Adios Spring Hill... ¡Hola Ramos!

[20VUE06]

Surprised it hasn't been brought up yet - again...

It's official::x

http://www.saturnfans.com/Cars/VUE/2008/vueproductionmexico.shtml

Its been a hotly debated topic for quite sometime in the media, on the Internet, and in SaturnFans.com Forums, but the discussions about whether General Motors will or won't build the next-generation Saturn VUE in the United States can finally be closed. Saturn has confirmed to SaturnFans.com that the all-new sport-utility will move from Tennessee to Mexico. "I can officially confirm that the 2008 VUE will be assembled at the GM assembly plant in Ramos Arizpe, Mexico," a Saturn official told SaturnFans.com yesterday. Production is expected to start in the second quarter of 2007 with the first '08 VUEs arriving at retail facilities before the end of June.

[Nessuno]

No offense, but I'd rather buy Japanese! My 2004 will be the last Saturn I ever own! I use to be a Levis man, but once I saw they were making the jeans in Mexico, Columbia etc. and charging the same high price, I started buying the less costly, still foreign made Lees! Who do the manufacturers think are going to buy these foreign products when nobody in the USA has a job?

[BadGL]

Oh, I mentioned this some weeks back only to be met by a lynch mob and a lot of 'insiders' telling me how this was completely wrong and how Saturn would never waste the SH plant. This is essentially the Opel Antara, which is actually made by Daewoo in Korea. I think we may get to manufacture the badges if we're lucky.

Now don't get me wrong as these are actually decent enough cars, but why would GM, with a steadily declining market share, with union contracts that force them offshore, and an ever growing red ink trend, even consider manufacturing them here? It's just going to be assembling the kit so go with the cheapest labor.

Somehow the 'experts' here got it wrong - how shocking. You only have to look at the big picture and the financials to see the obvious, but the grease monkey insiders don't want to see this. GM, puppies, and rainbows....

No jobs for you...

[mjbuck]

My Vue is only 9 months old, so it will be a while before the thought of purchasing another will be an issue. The move to Mexico just made that decision for me. You can bet GM's production costs in Mexico will be lower, but do you think any of us will see the savings? Doubt it!

Another point of interest concerning Saturnfans.com. I find the sight extremely informative. The difficult part is that most posts concern problems pertaining to Saturn vehicles, in my case the Vue. It is hard not to lose confidence in my vehicle because most of what you read is about is the problems people are having. I have to tell myself to remember that for every negative issue posted I'm sure there are hundreds of Vue owners that have no problems. I'm nearing the 9,000 miles mark and other than my heated seat going out two weeks ago, I have had no issues with my vehicle. As a matter of fact, it is one of the few vehicles I've owned in the last ten years that I really, really like. So, if you are reading Saturnfans because you are possibly going to purchase a Saturn product, keep in mind that there are many more satisfied customers out there than the few that have listed their reliability issues on this site. For example, I became concerned reading all the negative posts about the AWD system. With the large amounts of snow we have received lately, I found the system to be satisfactory and much less of a concern than I believed it would be from the posts I read.

[BobbyP]

Surprised it hasn't been brought up yet - again...

It's official::


Denial, aggravation, betrayal, slap in the face. A lot of reasons people haven't jumped in yet.

The fact that GM was holding back the announcement I knew it was being made it Mexico and that the rumors were true. Saturn Corporate don't want to aggravate the Saturn community any sooner than necessary. It would cost them sales, and credibility. Credibility, I believe that was lost years ago...

I'm sure Jill is working on a speech now explaining how this is such a positive move for Saturn.

I personally would have bought a steel bodied VUE with a GM V6 engine if it was built in Spring Hill, or the US. This destroys the last piece of the Saturn legacy. I said months ago GM had an agenda to dismantle and destroy everything Saturn built. They're almost there.

Soon Saturn will just be a trim option on a Chevrolet. I believe we may already be there...

Yo Quero Saturn...

[97_Saturn_SL2]

It doesn't say that Spring Hill is closing, though, does it? In other words, they aren't closing a plant in the U.S. and building a new one in Mayheeco (and "outsourcing" a bunch of jobs). The plant at Ramos Arizpe has been around for quite some time.

I understand the frustration of another tie to "old school Saturn" being severed, but at least recognize that this is not at all the same thing as if Spring Hill were closed and leveled in exchange for the new Vue to be built at a new or expanded plant in Mexico.

[frankski]

If they can pay a worker 11$ a day (Mexico) instead of 25$/hour, you'd really think they would keep the jobs in the US? Hey, its the same in Canada, all our jobs are moving to India and China. Go in a store and try to find something made in Canada anymore, good luck its all Chinese.

