED by the workers and looked favorably upon as improving the economy.

You're subscribing to a stereotype that you have no first hand knowledge of. Americans are VERY spoiled, and until you have traveled the world, you have no idea what the reality is for most of the world's population. Our standards of living are so inflated it's unreal.

[saturn_69]

Honestly, I could give a flying **** less what some mexican makes assembling Vues or any other car. $3 an hour or $30 an hour, it makes no difference to me. I'm not going to support any GM or any other US automaker's vehicles that get sent elsewhere besides the US for production.

I don't plan on buying a Vue, an HHR or any other vehicle built in Mexico either, I was just trying to point out to VTHokie that our lifestyle choices and aspirations are not always the same as those of citizens of another country, that we look down on those who don't aspire to the advertised, hyped and contrived "middle class lifestyle" that is prevelant in our media. Materialism is an American thing. Do I like the idea that any company is exporting jobs? No. But there's not much we can do about it. Sure, we can refuse to buy a Mexican built VUE because of our convictions and principles, but is it really going to affect GM? Not at all. Too many people don't care, obivously, where products are built. The iPod is designed in America, but to keep the cost low enough to increase sales and get them in the hands of the most people, they are built in China. Don't see anyone protesting against Mr. Jobs. Our clothing is made in places like Turkey, Bangladesh, Costa Rica....and, sometimes unfortunately ;) , we don't see anyone walking around naked in protest of Pakistanis making our clothes. We aren't a producer anymore, we're are a Nation of Buyers. It's one of the pitfalls of Capitalism that workers demand higher wages so their employers increase the prices of products to compensate, thereby causing other workers to seek higher wages and their employers raising prices and on and on.....until either a company folds or ships jobs - usually the blue collar assembly-type jobs - overseas or south of the border. How do you feel about Honda and Toyota having plants here? Except for the wages of the workers, the profit goes home to Japan. Is that okay? I don't feel it is, but that's just me. Also, these companies get tax breaks for bringing their factories here; does GM or Ford get tax breaks for giving people jobs? Most likely, no.

Please don't read my defense of the citizens of Mexico for not living like some Anglo-Saxon suburban family from the U.S., and the stereotyped 'shanty-town' image of our southern neighbors, as support of GM's decision to move jobs out of America.

[VTHokie00SL2]

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If a CEO who earns millions of dollars a year would be willing to give that up and live on $2 an hour or whatever they get paid, then I wouldn't be able to criticize that CEO for paying his/her employees at that level.

[spencerb]

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If a CEO who earns millions of dollars a year would be willing to give that up and live on $2 an hour or whatever they get paid, then I wouldn't be able to criticize that CEO for paying his/her employees at that level.It's called a free job market.

Or if you'd like, we could all earn the same amount of money without regard to education, intelligence, skill, or ability. Let's just pay every GM worker the same, from the line worker to the CEO. I wonder how long it would take for the engineers and management executives to leave for other jobs?

When foreign companies open car plants in the US, they pay market wages for their US employees, not what they pay back home. The same holds true for the reverse. It's the theory of free market economics that dictate wages, and you are looking for trouble if you artificially inflate them.

[VTHokie00SL2]

There has to be some sort of baseline for minimum acceptable living standards in this world, or we'll always have what amounts to slave labor.

[DesertPuma]

Oh man, this is better than the "Poly V Steel" Debates :D

[saturn_69]

Oh man, this is better than the "Poly V Steel" Debates :D

Well at least we're keeping someone entertained!:D

[SaturnSales]

After driving the 08 VUE... I don't care where it is built.... it is a great vehicle... of course I would have perferred to see it built at SH...

[VTHokie00SL2]

Just out of curiosity, does anybody here know how much GM is actually paying the employees at the VUE plant in Mexico?

[Uzzy]

Just out of curiosity, does anybody here know how much GM is actually paying the employees at the VUE plant in Mexico?

Wow, you really are desperate for a new job, huh? :|

[saturn_69]

Just out of curiosity, does anybody here know how much GM is actually paying the employees at the VUE plant in Mexico?
According to some websites, what equals a lower-middle class wage - at least in Mexico.

[VTHokie00SL2]

According to some websites, what equals a lower-middle class wage - at least in Mexico.

As much as people complain about the unions' greed, that really illustrates the greed of GM management. I mean, they're already saving a ton of money in labor costs, and they can't spend the extra couple of bucks per hour that it would take to bring the Mexican workers from lower middle class to middle class?

