View Full Version : So tell me again..why is it being redesigned?
DesertPuma
10-13-2006, 02:26 PM
Right off the Saturn Fans headlines. If it isn't broke, don't fix it! :upset: To put another way, don't mess with success!
http://www.saturnfans.com/Cars/VUE/2007/2006totalvaluevue.shtml
BobbyP
10-13-2006, 02:32 PM
Progress... Unfortunately when GM redesigns a car, they go 2 steps forward and 1 step backwards. They lose some of the features or designs that made the original a sucess.
The 2008 VUE will be better in many respects, but will lose a few features that made it work before... It ususally takes a few years for GM to do damage control and get the package right.
99blacktop
10-13-2006, 02:43 PM
What I find funny is this: "Most improved brand: Honda" I thought they were already perfect. :rolleyes:
DesertPuma
10-13-2006, 04:20 PM
The 2008 VUE will be better in many respects
You have no idea how much I disagree with this statement.
It's CHEAPER to produce the newer version.
DesertPuma
10-13-2006, 05:04 PM
It's CHEAPER to produce the newer version.
Point taken :upset: :hmpf: :ugh: :x
It's not nor is it ever going to be near as good.
BobbyP
10-13-2006, 05:34 PM
You have no idea how much I disagree with this statement.
Don't be so closed minded. Give the 2008 VUE a chance!
Judge the 2008 VUE when it's available. I'm keeping an open mind and plan on giving it a chance.
The Aura came out pretty good...
burnout
10-13-2006, 05:42 PM
Right off the Saturn Fans headlines. If it isn't broke, don't fix it! :upset: To put another way, don't mess with success!
http://www.saturnfans.com/Cars/VUE/2007/2006totalvaluevue.shtml
Weren't you saying how the 2006 redesign was terrible too when it came out?
The 02-05 design can't go on forever.
DesertPuma
10-13-2006, 05:42 PM
Don't be so closed minded. Give the 2008 VUE a chance!
Judge the 2008 VUE when it's available. I'm keeping an open mind and plan on giving it a chance.
The Aura came out pretty good...
Sorry...can't do it. I don't like the Aura either. I think the 2008 VUE (aka Daewoo) is (going to be) a travesty. I am hoping they rename it.
BobbyP
10-13-2006, 06:46 PM
Sorry...can't do it. I don't like the Aura either. I think the 2008 VUE (aka Daewoo) is (going to be) a travesty. I am hoping they rename it.
Travesty... –noun Any grotesque or debased likeness or imitation.
snip from Wikipedia...
Theta is General Motors' mid-size crossover SUV and compact SUV automobile platform. The architecture debuted in 2002 with the Saturn VUE (Theta, Compact SUV) and was later used for the Chevrolet Equinox (Extended Theta, Mid-Size Crossover SUV). The platform was developed by GM and Suzuki Motors, but a substantial part of work for the later 2006 and 2007 Theta models was done by GM Daewoo and GM's Shanghai, China engineering operation, Pan-Asia Technical Automotive Center.
The Saturn VUE has always been a global effort. It's in Saturn's best interest NOT to rename the VUE.
DesertPuma
10-13-2006, 09:13 PM
Weren't you saying how the 2006 redesign was terrible too when it came out?
Yes, it looks goofy (to put it kindly), and everytime I see one, I just frown and shake my head. The original design looks "mean" and bulldogish. To each his own I guess.
The 02-05 design can't go on forever.
Granted, but forever is a very long time. Quite arguably the most successful car in history, the VW Beetle (the Classic, not the "New"), lasted nearly 50 years using essentially the same design. (There were some changes, but mostly cosmetic.)
Travesty... –noun Any grotesque or debased likeness or imitation.
Grotesque...yeah that still fits. It's not even close to how the current VUE looks, so there is absolutely no likeness at all... rename it.
snip from Wikipedia...
Theta is General Motors' mid-size crossover SUV and compact SUV automobile platform. The architecture debuted in 2002 with the Saturn VUE (Theta, Compact SUV) and was later used for the Chevrolet Equinox (Extended Theta, Mid-Size Crossover SUV). The platform was developed by GM and Suzuki Motors, but a substantial part of work for the later 2006 and 2007 Theta models was done by GM Daewoo and GM's Shanghai, China engineering operation, Pan-Asia Technical Automotive Center.
They forgot to mention the Torrent. :rolleyes:
The Saturn VUE has always been a global effort. It's in Saturn's best interest NOT to rename the VUE.
It will be a completely different car, so why not? (There is precedent after all, take the Plymouth Valiant, when it was redesigned it took on a new name Plymouth Duster.)
Yes I have heard the Honda Civic argument (for that matter, almost any Honda car), the original Civic doesn't even come close to the Civic of today, but was the original Civic as successful as the "original' VUE?
Another example is the Toyota LandCruiser, originally it was a little Jeep CJ type vehicle, that you could take almost anywhere offroad...now it is a full blown luxury SUV (and grotesque as well), and is no longer nearly as "off-road worthy" as it's predecessor. But again, was the original LC as cuccesful as the VUE?
Heck they should rename the brand... OpWoo, or how about DaePel, because IMHO, it is no longer Saturn, they have lost their identity, and innovativeness, they are a car developed by some other car company, that just happens to have Saturn badges on them. They are in short "just another car".
Nope sorry, I just can't see getting a steel-bodied Saturn, it's just "unnatural", it's just plain wrong, it doesn't feel right, it doesn't look right, and never will. You won't be able to change my mind. (Uzzy calls me bull-headed, go ahead I can take it :D)
The Relay didn't last very long, did it? The first steel-bodied Saturn has already failed, in record time no less.
lithous
10-13-2006, 09:15 PM
Don't believe everything you see on wikipedia. Anyone can edit it.
I mean, it states that substanstial changes to the 2006 and 2007 Theta were done by GMDAT and GM Shanghai but what real changes were done to theta (which is a platform) in the last two model years? As far as I can see from the VUE, only cosmetic changes and no real platform changes were done.