Please the shareholders, the rest is not important. Exploite, pollute, corrupt... no problem, but make more money and pleases the big pockets.

Its the same where I work, they are trying every trick to make more money, they send jobs to India a few ago, it went back because they were incompetent. Now they are trying with China... I cant wait to see the results.

The same is going on in the US auto industry.

Frankski

[1saxman]

'It is hard not to lose confidence in my vehicle because most of what you read is about is the problems people are having.'

I have thought about this for a long time and smoked many cigars over it. Here's what I think: #1, people don't have much to say about cars when everything is going okay. #2, considering the huge numbers of VUEs sold, the negative reports don't seem to reflect many serious problems. #3, many negative reports seem to me to be from younger buyers with little to no experience in new cars or cars in general (I'll never forget the several questions about ticking sounds after cutting off the car, for example). #4, and last but not least, it's largely a manifestation of the Internet and the forum. Don't forget, this is the first time in history that buyers of a certain make/model can access others on a large scale, and it really started to get 'in gear' just about the time the VUE was introduced. The information thus derived has proven to be a double-edged sword, because while being extremely helpful to those who know what to do with it, it also can make it seem like a particular vehicle is more trouble-prone than others. Major problems have occurred with each and every mass-produced automobile from day one, and will continue. The question is, how does the VUE compare to other new vehicles which preceded it? We don't know, because the forums are too recent to have that data. We have to rely on sources like Consumer Reports which have proven to be subject to interpretation at best, and largely irrelevant at worse, along with anecdotal evidence. I think the vast majority of VUEs have proven to be reliable vehicles. All vehicles need varying degrees of maintenance. Most of the 'problems' you read about here are maintenance issues and/or failure to read the owner's manual or ask the Saturn service dep't. about it.
Anyway, since the last year of polymer VUEs is in production and the next model will be assembled in Mexico, my last thought is that values on the 2001-2007 VUEs will likely increase or at least hold better than they have.

[BobbyP]

'It is hard not to lose confidence in my vehicle because most of what you read is about is the problems people are having.'

I have thought about this for a long time and smoked many cigars over it. Here's what I think: #1, people don't have much to say about cars when everything is going okay. #2, considering the huge numbers of VUEs sold, the negative reports don't seem to reflect many serious problems. #3, many negative reports seem to me to be from younger buyers with little to no experience in new cars or cars in general (I'll never forget the several questions about ticking sounds after cutting off the car, for example). #4, and last but not least, it's largely a manifestation of the Internet and the forum. Don't forget, this is the first time in history that buyers of a certain make/model can access others on a large scale, and it really started to get 'in gear' just about the time the VUE was introduced. The information thus derived has proven to be a double-edged sword, because while being extremely helpful to those who know what to do with it, it also can make it seem like a particular vehicle is more trouble-prone than others. Major problems have occurred with each and every mass-produced automobile from day one, and will continue. The question is, how does the VUE compare to other new vehicles which preceded it? We don't know, because the forums are too recent to have that data. We have to rely on sources like Consumer Reports which have proven to be subject to interpretation at best, and largely irrelevant at worse, along with anecdotal evidence. I think the vast majority of VUEs have proven to be reliable vehicles. All vehicles need varying degrees of maintenance. Most of the 'problems' you read about here are maintenance issues and/or failure to read the owner's manual or ask the Saturn service dep't. about it.
Anyway, since the last year of polymer VUEs is in production and the next model will be assembled in Mexico, my last thought is that values on the 2001-2007 VUEs will likely increase or at least hold better than they have.

There's a lot of truth to what you've said... If we believed Consumer Reports none of us would have bought our VUE's. IMO the Honda engine has increased the VUE's reputation, reliabilty, and resale. This will go away in 7 months.

[pisulino]

If they can pay a worker 11$ a day (Mexico) instead of 25$/hour, you'd really think they would keep the jobs in the US? Hey, its the same in Canada, all our jobs are moving to India and China. Go in a store and try to find something made in Canada anymore, good luck its all Chinese.

Please the shareholders, the rest is not important. Exploite, pollute, corrupt... no problem, but make more money and pleases the big pockets.

Its the same where I work, they are trying every trick to make more money, they send jobs to India a few ago, it went back because they were incompetent. Now they are trying with China... I cant wait to see the results.

The same is going on in the US auto industry.

Frankski

In 10 years, North America will be part of the third world, and we will have the standards many other Countries have had for many years.
The wealth is now being distributed evenly around the globe and not longer just within the exclusive club of 10 countries.
Get used to it and save your money.......