[spencerb]

As much as people complain about the unions' greed, that really illustrates the greed of GM management. I mean, they're already saving a ton of money in labor costs, and they can't spend the extra couple of bucks per hour that it would take to bring the Mexican workers from lower middle class to middle class?If you are performing lower-middle class work, then you deserve lower-middle class wages, no?

My understanding is that the pay is good for the market. That's all I need to know.

[saturn_69]

If you are performing lower-middle class work, then you deserve lower-middle class wages, no?

My understanding is that the pay is good for the market. That's all I need to know.Exactly. It's amazing. Some seem more concerned with what the average Mexican worker makes than what the average American makes. Which citizen do we care more about?

[Uzzy]

As much as people complain about the unions' greed, that really illustrates the greed of GM management. I mean, they're already saving a ton of money in labor costs, and they can't spend the extra couple of bucks per hour that it would take to bring the Mexican workers from lower middle class to middle class?

The UAW, and CAW make sure that that is not possible.

If you are performing lower-middle class work, then you deserve lower-middle class wages, no?Exactly right! What people don't seem to understand is that this is menial labour, pure and simple. You do the task you are told, that's it. And it's usually fairly simple. Monkeys and robots are very capable of doing almost any line job. Skill does not make it into the picture for the vast majority of what's required. Working on the line at an assembly plant should not be a career any more than working in a supermarket, or fast-food, or Wall-Mart, but around here, and other places where the unions garner relatively astronomical wages people see it as that. It sickens me.

[VTHokie00SL2]

Wow, you really are desperate for a new job, huh? :|

I will be soon. Just found out I'm likely losing my job within a year.

[Uzzy]

I will be soon. Just found out I'm likely losing my job within a year.

Bummin. Don't come to Michigan or This part of Ontario (Essex County) We're mostly in the same boat. :(

[rerunjas]

Do you care whether or not your VUE is made in the US or Mexico?
I Do Care where the Vue is made. A Mexican Built Vue is taking jobs from Central Tennessee and giving them to Mexicans. Just more of that BS Fair Trade Economics and Outsourcing that has resulted from our One-Way Trade Agreements with Mexico and Canada in which we lose everytime. Thousands of good paying US Jobs have been lost here because of that. I wont be buying one.:upset:

[cdp326]

I Do Care where the Vue is made. A Mexican Built Vue is taking jobs from Central Tennessee and giving them to Mexicans. Just more of that BS Fair Trade Economics and Outsourcing that has resulted from our One-Way Trade Agreements with Mexico and Canada in which we lose everytime. Thousands of good paying US Jobs have been lost here because of that. I wont be buying one.:upset:
Spring Hill isn't shutting down, they're going to be getting new product. Additionally, the plant in Mexico was already producing cars. It produced the Buick Rendezvous that is being discontinued, which has a replacement (the Enclave) that is actually being produced in the US.

[lightGear]

I understand that a lot of people are saying that they won't buy a Saturn Vue because it is taking jobs away from US workers, which is understandable, but there are also a few people gripping about the quality of the cars made in Mexico. Just because they are made in Mexico doesn't mean that the cars are going to be any less quality than they were when they were produced in Tennessee. GM is going to have the same "quality" product that they built in the US and hold the Mexican factory to the same standard.

A question thats been on my mind is do people mind buying products that are built in the US but are from foreign automakers. Meaning foreign owned US built. Are you less likely to buy that car because it is not a US company or more likely because it is built in the US?

[Uzzy]

I understand that a lot of people are saying that they won't buy a Saturn Vue because it is taking jobs away from US workers, which is understandable, but there are also a few people gripping about the quality of the cars made in Mexico. Just because they are made in Mexico doesn't mean that the cars are going to be any less quality than they were when they were produced in Tennessee. GM is going to have the same "quality" product that they built in the US and hold the Mexican factory to the same standard.Quality issues with Mexican built cars from GM and other manufacturers is documented. So yes it does mean that. They have gotten a lot better for the most part however.

[mellissam]

.....BS Fair Trade Economics and Outsourcing that has resulted from our One-Way Trade Agreements with Mexico and Canada in which we lose everytime......

Ha, your upset.....up in Canada we got the shaft from the US administration over the softwood lumber deal, in which, get this, we pay over 1 billion dollars to setttle a trade dispute....:hothead: The real irony, is they lost the dispute, but in order to 'smooth' things over, we had to cough up the dough....It is one-way trade, and the US is getting all it wants. JMHO.