BTW, the parts that I have taken off that happened to be new in 2006 (added fog light chrome pieces with aftermarket lights and the chrome parts were made in the U.S. and the faux wood pieces I replaced were made in the U.S. as an example) were just about all made here so it isn't that the new cosmetic parts are made in Korea or China. My guess is that they would make a couple of the cheap parts there if they did any type of design.
So I find that wikipedia entry to be "sketchy" to say the least.
sspeer
10-13-2006, 09:25 PM
Frankly, the current VUE is at the end of it's lifecycle...styling is started to get dated, it doesn't fit with Saturn 2.0, and the refinement still isn't where it needs to be. I don't think anyone can truthfully say that there aren't ways the VUE could be improved
Waiting until it's totally non-competitive before redesigning is how the Big 3 lost their market share in the last few decades. Everyone complains how GM/Saturn didn't keep up with the S series and that's why it ultimately was discontinued..yet you want to do the same for the VUE?
Don't judge the 08 VUE yet. I'm looking forward to seeing it in person
DesertPuma, you sure seem to have awful strong opinions about the next gen VUE without any hard information about it.
And on a related note, that Wikipedia article is useless. Suzuki and China had nothing to do with the design of the VUE or any other Theta short of the XL7.
mellissam
10-13-2006, 10:56 PM
I agree with Puma about the poly thing....chucking a perfectly good technology to count pennies....Anyway, they redesigned the interior, which is light years ahead of the older iterations, then they dump the line, but not before introducing a GreenLine...I don't get it. They finally get it right (knock on wood), and they dump it. I think there is tons of things they could do to make it better - redesign back seats for more seat height, add a hidden cargo area, put nav in as an option, make the AWD a real 4WD.....etc....
The GL thing really mystifies me....a great starter Hybrid for only one year?
I thin a big problem was piss poor marketing...IMHO. I am now begginning to see some decent Saturn commercials, you know, the ones that make you go wow, I got to have a look.....
Its almost like they dumped it because it would swipe Outlooks launch, so they make an identically sized cute-ute look completely different than the current Vue....
Don't get me wrong, I look forward to having a look at the 08, but being a completely new car, I'd wait a few years before I'd buy...Although, my Silven will likely be a keeper becasue the poly is gone, and the retro look is not my cup of tea.....
We shall see....
99blacktop
10-13-2006, 10:56 PM
Rename it? Why? I'm confused. How many people outside of the Saturn family can actually identify the model of a Saturn? I have NEVER had a non-Saturn owner come up to me and refer to my SL2 or SC2 by name, and even today, very few people actually refer to my VUE as anything other than "a Saturn." The majority of the time, my Saturns are referred to as "the red one" and "the black one." Some people might be able to identify the black one, but I'm willing to bet that at least 80 out of 100 people would have no idea what model the red one is. Whether they keep the VUE a VUE, or rename it to something else, it is still going to just be a Saturn to the average person.
At first glance, I didn't like the redesign of the '06 model, I still don't. I don't like the sneak peeks of the '08 model either and I'm 99% sure that I won't when I see it in person. But, just because it looks different is no reason to rename it. I may not like the visual changes they are making, but when it comes to cars, change is good, for the most part.
What exactly makes the current VUE a VUE and gives it the right to keep it's name? As long as the body type remains the same, it can remain a VUE. If they were to convert it to a pickup or something along the lines of a Chevy Avalanche, then yes, they should rename it, but they aren't. I'm not sure where you are coming up with the idea that "it will be a completely different car." From the pics I've seen, it's still a 4 door SUV.
Other than plastic (and the buying experience), what ever made Saturn anything other than "just another car?" Sure, it had some better parts than it's competitors (full stainless exhaust comes to mind) but nothing I would call innovative. My '93 didn't even have cupholders!
page2171
10-13-2006, 11:04 PM
Point taken :upset: :hmpf: :ugh: :x
It's not nor is it ever going to be near as good.
How do you know? You have only seen pictures, you haven't seen one in real life, you haven't driven one...oh wait... no polymer. Well then, go buy your polymer Honda or Toyota...wait...they don't make them either!
Speedy
10-14-2006, 01:38 PM
I normally stay out of threads such as these, because I'm no expert on auto economics, "platforms," "design," "styling," and model specific history. I'd say I'm a slightly above average consumer, by which I mean that I'm not the kind of sheep that follows the herd (flock?). I tend to follow the traditional 3months/3 thousand miles kind of car care, but also dabble in adding aftermarket accessories and add-ons.
Saturn was, and no longer is, "A different kind of car, a different kind of car company." When it was true, it wasn't just a slogan but a statement of fact. They did not try to compete with high-end, larger cars (later SUV's) but chose the smaller cars and cheaper segment (marketers and people with sensitive skin call this "compact, economy").
Everyone complains how GM/Saturn didn't keep up with the S series and that's why it ultimately was discontinued..yet you want to do the same for the VUE?
My '95 SL2 is still in the family and on the road. I wish they were still selling that car new. Amazing what "keeping up" means in the minds of the various people with a stake in it. My mind says refine production methods and materials of virtually the same design over the course of several years to ultimately drive prices further down, resulting in larger sales due to a more affordable product. This is the exact opposite to the thinking of auto manufacturers who add new "features" each year to drive the cost up, perform needless "redesigns," confuse consumers on year-to-year differences, and ultimately kill the vehicle model.
The 02-05 design can't go on forever.
You are absolutely right. Progress and innovation demand change over time. But three years is nothing in the design of vehicles. This doesn't even give the folks at Haynes or Chilton a chance to begin writing a manual for the public before the model is discontinued.
I just traded my '04 VUE for an '07. Had it not been a VTi (read new feature here) I wouldn't have done it. I only bought the '07 because as I understand it, there will be no more "plastic" Saturns. I'm keeping the '07 until the wheels fall off. But was it really necessary to change the look of the front end? Or add that big HUGE fake chrome "eyebrow" on the rear hatch? Or get rid of the non-painted lower body, bumper, and mirrors? No. But what else can they do and justify not dropping the price each year?
Its almost like they dumped it because it would swipe Outlooks launch, so they make an identically sized cute-ute look completely different than the current Vue....