Skills around the globe are very competent and several countries are producing engineers, doctors, scientists and other proffessionals at five times the north american rate. They are not incompetent, projects sometimes are handled by the wrong people (mainly from PMO's from this continent)
Like it or not, everything is being industrialized not just car manufaturing but software, medicine, architecture, etc. These days, most jobs are commodities. If it's documented, procedures are there to transfer the knowleadge and that's about it.......

Everyone running a business today has people working in Asia, Eastern Europe or South America to perform volume and repetitive work for a lot less cost. If your QA methods are good the "who does the Job" is irrelevant.

What is the difference between a North American or someone else installing a seat or a windshield in a car?? It's all about methods and QA controls not workers. Isn't the same with the multinational burger chains?(Donald's, Wendy's, etc) anyone can take the 2 day course and start flipping burgers...........

As for the workers:
Why is Toyota able to produce quality vehicles in North America? same workers but different methodology and rules of engagement with their workers. Bring your best everyday or we don't want you in this plant!

I'm not saying that you shouldn't be upset at the amount of jobs being lost in NA. However, NA needs to re-invent itself and the population requires high education and a change of attitude. We confuse being at work for many hours with productivity. Long hours do not guarantee good productivity.

The only jobs that will have good pay in the future, are the ones were the workers need to be highly skilled (scientists, physicists, mathematicians, etc.) all others will end up working in services or greeting at Walmart.
SAD but true!...
Keep your kids in school, but most importantly teach them good work ethics (attendance, productivity, and positive attitude...)

[1saxman]

An interesting book by Alvin Toffler, the author of 'Future Shock', was written about 30 years ago to explain what is happening now. It's called 'The Third Wave'. The waves are; the agricultrial revolution, the industrial revolution and the information revolution. In it, he states that some people will lose their jobs and never have another one. He predicted everything that has happened to us and probably most of what will. 'Globalization' is a huge part of the big change, whether you like it or not. I don't like talk about 'redistribution of wealth' (as in take from the rich and give to the poor), but in fact the best thing that could happen for us from a security standpoint is to have the 'poor' countries find some product or service that will help them raise their standard of living, and I believe that is exactly what's happening all over the world.
Ancient Chinese curse: May you live in 'interesting' times. And we sure are.

[fastdrvr23]

I don't really have anything to add what people have said, other than I was in Ramos / Saltillo 5 weeks ago. I took a tour of the GM plant and the Dodge 2500 assembly plant. I work for MAHLE, inc... we make pistons for most automotive companies. We have a plant there in Ramos, and we're implementing some system changes (I'm a programmer / IT / nerd person)

Even better, my rental car was a manual transmission Chevrolet Corsa 4 door.
Piece of utter crap, with about 38,000 kms on it. It was bad enough barely knowing enough Spanish to find my way to the bathroom, but watching a 6'4", 215lb white guy get out of the Corsa got a lot of snickers.

The factory was alright, pretty large facility, our tour was on a golf cart. lol.

Anyways, I don't like the change for the Vue, glad mine was made in Spring Hill. :-)

[cdp326]

Oh, I mentioned this some weeks back only to be met by a lynch mob and a lot of 'insiders' telling me how this was completely wrong and how Saturn would never waste the SH plant. This is essentially the Opel Antara, which is actually made by Daewoo in Korea. I think we may get to manufacture the badges if we're lucky.

Now don't get me wrong as these are actually decent enough cars, but why would GM, with a steadily declining market share, with union contracts that force them offshore, and an ever growing red ink trend, even consider manufacturing them here? It's just going to be assembling the kit so go with the cheapest labor.

Somehow the 'experts' here got it wrong - how shocking. You only have to look at the big picture and the financials to see the obvious, but the grease monkey insiders don't want to see this. GM, puppies, and rainbows....

No jobs for you...
No, you weren't attacked as you say. What most pointed out (including myself, if you're choosing to lump me in) is that it was not set in stone that the VUE would be built in Mexico. There were sides to both arguments--reasons for the VUE made in the US or Mexico. We now know where it'll be built.
Nobody here claimed to be an "insider" or "expert"--simply people that didn't automatically assume. You, on the other hand, came here with the agenda of ripping on the VUE Green Line as you were getting bad mileage, but tried to pretend you were "just one of the fans." GM, pitchforks, and coal....
(PS: The powertrain, a large part of the car, won't necessarily be made in Mexico--and that's something that differs from the Antara.)

[BadGL]

Latest MPG 18.4. It's junk.