[mellissam]

Ha, your upset.....up in Canada we got the shaft from the US administration over the softwood lumber deal, in which, get this, we (really US companies) pay over 1 billion dollars to setttle a trade dispute....:hothead: The real irony, is they lost the dispute, but in order to 'smooth' things over, we had to cough up the dough....It is one-way trade, and the US is getting all it wants. JMHO.

Actually, I am a little off-topic, but that issue really got me (soft-wood lumber). The funny thing out of all that is that the US consumer gets the shaft (lumber prices artificially higher), the lumber companies (most lumber operations in Canada are owned by US conglomerates) get the dough. They were imposing tariffs on themselves because the US consumer wanted to keep lumber jobs at home...end result, US based lumber companies don't modernize, go out of business...

In keeping with this thread, I hope the Big Three do modernize (benefits US, Canada and now Mexico) thier plants or it won't be the Mexicans taking our jobs, it'll be China....I saw a China branded auto that looked ok...the real shock was it's price ~10k. :eek:

IMHO, there is no moving away from automation...have to embrace it. Cannot compete against Mexico or China on labour costs....

[BobbyP]

Quality issues with Mexican built cars from GM and other manufacturers is documented. So yes it does mean that. They have gotten a lot better for the most part however.

I've read recent posts about nightmares from the Buick Rendezvous built at the same plant... Don't be snowballed, the VUE is taking a step backwards in quality being built in Mexico.

[cdp326]

I've read recent posts about nightmares from the Buick Rendezvous built at the same plant... Don't be snowballed, the VUE is taking a step backwards in quality being built in Mexico.
Where are the posts? Again, I've never heard of any big Rendezvous issues, and it seems to be a good vehicle for GM reliability-wise the past few years.
Should we just be snowballed into thinking that what you're saying is true when the new VUE isn't even priced yet, let alone in production?

[BobbyP]

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef01cf9

Here's the first one off the top from a google search... I like comment about the razor blades being left in the doors...

Over the years I've heard nothing good about the Rendezvous or the Aztec. From the shoddy assembly and engine and transmission problems.

There's problems in that Mexican plant. I don't like to prejudge, but very little seems promising with the new generation VUE.

Of course I may get in one and fall in love, but from what I've seen and read so far I doubt it...

[NueSaturnVue]

Yes because I want my next Vue built in the factory that my first one came from with the values that Saturn began with! And PLASTIC PANELS! WTF!!!!! Why the hec are they going steel?! Saturn is lost....:dazed:

I believe being made in Mexico will be just fine cause I have no qualms about buying a New Beetle thats made in Pueblo..so it's not that.

[cdp326]

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef01cf9

Here's the first one off the top from a google search... I like comment about the razor blades being left in the doors...

Over the years I've heard nothing good about the Rendezvous or the Aztec. From the shoddy assembly and engine and transmission problems.

There's problems in that Mexican plant. I don't like to prejudge, but very little seems promising with the new generation VUE.

Of course I may get in one and fall in love, but from what I've seen and read so far I doubt it...
Other GM vehicles used the same transmission. Assembly quality would be difficult to say, since it's not like all of GM's other cars were much different at the time.
Edmunds is where a lot of people complain at--it's a community forum. You'd never buy any car if you thought that everything that people mentioned would happen to every vehicle.
Why bother condemning a vehicle that hasn't been produced yet? After things like the introductions of the ION and outgoing VUE, it's not like they have much they can afford to lose.

[stocksaturn]

I find it a bit of a turnoff. It's no longer a true US OF A car. You know? IT may not have the same feeling. IDK Just wish they stuck to Spring Hill FOR ALL of their cars. (astra too) But hopefully the astra will be American made soon.:usa:

[BobbyP]

Other GM vehicles used the same transmission. Assembly quality would be difficult to say, since it's not like all of GM's other cars were much different at the time.
Edmunds is where a lot of people complain at--it's a community forum. You'd never buy any car if you thought that everything that people mentioned would happen to every vehicle.
Why bother condemning a vehicle that hasn't been produced yet? After things like the introductions of the ION and outgoing VUE, it's not like they have much they can afford to lose.

You could very well be right about the Edmunds, look at the tone of most posts on this forum. It makes Saturn look like the worst car you could buy.

I'm finished complaining... I don't like judging, but the numbers don't look promising for the 2008 VUE.

IMO the old VUE is leaving with a good legacy. The only sore spot is the VTi experiment. I'm very proud of the fine job the guys at Saturn and Spring Hill did to produce such a well performing SUV. Brilliant out of the box engineering and construction. Saturn body and Honda engine, the best of all worlds... :)