I agree, but kinda funny if you think about it. In the first few years of the VUE nearly everyone complained about low sales or said it was a bad product. Now you can't take a step without tripping over a VUE in my part of the country. Not bad for a car that no one bought. I guess the brilliant minds at GM thought that a car that is actually selling well would hurt their next step up from it.
Heck they should rename the brand... OpWoo, or how about DaePel, because IMHO, it is no longer Saturn, they have lost their identity, and innovativeness, they are a car developed by some other car company, that just happens to have Saturn badges on them. They are in short "just another car".
I saw changes in Saturn after purchasing our 2000 LS2 (yes that is the L-series). Things were fine until about 2002, when the service just started going to crap. Every time a technician would touch our car, they broke something. They even forgot to put parts back into the car after working on it. I switched dealers thinking the problem was isolated there and quickly found out that the Saturn "experience" was gone. Sure many of the salesmen are still quite different from those on other car lots. But everything else is the same. Once you purchase the vehicle, they've gotten all they want from you and could care less if you walk away happy or not. Additionally the Saturns themselves are not what they used to be. Yes they have always been a little cheaper on the build side, but only insofar as the "plastic" feel of the interior, not the quality of the engine, transmission, etc. That was reflected in the price you paid for them. GM talks about improving Saturn's quality, but I've owned a '95, '00, '04 and now an '07 and I just don't see "quality" improvement over the years. Maybe some sound deadening. But nothing that I couldn't have done with $20 worth of Peel 'n Seal.
To end this rant, I'll give you my two cents on the "Why" for the redesign. GM re-absorbed Saturn. End of story. Yes, yes, Saturn was always a part of GM, but the fundimental way in which they operated nearly every facet of the division was different from any other manufacturer. Now they are wholley GM. While nearly every other segment of GM lost money or sales or both, Saturn was doing all right. Not great, but all right. So instead of letting a success story remain or become a bigger one, they decided to cannibalize the division and attempt to capture some of its success. Somehow Saturn went from a small car company (this includes the "compact SUV" in the VUE) to a company that will no longer just sell small cars. Identity Crisis? You bet. Saturn is attempting to sell the Ion and the VUE, which they could do well, alongside the Relay and the Aura. A Frankenstein mini-van and a poor attempt at an economy-luxury vehicle. Throw in the Outlook (a big SUV when you just introduced the Greenline VUE???) and redesign the VUE, and it is no wonder people cannot figure out what a Saturn is.
My new purchase of my 2007 V6 VUE will likely be the last Saturn I get. If I want an all steel car and have to deal with piss poor service, I'll just get a Toyota or a Honda.
davidsky
10-14-2006, 01:41 PM
[QUOTE]It will be a completely different car, so why not? (There is precedent after all, take the Plymouth Valiant, when it was redesigned it took on a new name Plymouth Duster.)
The Duster was the coupe version of the Valiant. They were sold alongside each other.
Yes I have heard the Honda Civic argument (for that matter, almost any Honda car), the original Civic doesn't even come close to the Civic of today, but was the original Civic as successful as the "original' VUE?
Yes.
Is the styling your complaint? Are there any small- mid size SUVs that you like?
The proper answer to your question is;
Because they feel like it. :p
davidsky
10-14-2006, 01:59 PM
They finally get it right (knock on wood), and they dump it. I think there is tons of things they could do to make it better - redesign back seats for more seat height, add a hidden cargo area, put nav in as an option, make the AWD a real 4WD.....etc....
Changing all that requires a redesign. One of the Vues biggest problems is road noise. Changing to metal is a solution to that problem. A new AWD system would require new chassis, suspension and mounting points, also requires a redesigned body. Rattles over time are another problem, they're caused by excessive body flex. GM needs to design the body so the pillars are larger so they don't flex as much and will hold up better in an accident.
The VUE also needs to come standard with head curtain airbags and stability control.
So tell me again..why is it being redesigned?
Because GM isn't doing the 10 year product cycles it's famous, and constantly lambasted for. And as I always say when people like you come up with rediculous things to whine about; "When you're the General, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't."
Polymer is going away and nobody cares much except a handfull of people, so maybe they should keep losing money, and being criticized for it since like 5 people care. :snide: They are using steel, cutting cost, improving fit and finish, including panel gaps, and NVH, but it's a travesty. :ugh:
They were a seperate entity bleeding money, but they are integrated into corperate now with a good strategy, and a good brand identity, but now they suck because they have a decent line-up that keeps getting better. :ugh:
It will be on the same chassis, but as with everything that platform is always being improved. As well the VUE will be that last "Old Saturn" which is dead. Saturn has changed, and the only thing it'll be taking with it is the VUE name. Names have equity, and that is why you can still buy a Civic, and Camry, that have zero in common with the ones that were out 15 years ago. The L-series is gone, and the AURA is here because that name had bad connotations to it. The VUE name will live on since people actually really like their VUEs, and the public has a good perception of it. The S-series name died, not because it was a bad car, but because it was the same damn thing for 11 years, and people knew it. So they changed it when it came out to show people the ION wasn't just a re-dressed Z-body as most would expect if it carried the S-series badge, and therefore they might stay away, even thought it was actually different. They want people to come back to the VUE even thought it's somewhat different, since they haven't screwed up that name. If Saturn gets a Lambda based mini-van in addition to the Outlook, I will gaurantee you it will not be called Relay. :no:
SaturnSales
10-14-2006, 02:35 PM
Why is it being redesigned? well the typical life cycle of car lines is 5 years... The Ion and VUE came out in 2002, it is now 2005, time to bring out a new product so the design doesn't get stale... and not just a few minor changes like what was done for 2006. Saturn is now on the 5 year cycle just like everyone else... I think that may be a good thing, but time will tell... now GM/Saturn has added new product into the mix all at the same time... So by the end of next year everything will be all new... this is the revitalization of Saturn... The Ion replacement will carry the Astra name... it will be a whole new car... the replacement for the VUE actually hasn't been named yet... my manager just got back from a meeting in LA and they were NOT calling it a new VUE... they were calling it our next small SUV... I guess we'll find out soon enough about that... It was also mentioned that the Corsa may be here sooner than 5 years... but I don't know...Our next small SUV is a complete redesign... it will be one inch taller and one inch wider... but from what I have heard it will be a little shorter.... I guess we'll find out next month... I;m guessing they will change the name and will adapt the XE and XR badging as well... we can expect to see the XE and XR badges on all Saturns in the future.. except maybe the SKY... and there is talk of more green line versions of vehicles and more red line versions :)
Here is the current Saturn line up
Sky
Ion Coupe and sedan
Aura
Vue
Relay
Near as I can tell this will be the Saturn Line up soon
Sky
Corsa 3 door hatch
Astra 3 door hatch AND 5 door hatch
Aura
next small suv
Outlook
Rumored future product
Astra wagon AWD
SLAPSHOT
10-14-2006, 07:38 PM
Anyway, they redesigned the interior, which is light years ahead of the older iterations
And how many "older" Vues have you owned? "Light years ahead" is a big stretch don't you think? The 06's have a redesigned front end and a slightly different interior.....hardly "light years" ahead of anything, but you're always hating on the pre '06 models, so I guess it's to be expected.