Seemed to me that there were plenty of 'holier than thou' attitudes expressed with distinctly 'look at me I'm an expert with inside knowledge' overtones.

Yeah, you're right - I'm ripping on the GL. Latest mileage is 18.4 MPG - it deserves to be ripped on.
As to assuming, I think I was quite accurate in my statement of the facts (ie. it's a Daewoo kit made in Korea, that will be assembled outside the realm of GM union contracts). I think anything else mentioned was speculation.

Look around the web and you'll see the GL truth is emerging and my value for trade in in dropping by the minute. I should be happy about that?

I will never buy a GM car again.

[piney]

18.4 is horrible for a "hybrid" - what the heck is wrong with GM?

Glad as heck I don't own stock in them or have any of their products in my garage any more. I've had more of them than I can count but frig, building a Saturn in Mexico? It better come in 3 grand less than the current model to make up for the huge labor savings but if history repeats itself, they'll bump the price 2%.

How do you say "asta lavista baby" in Spanish?

[s-seriesguy]

Even better, my rental car was a manual transmission Chevrolet Corsa 4 door.
Piece of utter crap, with about 38,000 kms on it. It was bad enough barely knowing enough Spanish to find my way to the bathroom, but watching a 6'4", 215lb white guy get out of the Corsa got a lot of snickers.

Just think, before too long GM will be brining that pile of crap to the Saturn lineup. F-GM.:x

[MarvC]

I am very glad I bought the 2007 VUE with the Honda Engine/Drive train. The unit is 3 months old one problem with a rattle in the rear grocery assembly dealer corrected.
The unit is rock solid and pure joy to drive.
I would not purchase an 08 if I were still in the market for an SUV, the Honda engine as well as the location of assembly were two of the prime motivators for buying the a VUE.
As far as assembly in Mexico that for me that is three strikes you are out I would not purchase a car assembled from a plant located there. Everything is being farmed out for a cheaper labor rate and sometimes you do get what you pay for!
I really like the Saturn Line, we have three 07's in the family and all are keepers.
Regardless of the dealer/mfg of any car I do look and consider it a major issues as to where the car is assembled.

[Dorian]

You can bet GM's production costs in Mexico will be lower, but do you think any of us will see the savings? Doubt it!

Saturn has never operated at a profit. Never. That means for a lot of years it has cost Saturn more to build cars than they receive from our purchases. So now that they are going for a cheaper labor force there is a potential for them to achieve a profit (or at least reduce their losses). You expect them to go ahead and lower their prices due to cheaper labor and continue to operate at a loss? Not if your 401K is heavily invested in GM.;)

[DesertPuma]

Saturn has never operated at a profit. Never. That means for a lot of years it has cost Saturn more to build cars than they receive from our purchases. So now that they are going for a cheaper labor force there is a potential for them to achieve a profit (or at least reduce their losses). You expect them to go ahead and lower their prices due to cheaper labor and continue to operate at a loss? Not if your 401K is heavily invested in GM.;)

I fully expect the price to increase.

[jdmessner]

Saturn is dead! Saturn is dead! Long live Saturn!

Moving the production from Spring Hill (USA) to Ramos (Mexico) is the final stake in the heart that sweeps away the last shred of Saturn's identity. Gone is everything that attracted me, my family and many others to the Saturn brand.

Its a damned shame that a foregin owned company (Honda) provides good paying jobs to American workers while GM (ostensibly an American owned company) ships those same jobs from America to Mexico.

My new Pilot, Wife's CR-V and son's used Accord were all built in Ohio. And GM wonders why their sales continue to slip?

Viva Mexicana! Donde Esta mi Tequila?:dizzy:

[piney]

Not if your 401K is heavily invested in GM.;)


Change your investment disciplines. You should not have any more than 5% in any one stock. Diversity is the key to protecting yourself from loss.

Saturn itself might not have turned a profit but its higher MPG numbers permitted GM corporate to sell more gas hogs at much higher profit levels and not be subject to the CAFE files for said hogs. In the bigger picture, Saturn helped GM's bottom line.

[Dorian]

Saturn itself might not have turned a profit but its higher MPG numbers permitted GM corporate to sell more gas hogs at much higher profit levels and not be subject to the CAFE files for said hogs. In the bigger picture, Saturn helped GM's bottom line.

Thats quite a creative spin. Politics is your calling!

[page2171]

Saturn is dead! Saturn is dead! Long live Saturn!

Moving the production from Spring Hill (USA) to Ramos (Mexico) is the final stake in the heart that sweeps away the last shred of Saturn's identity. Gone is everything that attracted me, my family and many others to the Saturn brand.