I think there is tons of things they could do to make it better - redesign back seats for more seat height, add a hidden cargo area, put nav in as an option, make the AWD a real 4WD.....etc....
You say they "finally get it right" and in the very next sentence you have a list of things "they" could do better.....make up your mind. :rolleyes: I'm not crazy about the early pics of the "redesigned" Vue either, but I'll wait until the final version is sitting on the lot and I get a chance to see and drive it before spouting off. Everyone's trippin' over some spy shots and speculation, it doesn't make sense and also isn't a good way to do business.
Tommy D
10-15-2006, 12:20 AM
I'll wait until the final version is sitting on the lot and I get a chance to see and drive it before spouting off. Everyone's trippin' over some spy shots and speculation, it doesn't make sense and also isn't a good way to do business.
I agree, we will not know for sure what has been changed until we see it the dealers show room.
DesertPuma
10-16-2006, 01:39 PM
DesertPuma, you sure seem to have awful strong opinions about the next gen VUE without any hard information about it.
And on a related note, that Wikipedia article is useless. Suzuki and China had nothing to do with the design of the VUE or any other Theta short of the XL7.
Not just the VUE... the entire lineup.
mellissam
10-16-2006, 02:45 PM
Slapshot....I have made up my mind. The current Vue is a great car, I own one...well, now it is a year old in terms of model year. Is there room for improvement? Yes. If they stuck with the platform and poly for another couple of years, they could do even better, and I gave areas where they could improve. A whole new platform to save dollars on poly seems excessive. I am certainly not trashing the older Vues...they were great cars for their time. BTW - this is a bulletin board, a place to express thoughts and ideas....:D
Except for the odd lemon out of the factory, the current Vue seems quite strong. They fixed a few bugs along the way, and now have a great base to work with...they could easily make the odd cosmetic changes to keep up with 'Jones's' and keep the bean counters happy.....jmho
I just thought the poly was such a great innovation, only to dump it completely seems like a waste.
sspeer
10-16-2006, 03:52 PM
I think the platform needs a huge upgrade...I've never felt that the ride was that nice (especially on rough stuff) and it flexes alot, causing rattles and creaks.
I need to take mine in to the dealer because it squeaks and feels like jumping on your grandmothers old bed when going over bumps or turning
Just about every other car company has come out with a new small SUV platform since the VUE was introduced in 2002..GM can't afford to get behind the curve
fatabbot
10-16-2006, 04:11 PM
Just about every other car company has come out with a new small SUV platform since the VUE was introduced in 2002..GM can't afford to get behind the curve
Exactly, the VUE is becoming antiquated.
You have a new Rav4, CRV, Ford Edge, Sante Fe, Outlander, etc. All of which have gotten better reviews and ratings than the VUE ever did.
I like the VUE, but those that think it will really be able to compete for years to come on the current platform are on something (and I want in on it :p )....
DesertPuma
10-16-2006, 04:30 PM
Exactly, the VUE is becoming antiquated.
You have a new Rav4, CRV, Ford Edge, Sante Fe, Outlander, etc. All of which have gotten better reviews and ratings than the VUE ever did.
I like the VUE, but those that think it will really be able to compete for years to come on the current platform are on something (and I want in on it :p )....
The original intent of this thread is to point out that there is an article posted in SF News that states that the VUE (polymer, AWD, EPS, and all) is tied with the Hyundai Tucson (which in itself is a surprise, I don't think much of Hyundais after a quick test drive of one nearly boiled over) as Tops in Total Value...and they are effing it up by undergoing this unneeded and radical redesign.
Again...why mess with success?
fatabbot
10-16-2006, 04:56 PM
The original intent of this thread is to point out that there is an article posted in SF News that states that the VUE (polymer, AWD, EPS, and all) is tied with the Hyundai Tucson (which in itself is a surprise, I don't think much of Hyundais after a quick test drive of one nearly boiled over) as Tops in Total Value...and they are effing it up by undergoing this unneeded and radical redesign.
Again...why mess with success?
GM could care less how well a model does in the owner/utility/value surveys if it doesn't increase their sales.
It's all about the $$$. Really, how hard is it to understand? I mean, since the Honda Civic always wins its class in the same awards, Honda shouldn't EVER need to redesign the Civic. Right? :ugh: We should still be driving Civics made on 15 year old platforms!
What is it about Saturn owners that make them fear change so much? VUE owners like their cars. That satisfaction hasn't really produced a sales boom. The VUE has sold **reasonably** well, but hasn't just been a cash cow for GM and is facing stiffer competition.
Since when is a 6 year life span for a car model inappropriate?
DesertPuma
10-16-2006, 05:43 PM
GM could care less how well a model does in the owner/utility/value surveys if it doesn't increase their sales.
It's all about the $$$. Really, how hard is it to understand? I mean, since the Honda Civic always wins its class in the same awards, Honda shouldn't EVER need to redesign the Civic. Right? :ugh: We should still be driving Civics made on 15 year old platforms!
What is it about Saturn owners that make them fear change so much? VUE owners like their cars. That satisfaction hasn't really produced a sales boom. The VUE has sold **reasonably** well, but hasn't just been a cash cow for GM and is facing stiffer competition.
Since when is a 6 year life span for a car model inappropriate?
Well I can care less what GM is doing to Saturn, and as such I will not be buying any future product from them. (I still plan on getting an '07 ION and then I will be leaving the Saturn family...sad to say. Something I thought would never happen after buying my SW2.)
I think 6 years is awfully short. I guess that says a lot about the "what have you done for me lately" mind-set. :x
fatabbot
10-16-2006, 05:47 PM
I think 6 years is awfully short. I guess that says a lot about the "what have you done for me lately" mind-set. :x
Well, when your competition often has model lifespans even shorter than 6 years, it means you fall behind quickly. As is the case with the VUE. After all, the Accord and Camry are the best selling cars here year after year yet they are restyled frequently. Should they just rest on their laurels? Somehow, they've learned from GM's mistakes much more than GM has :(
GM, hangs on to old platforms and does mild "refreshenings" way too often. Need we compare the recent successes of GM against Toyota and Honda?
I'm not trying to be combative here, just a good discussion.
Only Japan knows how to keep a big seller going with facelifts. Thats why they are so sucessfull at the auto game.
DesertPuma
10-16-2006, 06:14 PM
Well, when your competition often has model lifespans even shorter than 6 years, it means you fall behind quickly. As is the case with the VUE. After all, the Accord and Camry are the best selling cars here year after year yet they are restyled frequently. Should they just rest on their laurels? Somehow, they've learned from GM's mistakes much more than GM has :(
GM, hangs on to old platforms and does mild "refreshenings" way too often. Need we compare the recent successes of GM against Toyota and Honda?
I'm not trying to be combative here, just a good discussion.
I've never owned a Honda nor Toyota so it's hard for me to compare. (Although I will admit the Tundra is going to be a serious contendor when deciding what is going to replace the VUE in a few years, then again the Tundra may not be around by then, so who knows? Honda is not even in the running, because my next truck will be a TRUCK, not a car that thinks it's a truck.)
Only Japan knows how to keep a big seller going with facelifts. Thats why they are so sucessfull at the auto game.
That's because it doesn't matter what they look like. They always look pretty lame, or crappy, and people have been falsely conditioned to believe that they are somehow better despite the boooring looks.
fatabbot
10-16-2006, 06:57 PM
That's because it doesn't matter what they look like. They always look pretty lame, or crappy, and people have been falsely conditioned to believe that they are somehow better despite the boooring looks.
So are you saying that Ford or GM designs great looking vehicles, in comparison?
To me a Malibu, Cobalt, Focus, Taurus, 500, Fusion, etc. are just as bland as the Accord or Camry. There are exceptions on both side (like the G6, Altima, etc.), but I fail to see how the Americans have any considerable edge on overall styling.
I still don't understand this continuing implication that the Japanese automakers can crank out best seller after best seller only because somehow the media and advertising brainwashes us all. Oh well....
fatabbot
10-16-2006, 06:58 PM
I've never owned a Honda nor Toyota so it's hard for me to compare. (Although I will admit the Tundra is going to be a serious contendor when deciding what is going to replace the VUE in a few years, then again the Tundra may not be around by then, so who knows? Honda is not even in the running, because my next truck will be a TRUCK, not a car that thinks it's a truck.)
Yeah, I am a fan of the Tundra. However, I still have some sort of weird loyalty to domestic trucks. Dodge, Chevy or Ford, they all work for me :)
DesertPuma
10-16-2006, 07:17 PM
Yeah, I am a fan of the Tundra. However, I still have some sort of weird loyalty to domestic trucks. Dodge, Chevy or Ford, they all work for me :)
I used to own a Dakota, and up until that time I was a Dodge loyalist, that truck was a real POS (ended up trading it in for the SW2). But then on a recent business trip I ended up with a Dakota 2WD Extended Cab as a renter (all I needed was a small or medium car, but arrived late, they told me I had a choice between a P/U truck or a Mini-Van....needless to say I chose the P/U Truck) I ended up coming away impressed with that truck. (Though if I were to buy one it would definitely need to be a 4X4.)
Yep, it's a real tossup between the Tundra and the Titan for my next truck, I will cross that bridge when I get there, but I have an ION QC to buy first that will replace the SW2, got to get back in the Polymer pool until it (unfortunately) dries out.
fatabbot
10-16-2006, 07:30 PM
Yep, it's a real tossup between the Tundra and the Titan for my next truck, I will cross that bridge when I get there, but I have an ION QC to buy first that will replace the SW2, got to get back in the Polymer pool until it (unfortunately) dries out.
If it's down between the Tundra and Titan, the Tundra is the clear winner. The Titan (and the Armada/QX56) has been plagued with quality issues, as have most new Nissan models that have come out in the last 5 years. I like the looks and the powertrain of the Titan better, but I'll never buy another Nissan. My 2002 Spec-V was a huge POS.
KrgION03
10-16-2006, 08:14 PM
Glad to see that the MINI took top honers in three categories, including best overall model...guess I picked a good one.
As for the VUE, I agree it's a great SUV. Rented one on a trip this past summer and loved it. I think the new one will be even better though.
mellissam
10-16-2006, 09:34 PM
If it's down between the Tundra and Titan, the Tundra is the clear winner. The Titan (and the Armada/QX56) has been plagued with quality issues, as have most new Nissan models that have come out in the last 5 years. I like the looks and the powertrain of the Titan better, but I'll never buy another Nissan. My 2002 Spec-V was a huge POS.
A wee bit off topic, but my Dad used to own a Nissan dealership, and as such I was a Nissan loyalist, until I asked him recently about buying a Nissan...he said stay away!
I think we are brainwashed to believe to Toyo's, Honda's, Nissan's are better because they 'did' produce the best cars until recently...now the race to the best is a little more even, at least through my eyes. However, it takes time to change attitudes, simple PR psychology. GM will have to produce the best for a number of years until it loses it's moniker of 'built to fail' or is that Ford....Anyway, it takes time to change attitudes; whether GM can stay the course and produce better and better cars, and win quality awards year after year remains to be seen....