Its a damned shame that a foregin owned company (Honda) provides good paying jobs to American workers while GM (ostensibly an American owned company) ships those same jobs from America to Mexico.

My new Pilot, Wife's CR-V and son's used Accord were all built in Ohio. And GM wonders why their sales continue to slip?

Viva Mexicana! Donde Esta mi Tequila?:dizzy:

This is the way it will be until GM can get out from under the thumb of the UAW. Honda and Toyota can afford to build cars here because they are not getting screwed by the UAW in the process. GM moves production to Mexico to get away from the UAW. If you don't like your Vue built in Mexico, blame the UAW, because they are the reason for GM having to do it.

[montrealvue]

Though I would buy a Mexican built car (Saturn or non-Saturn), if the next batch of Saturn models are not reliable and efficient then I'll just buy another make.

Its not personal, I like Saturn very much. As a consumer, I buy what meets those needs. With the ENORMOUS amount of reliablility issues Saturn has faced from Spring Hill built vehicles over the years, if Mexico doesn't fare better, hey, I'll be a Mazda guy, its that simple!

[vue-vtec]

This is the way it will be until GM can get out from under the thumb of the UAW. Honda and Toyota can afford to build cars here because they are not getting screwed by the UAW in the process. GM moves production to Mexico to get away from the UAW. If you don't like your Vue built in Mexico, blame the UAW, because they are the reason for GM having to do it.

I think you need to blame, to some extent, GM too! Or am I supposed to believe that the UAW forced GM to sign all those bad labor contracts?

[wolfman]

I think you need to blame, to some extent, GM too! Or am I supposed to believe that the UAW forced GM to sign all those bad labor contracts?

Considering that if a STRIKE evolved during contract negociations, GM generally lost about $6,000,000 a DAY......then yes, you could definately say that the UAW "forced" GM to sign all those bad labor contracts.

[Nessuno]

To our Canadian friends who don't think it's important to produce the VUE in the U.S. How about "SOREL BOOTS?" I have had several pairs in the past made in Canada. Wonderful boots! I then began seeing them made in China, Korea, Mexico! Bad fit! Never buy them again! These boots should be made in Canada! It's tradition! The VUE should be made in the U.S.A. !:us:

[97_Saturn_SL2]

Saturn is dead! Saturn is dead! Long live Saturn!

Moving the production from Spring Hill (USA) to Ramos (Mexico) is the final stake in the heart that sweeps away the last shred of Saturn's identity. Gone is everything that attracted me, my family and many others to the Saturn brand.

Its a damned shame that a foregin owned company (Honda) provides good paying jobs to American workers while GM (ostensibly an American owned company) ships those same jobs from America to Mexico.

My new Pilot, Wife's CR-V and son's used Accord were all built in Ohio. And GM wonders why their sales continue to slip?

Viva Mexicana! Donde Esta mi Tequila?:dizzy:I'm sorry, why does someone who has a Pilot, CR-V, and Accord even have a stake in this conversation? And did you see my earlier post? If Spring Hill is not being shuttered, then this is NOT a case of more jobs being shipped to Mexico. Ramos Arizpe has been around for several years now, as has Spring Hill. If both are going to continue to operate (I do not currently know the status of Spring Hill), it would not be a net loss at all. Even if Spring Hill sits idle for a while, it still is not the case that they shuttered a plant and built a new one in Mexico just to build the new Vue (since Ramos has already been around building other vehicles).

No offense, but it is a little ironic seeing a whining post about jobs being moved coming from someone buying a bunch of Hondas. Perhaps if you and others had bought, for example, a Tahoe instead of that Pilot (and probably had pretty much the same fuel economy, but with V8 towing power and not so ugly styling), or a Vue or Equinox instead of the CR-V, GM would not be losing market share and suffering from a plant overcapacity issue, which causes - you guessed it - some plants to be idled or closed.

And yes, as some have said, the UAW is a big issue here. That Honda plant in Ohio (which is certainly a good thing for Ohio's economy, don't get me wrong) doesn't have to wrestle with the UAW and the potentially back breaking strikes that come with it when they don't get their way. They might be "good paying American jobs", but they aren't as good paying as the UAW jobs. Good for Honda and Toyota (and would be good for GM/Ford/DCX), not so good for the worker, from a salary/benefits point of view. Why do you think GM and Ford have offered these early buyout offers to their UAW workers? It lets them downsize, because they currently have too many UAW workers on payroll, but it is a voluntary downsize, not a layoff or firing leading to grievances or strikes. Plus, it will allow them to replace some of the workers that are still needed with more temporary workers, at a lower pay scale (probably closer to the Honda/Toyota plants), though still healthy pay based on what I've seen.