I thought poly was a unique and leading edge technology...changing the platform is my 'small' beef, as perhaps, they designed a better chassis for crashes, for more room, for less torquing etc....
Speaking of torque, I think the v6 is too powerful for the current theta platform...nothing concrete, just a hunch after reading about what appears to be more issues with v6......at the very least, they should have put all-round disc brakes....
fatabbot
10-16-2006, 09:44 PM
A wee bit off topic, but my Dad used to own a Nissan dealership, and as such I was a Nissan loyalist, until I asked him recently about buying a Nissan...he said stay away!
Smart man! ;)
Having said that, Nissan hasn't been mentioned in the same realm as Honda and Toyota for a long, long time. Hondas and Toyota do have excellent service records. However, I usually buy domestics because I find I can get a lot more car for the money. No matter how much money I make, I can't quite seem to spend much on a car. It's a stupid financial decision. Therefore, it's much more entertaining to shop domestic brands, as they have much more to offer for cheap people like me.
sspeer
10-16-2006, 09:59 PM
The original intent of this thread is to point out that there is an article posted in SF News that states that the VUE (polymer, AWD, EPS, and all) is tied with the Hyundai Tucson (which in itself is a surprise, I don't think much of Hyundais after a quick test drive of one nearly boiled over) as Tops in Total Value...and they are effing it up by undergoing this unneeded and radical redesign.
Again...why mess with success?
I wouldn't call this suvey the pinnacle of success. when the VUE starts winning surveys such as SUV of the Year and JD Power most appealing, then they may have something. Value doesn't equal satisfaction or more importantly to GM..continued profit.
The 4 cylinder 5M VUE is definitely a super value..but Saturns have always been price sensitive to options.. as a $17K SUV it's pretty darn nice..but loaded up, it can nearly double in price..and there are alot of nice options in the upper $20Ks
Not just the VUE... the entire lineup.
Huh??
I think 6 years is awfully short. I guess that says a lot about the "what have you done for me lately" mind-set. :x
You think a 6 year run is short? Good thing you're not heading up an auto company in this day & age when a 4-5 year cycle is more the norm and a car that's been on the market for 6 years is getting long in the tooth. Your 6-year cycle would be a full cycle behind in 12 years compared to your best competition. It's definitely time to update the VUE.
Since the VUE has come out, the following vehicles have been introduced or re-done:
Rav4
CRV
Tuscon
Santa Fe
Sorento
Hylander
Grand Vitara
How much longer should the VUE stay basically the same as it has been?
BobbyP
10-16-2006, 10:37 PM
Speaking of torque, I think the v6 is too powerful for the current theta platform...nothing concrete, just a hunch after reading about what appears to be more issues with v6......at the very least, they should have put all-round disc brakes....
m - We want more, more, more POWER!!!!!!!!!!! :)
s-seriesguy
10-16-2006, 10:46 PM
What do you expect? GM is good a discontinuing or totally screwing up the desing of cars.
jdmessner
10-17-2006, 08:40 AM
6 years really is too short of a life-span. From introduction to the first redesign 4 years. First redesign to complete overhaul, 2 years. Thats not much by way of a success if you ask me.
The model has offered 5 different transmissions and 3 different engines all in the first 3 years (2002-2005). That tells me that GM never got the formula quite right.
Compare that to say, the ford F-150. Since 1996, it has offered the same 4 engines (V-6, 2 V-8's and a Diesel) and the same 3 transmissions. Until 2004, the design remained nearly unchanged.
Ford Taurus. Intorduced in 1986, it offered 2 engines and 2 transmissions. The design remained inchanged into 1991, when it got some minor sheet metal changes. By 1995, the Taurus was the best selling car in America. Since 1996, the basic design of the Taurus has remained unchanged. That's a 20 year run, with only 2 redesigns. That's success.
Look at Honda. The Accord was introduced in 1976! it underwent a major redesign in 1985, then again in 1994! That was 10 years of the same Accord! Same 2 available engines, same 2 available transmissions. The third redesign was in 1995 and it remained in production for 8 more years. Again, that's a success.
In that same time span, Saturn has built, marketed and dropped 2 entire car lines, and has since spun into automotive oblivion. Nothing they build is original or innovative. It's all cookie cutter cost saving platform shared garbage. It's akin to a once successful sitcom that's in it's last season. The jokes are old and strained. The magic is gone. Creativity has long since been abandoned.
RIP Saturn.... I will miss you.
6 years really is too short of a life-span. From introduction to the first redesign 4 years. First redesign to complete overhaul, 2 years. Thats not much by way of a success if you ask me. 15 years ago, you might be right.
The model has offered 5 different transmissions and 3 different engines all in the first 3 years (2002-2005). That tells me that GM never got the formula quite right.3.0L V6, and VTi = crap. They did have to do some Powetrain wrangling. It was actually 4 transmissions, and 3 engines, where'd you get 5? OK 4 with the 2.4L Hybrid actually.
Compare that to say, the ford F-150. Since 1996, it has offered the same 4 engines (V-6, 2 V-8's and a Diesel) and the same 3 transmissions. Until 2004, the design remained nearly unchanged.The truck category is a whole different beast, and doens't compare to the small crossover SUV segment whatsoever. And even Truck cycles have gotten shorter. '96-'03 for Ford, '99-'06 for GM, '94-'99 for Dodge. The powertrains have stayed somewhat the same, but again, they are trucks, not cars, which is essentially what a VUE is, a car.
Ford Taurus. Intorduced in 1986, it offered 2 engines and 2 transmissions. The design remained inchanged into 1991, when it got some minor sheet metal changes. By 1995, the Taurus was the best selling car in America. Since 1996, the basic design of the Taurus has remained unchanged. That's a 20 year run, with only 2 redesigns. That's success.Like I said, 15 years ago, you might be right. THe Taurus actualy had 3 complete redesgins, and multiple facelifts over those years, and was the best seller until the first major re-design when it handed the crown over to the Camry, and continued sliding further, and further, until it disappeard this past year without so much as whimper from the public.
Look at Honda. The Accord was introduced in 1976! it underwent a major redesign in 1985, then again in 1994! That was 10 years of the same Accord! Same 2 available engines, same 2 available transmissions. The third redesign was in 1995 and it remained in production for 8 more years. Again, that's a success.The '76 Accord, and the current one have about as much in common as the Chevy Citation, and the Cobalt SS, which is to say, NOTHING! The last one was done in '03, ands it's due to be redesigned in '08. 4 years :snide:
RIP Saturn.... I will miss you.The old Saturn is dead, I've been saying that for a long time.
"Saturn is dead, long live Saturn!"
6 years really is too short of a life-span. From introduction to the first redesign 4 years. First redesign to complete overhaul, 2 years. Thats not much by way of a success if you ask me.
The model has offered 5 different transmissions and 3 different engines all in the first 3 years (2002-2005). That tells me that GM never got the formula quite right.
Compare that to say, the ford F-150. Since 1996, it has offered the same 4 engines (V-6, 2 V-8's and a Diesel) and the same 3 transmissions. Until 2004, the design remained nearly unchanged.
Ford Taurus. Intorduced in 1986, it offered 2 engines and 2 transmissions. The design remained inchanged into 1991, when it got some minor sheet metal changes. By 1995, the Taurus was the best selling car in America. Since 1996, the basic design of the Taurus has remained unchanged. That's a 20 year run, with only 2 redesigns. That's success.
Look at Honda. The Accord was introduced in 1976! it underwent a major redesign in 1985, then again in 1994! That was 10 years of the same Accord! Same 2 available engines, same 2 available transmissions. The third redesign was in 1995 and it remained in production for 8 more years. Again, that's a success.
In that same time span, Saturn has built, marketed and dropped 2 entire car lines, and has since spun into automotive oblivion. Nothing they build is original or innovative. It's all cookie cutter cost saving platform shared garbage. It's akin to a once successful sitcom that's in it's last season. The jokes are old and strained. The magic is gone. Creativity has long since been abandoned.
RIP Saturn.... I will miss you.
As with desertpuma, it's a good thing you're nto calling the shots at Saturn. a 7 model year run for a vehicle without a major redesign is much too long.
You find something wrong with offering 3 different engines & 5 transmissions over that time period?
Until '04 there were three combinations:
4cyl - manual trans
4cyl - CTV trans
6 cyl - Aisin 5-speed trans
In '04 the Honda engine was added as a result of an agreement between Honda and GM. It's doubtful that GM made that deal specifically to get that engine in the VUE. Odds are it simply ended up in the VUE because the volume was about right.
Then a step-transmission was added to go with the 4cyl.
That doesn't seem excessive to me.
And let's look at the Taurus by model year.
http://info.detnews.com/dn/pix/2005/04/19/biz/taurus_sales_gfx_041905.jpg
By the end of the first generation run in '91, sales had dropped off dramatically. With the start of the second generation they went back up, but then declined slightly (slightly is probably due to Ford incentivising them in the race for best-selling car). 96-99? Another peak and decline. 2000+ another peak and decline. Looking at that chart, the Taurus should have been redesigned for '89 and not '91. And I cound 4 different designs (3 re-designs) for the Taurus.
Ummm....
Honda Accord:
1st generation '76-81
2nd generation '82-'85
3rd generation '86-'89
4th generation '90-93
5th generation '94-97
6th generation '98-02
7th generation '03-07
Looks like about 4 years per generation to me.
And look at the successful Civic
1st generation '73-79
2nd generation '79-83
3rd generation '83-87
4th generation '88-91
5th generation '92-95
6th generation '96-2000
7th generation '01-05
8th generation '06+
So when IS it time to replace the VUE?
fatabbot
10-17-2006, 01:18 PM
The VUE will have been sold under 7 different model years by the time it's replaced.
The current generation will run through 2008?
2002
2003
2004
2005
2006
2007
The current generation will run through 2008?
2002
2003
2004
2005
2006
2007
Typo. My bad. Fixed it.
MJD1001
10-17-2006, 01:37 PM
Another reason it is being redesigned is to introduce people to Saturn that have never had one before. My sister (who buys GM products but never a saturn) thinks the new Vue is the vehicle for her after seeing a picture of the Opel Antara. Also, a cousin of mine who has purchased nothing but VW's and Hondas saw the picture and can't wait to see the new Vue in person.
DesertPuma
10-17-2006, 06:18 PM
Another reason it is being redesigned is to introduce people to Saturn that have never had one before.
While at the same time, it's pushing others away.
My sister (who buys GM products but never a saturn) thinks the new Vue is the vehicle for her after seeing a picture of the Opel Antara. Also, a cousin of mine who has purchased nothing but VW's and Hondas saw the picture and can't wait to see the new Vue in person.
To each his own. :rolleyes: :ugh:
DesertPuma
10-17-2006, 06:25 PM
Huh??
I don't like any of the new Saturns coming out, not a single one
You think a 6 year run is short? Good thing you're not heading up an auto company in this day & age when a 4-5 year cycle is more the norm and a car that's been on the market for 6 years is getting long in the tooth. Your 6-year cycle would be a full cycle behind in 12 years compared to your best competition. It's definitely time to update the VUE.
Since the VUE has come out, the following vehicles have been introduced or re-done:
Rav4
CRV
Tuscon
Santa Fe
Sorento
Hylander
Grand Vitara
How much longer should the VUE stay basically the same as it has been?
How long was the VW Beetle (not the "New", the Classic) around? Circa 50 years? Without one major redesign. Same basic oil-cooled engine, same basic transaxle.
The VW Beetle Type I (and it's brethren, Types, II, III, and IV) is quite arguably the most successful car in history. And many of them are still running today.
MJD1001
10-17-2006, 07:39 PM
While at the same time, it's pushing others away.
To each his own. :rolleyes: :ugh:
Well hey, the question was asked why it is being redesigned, and I gave a valid answer. If you don't like the answer...then don't ask the question.
DesertPuma
10-17-2006, 07:57 PM
Well hey, the question was asked why it is being redesigned, and I gave a valid answer. If you don't like the answer...then don't ask the question.
Granted...but if I had my druthers I would leave it alone, but hey, that's just me, I think the new design is atrocious, and as such, I am not interested. (I didn't like the '06 redesign either, at least externally anyway, but I can live with it, at least they kept the polymer with that design.)