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not thrilled about the Vue (or any other car) being built in Mayheeco, unless of course something else cool is planned for Spring Hill. Keep in mind that the Aura, Outlook, Ion, and Sky are all still built in the US. Not sure about Relay. Anyway, keep in mind that back before people started buying the import brands (which happened way before they opened a few token plants in the U.S.), you didn't see too many GM plants in Mexico...

But to just jump the gun and call GM the devil (like we haven't heard that on this board before :rolleyes: ) based on this one decision without knowing the long term plan or bigger picture is a little silly, imo.

[montrealvue]

To our Canadian friends who don't think it's important to produce the VUE in the U.S. How about "SOREL BOOTS?" I have had several pairs in the past made in Canada. Wonderful boots! I then began seeing them made in China, Korea, Mexico! Bad fit! Never buy them again! These boots should be made in Canada! It's tradition! The VUE should be made in the U.S.A. !:us:

Boots and cars, big difference my friend. The textiles/apparel industry in Canada is dying a similar death to the auto industry in the U.S. The removal of tariffs, duties and quotas has meant textile production here is all but dead. Thank our government for that. Cars on the other hand still have duties for foreign manufacture (ok, other than Mexico, under NAFTA). The auto industry at least has SOME protection due to unions, the garment industry is barely protected. A garment union says peep and they shut the factory down, its that simple.

[jdmessner]

I'm sorry, why does someone who has a Pilot, CR-V, and Accord even have a stake in this conversation? And did you see my earlier post? If Spring Hill is not being shuttered, then this is NOT a case of more jobs being shipped to Mexico. Ramos Arizpe has been around for several years now, as has Spring Hill. If both are going to continue to operate (I do not currently know the status of Spring Hill), it would not be a net loss at all. Even if Spring Hill sits idle for a while, it still is not the case that they shuttered a plant and built a new one in Mexico just to build the new Vue (since Ramos has already been around building other vehicles).

No offense, but it is a little ironic seeing a whining post about jobs being moved coming from someone buying a bunch of Hondas. Perhaps if you and others had bought, for example, a Tahoe instead of that Pilot (and probably had pretty much the same fuel economy, but with V8 towing power and not so ugly styling), or a Vue or Equinox instead of the CR-V, GM would not be losing market share and suffering from a plant overcapacity issue, which causes - you guessed it - some plants to be idled or closed.

And yes, as some have said, the UAW is a big issue here. That Honda plant in Ohio (which is certainly a good thing for Ohio's economy, don't get me wrong) doesn't have to wrestle with the UAW and the potentially back breaking strikes that come with it when they don't get their way. They might be "good paying American jobs", but they aren't as good paying as the UAW jobs. Good for Honda and Toyota (and would be good for GM/Ford/DCX), not so good for the worker, from a salary/benefits point of view. Why do you think GM and Ford have offered these early buyout offers to their UAW workers? It lets them downsize, because they currently have too many UAW workers on payroll, but it is a voluntary downsize, not a layoff or firing leading to grievances or strikes. Plus, it will allow them to replace some of the workers that are still needed with more temporary workers, at a lower pay scale (probably closer to the Honda/Toyota plants), though still healthy pay based on what I've seen.

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not thrilled about the Vue (or any other car) being built in Mayheeco, unless of course something else cool is planned for Spring Hill. Keep in mind that the Aura, Outlook, Ion, and Sky are all still built in the US. Not sure about Relay. Anyway, keep in mind that back before people started buying the import brands (which happened way before they opened a few token plants in the U.S.), you didn't see too many GM plants in Mexico...

But to just jump the gun and call GM the devil (like we haven't heard that on this board before :rolleyes: ) based on this one decision without knowing the long term plan or bigger picture is a little silly, imo.

You're new here, aren't you?

Let me give you the cliff notes version. I bought my first Saturn in 1994, an SC1. I then proceeded to purchase a 1995 SL2, 1996 SW2, a 2000 SL2, a 2003 Vue and a 2006 Vue. Up until the LS2, I was thrilled with Saturn, but since the introduction of that model, something changed much for the worse.

After having 3 LESS than reliable cars, including the the abhorent Vti in my 2003 that failed outside of warranty and the 2006 which had to be lemon-lawed after multiple computer failures, I washed my hands of Saturn and walked away.

For me, the news that the new Vue (which is bolt for bold a freaking Opel!!!) is going to be produced ALA Mexico is the final nail in the coffin.

Saturn USED to be a brand worth considering. Now, they're just another platform shared cookie-cutter GM division with cars made in a foreign country. After a 13 year relationship with Saturn, I am plenty disappointed. That's why I went to Honda.

[pisulino]

To our Canadian friends who don't think it's important to produce the VUE in the U.S. How about "SOREL BOOTS?" I have had several pairs in the past made in Canada. Wonderful boots! I then began seeing them made in China, Korea, Mexico! Bad fit! Never buy them again! These boots should be made in Canada! It's tradition! The VUE should be made in the U.S.A. !:us:

Nessuno,
The problem is that the guy making the boots switch professions and is now growing pot for a better margin. He said that he had only one customer in the US.
Then the boots manufacturing was outsourced to others.....:D

[Nessuno]

Nessuno,
The problem is that the guy making the boots switch professions and is now growing pot for a better margin. He said that he had only one customer in the US.
Then the boots manufacturing was outsourced to others.....:D

Very funny! I was only using the boots as an example. Eventually all we're going to be doing is buying products from China and Mexico (If we have any income to spend) and not producing anything ourselves! The CEO's get rich while the little guy goes on welfare! Eventually the economy will collapse.You can't continue as a nation with just a service based industry and no manufacturing.

[cdp326]

Latest MPG 18.4. It's junk.

Seemed to me that there were plenty of 'holier than thou' attitudes expressed with distinctly 'look at me I'm an expert with inside knowledge' overtones.
No--if you took it personally or thought they were insiders that's not their fault. Perhaps you were just angered by their accusations concerning your mileage--which for the most part are fairly standard responses when it comes to hybrids.

Yeah, you're right - I'm ripping on the GL. Latest mileage is 18.4 MPG - it deserves to be ripped on.
No new car really deserves to be ripped on. The VUE has other, larger faults other than the mileage, too.

As to assuming, I think I was quite accurate in my statement of the facts (ie. it's a Daewoo kit made in Korea, that will be assembled outside the realm of GM union contracts). I think anything else mentioned was speculation.
As to which parts? We already did know that the Antara was developed by Daewoo, but was also the Theta architecture already in place by the VUE. We heard rumors that the VUE could be built in Mexico, but there was nothing set in stone (you decided to assume it was though) as it is without official releases.

Look around the web and you'll see the GL truth is emerging and my value for trade in in dropping by the minute. I should be happy about that?
Was it said you should be? VUE's don't have great resale in the first place and it's not a great help that there's a new model right around the corner.
Not every car and not every driver is the same, either.

I will never buy a GM car again.
Actually, it seems to me more that that Green Line was not immune to being like any other hybrid car.
I researched a couple reviews, and found that generally mileage is not what's expected unless you really carefully drive it, and also found that things like the "ECO" light were useless.
Most cars don't get the EPA mileage, and hybrids are generally worse in this regard. People don't swear off other companies for getting the mileage the sticker "promises." Maybe you bought too deeply into the hype. But hey, what is marketing supposed to say?--"You may not really get that much more mileage but at least you get some more standard equipment with it!" Nope.

[pisulino]

Very funny! I was only using the boots as an example. Eventually all we're going to be doing is buying products from China and Mexico (If we have any income to spend) and not producing anything ourselves! The CEO's get rich while the little guy goes on welfare! Eventually the economy will collapse.You can't continue as a nation with just a service based industry and no manufacturing.

I don't want to scare you but...how is your Spanish lately?? LOL

[Nessuno]

True Dat!

[mellissam]

Very funny! I was only using the boots as an example. .......

There is a lot of truth in what Pisulino said. Apparently, it is our 2nd largest industry in BC (largest cash crop by far). I think Canada is better positioned because of our natural resources (lots left to exploit), whereas the US doesn't fare all that well in that regard...although I hear the prez is going to open up the Alaskan north slope....the one thing I find the US is good at, and that is, reinventing itself (worked in the US for some time)....
Check the video section (middle of page) of the NY times..story on two car manufacturing towns in the US.... http://www.nytimes.com/
Very interesting story. :)

[Ritz]

There is a lot of truth in what Pisulino said. Apparently, it is our 2nd largest industry in BC (largest cash crop by far). I think Canada is better positioned because of our natural resources (lots left to exploit), whereas the US doesn't fare all that well in that regard...although I hear the prez is going to open up the Alaskan north slope....the one thing I find the US is good at, and that is, reinventing itself (worked in the US for some time)....
Check the video section (middle of page) of the NY times..story on two car manufacturing towns in the US.... http://www.nytimes.com/
Very interesting story. :)


I suspect the largest "cash crop" from BC doesn't show up on the official reports. :D

[Nessuno]

"Reefer'ing" of course to Pisulino's previous post! Ha! We have a "Mexico" on both borders!:us:

[BadGL]

CDP326 - please read what I said more carefully. I said outside the realm of GM Union contract, not Mexico (I couldn't predict that), and my opinion as to whether the GL deserves to be ripped is mine and 18.4 MPG, in my judgement, deserves it - it's my opinion and not up for debate.

As to why this is my last GM car is because this was overhyped, by Saturn, and mislead by Saturn sales, with my concerns largely blown off by the dealer. GM are now begrudgingly expressing an interest but it's been an uphill struggle. A brand new car just shouldn't be this hard.

My other cars (2 German imports) are all over any problems and understand reputation builds market share.

Actually you have a good point on the 5 vs 4 speed transmission. What is on the 2.2L?

[97_Saturn_SL2]

You're new here, aren't you?

Let me give you the cliff notes version. I bought my first Saturn in 1994, an SC1. I then proceeded to purchase a 1995 SL2, 1996 SW2, a 2000 SL2, a 2003 Vue and a 2006 Vue. Up until the LS2, I was thrilled with Saturn, but since the introduction of that model, something changed much for the worse.

After having 3 LESS than reliable cars, including the the abhorent Vti in my 2003 that failed outside of warranty and the 2006 which had to be lemon-lawed after multiple computer failures, I washed my hands of Saturn and walked away.

For me, the news that the new Vue (which is bolt for bold a freaking Opel!!!) is going to be produced ALA Mexico is the final nail in the coffin.

Saturn USED to be a brand worth considering. Now, they're just another platform shared cookie-cutter GM division with cars made in a foreign country. After a 13 year relationship with Saturn, I am plenty disappointed. That's why I went to Honda.New here? No. Sorry I don't have your life story memorized, or even your history of car buying... :hmpf:

Fine, you've owned Saturns in the past.

The post of yours about which I commented included something to the effect of 'It's sad that a foreign company provides jobs while an American company moves them overseas. No wonder GM's sales are dropping.'

Angered by the moving of jobs from the USA, you feel more justified in...buying from a foreign company based overseas and who builds many of their vehicles overseas. It wasn't until this rebuttal post that you explained that you had several Saturns, but switched after having a few problematic models in a row. (Also, you seem to act as though it is the fact that they are "GM cookie cutter cars" - which is false, save the Relay - that was the start of the downfall. The original Vue and Ion were/are NOT cookie cutter cars, but that is another topic.)

Either way, I find it amusing to ***** about lost jobs when you buy from the competition who is based in Japan. If you feel you got burned by a couple of recent Saturns, it would of course make perfect sense to try a different brand. Just don't ***** about lost jobs (which AGAIN isn't really even the case, since Ramos Arizpe is an established plant that has been around for a while, but no one seems to want to comment on that). And there are lots of other brands out there besides Honda (though I will say, I'd rather see someone buy a Honda than a Toyota, who has the media and public so snowed it is scary).

You say Saturn is "just another cookie cutter GM brand with cars made in another country." Well, let's see. The Ion, Aura, Outlook, Sky, Relay and current Vue are made in the good ol' USA. The UPCOMING Vue is the only one I'm aware of that is build in another country. ONE model. Meanwhile, somehow Honda is OK, even though they are BASED in a foreign country, and still build several models in Japan. How is that logical?

Way to stick it to 'em. "OMG, they are going to build a Saturn outside the USA! Well, then, since I care so much about where vehicles are built, I'm going to start buying from a foreign automaker!"

:|

:)

Like I said, it is understandable to switch brands if you've had some issues. And Honda is no doubt a good brand (easily my favorite of the Japanese brands, save maybe Mazda, but they are partially owned and controlled by Ford, which makes me like them even more), and they build mostly good stuff. It is also sort of nice that they build several cars for U.S. consumption in the U.S. or Canada. But it still strikes me as odd to go after Saturn's jugular over moving one model to an already existing plant in Mexico while buying from a company that is still very much a Japanese company, regardless of where their final assembly takes place for some vehicles. :)

[cdp326]

Actually you have a good point on the 5 vs 4 speed transmission. What is on the 2.2L?
Any 05+ FWD4 has the 4-speed auto (I assume the same one as on the GL). The 02-04 I4's (and 2005 AWD4) had the VTi auto, so it wouldn't be a good standard of comparison. The 5-speed manual has been also available all along on the I4.