I do believe Ritz answer is the right one though....cuz it's cheaper. And THAT really "chaps my hide". :upset:
(I am somewhat pleasantly surprised by the number of responses to this thread, however.)
How long was the VW Beetle (not the "New", the Classic) around? Circa 50 years? Without one major redesign. Same basic oil-cooled engine, same basic transaxle.
The VW Beetle Type I (and it's brethren, Types, II, III, and IV) is quite arguably the most successful car in history. And many of them are still running today.
Well it better be the most successful, if you build the friggin' thing for 50 friggin' years. Comparing the the VUE to a car designed after WWII is not helping your case. They don't sell many VUEs in 3rd world countries in stripped-down trim for a few thousand dollars do they? How about the New Beetle, you know something modern, and comparable? It has gotten a re-fresh already, after what 8 years? They can't redesign it, it's a friggin' Beetle, I think they kinda painted themselves into a corner on that one. :p
ketch
10-17-2006, 09:59 PM
Actually, reading the details thus far of the 2008, it does seem a more refined offerring, but of course we will have to wait and see. In the mentime we can likley read road tests in overseas mags like CAR for how the Antara fairs.
Overall, it seems nice, but I do see what appears to a slight size reduction, closer to a Hyundai Tucson perhaps. If so, that for me would be a deal killer when replacing my 03. With two kids and the wife, the current Vue's size is perfect and was a selling point for us (The back seat leg room is huge). Reducing that and it makes no sense.
BTW, I still love the 'butch' look of our 2003, black bumpers and all. Hate the current 'sissy-fied chromed, color keyed and grill that looks like it sucked a lemon, look. The new 2008 seems ok, but to my eyes, I prefer the 2003, still, 3 years later.
Actually, reading the details thus far of the 2008, it does seem a more refined offerring, but of course we will have to wait and see. In the mentime we can likley read road tests in overseas mags like CAR for how the Antara fairs.
Overall, it seems nice, but I do see what appears to a slight size reduction, closer to a Hyundai Tucson perhaps. If so, that for me would be a deal killer when replacing my 02. With two kids and the wife, the current Vue's size is perfect and was a selling point for us (The back seat leg room is huge). Reducing that and it makes no sense.
They are downsizing it to move it away from the new larger Outlook. I don't know where the reduction of size is comming from, whether it's the rear seat, or rear storage. I think it will be the same in both respects, but a better use of the space and a shrinking of the outer dimensions.
ketch
10-17-2006, 10:09 PM
Ya, had read the smaller size was to prevent treading on the Outlook, but THAT CUV is too large size and budget wise to me. If the new Vue is just smaller outside w/o any noticeable reduction inside, then great. Road tests will tell the tale of the tape. I plan to search out the upcoming issues of CAR to see what is being said 'over there' about the Opel.
...on another subject, I do wish they'd federalize the Corsa and get it here. I'd buy one now. Sounds like we have to wait for the next gen. Damn.
Ya, had read the smaller size was to prevent treading on the Outlook, but THAT CUV is too large size and budget wise to me. If the new Vue is just smaller outside w/o any noticeable reduction inside, then great. Road tests will tell the tale of the tape. I plan to search out the upcoming issues of CAR to see what is being said 'over there' about the Opel.
That's my assumption anyway. I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere too, and I'm not just making it up. We'll see I guess. :xeye:
99blacktop
10-17-2006, 11:22 PM
If they wanted to redesign every year, I wouldn't have any problem with that. My major complaint is that with every redesign, Saturn moves farther and farther away from what I consider appealing. I still think the best looking Saturn ever is the first gen coupe. I love speed, but the supercharger in the ION Red Line couldn't make up for the center mounted gauge cluster and general tackiness of the interior and the 250hp V6 in the VUE couldn't make up for lack of a manual transmission.
I've owned a Saturn since 1994, but Saturn isn't designing cars for me. I've only purchased 3 in 12 years, so they don't care what I think. The only respect I get from Saturn is the "do you mind if we show off your car?" that I get when I'm at the dealership. There have been a few times that a salesman has used my car to show a prospective customer that Saturns really are quality vehicles. Hearing "that car still looks brand new!" or "that car has 100,000 miles on it?!?!" never gets old. :)
My biggest pet peeve with new car designs (in general) is the "it will grow on you" excuse. Yeah, I'm gonna drop 25 grand for something that I might like once I've owned it for awhile.
DesertPuma
10-18-2006, 08:35 PM
Well it better be the most successful, if you build the friggin' thing for 50 friggin' years. Comparing the the VUE to a car designed after WWII is not helping your case. They don't sell many VUEs in 3rd world countries in stripped-down trim for a few thousand dollars do they? How about the New Beetle, you know something modern, and comparable? It has gotten a re-fresh already, after what 8 years? They can't redesign it, it's a friggin' Beetle, I think they kinda painted themselves into a corner on that one. :p
Uzzy, my friend:), my point is, here is a car that remained successful, despite the lack of design changes, despite the lack of "luxury and power". Maybe pricing was a huge factor.
I think design changes are unnecessary, especially if the current design is working. And I think in the VUE's case it is, it is still a very popular vehicle. (What's really driving the new design is the unfortunate dropping of polymer, and it will be, theoretically, "cheaper" to produce, yea right.)
Design "refreshes" only cause the Car company (any car company) to spend more $$$ on R&D and ultimately those costs are transferred to you and I in the form of higher priced cars.
It wouldn't surprise me if the "new VUE" ends up costing much more than the current offering. It wouldn't surprise me if it's upwards to 5K or more, thus making it prohibitive to buy, if the goal is to "improve sales" I am afraid this is going to be a backfire.
I am already hearing rumors (and admittedly, they are only rumors) that a Base Model Outlook is going to be around 32K, there is no way that is going to fly. For instance I like the VW Toureg (sp?), but there is no way I can justify paying 35K for one (a BMW maybe, but not a VW).
[sarcasm]Nice job GM[\sarcasm]
Time will tell.
Uzzy, my friend:), my point is, here is a car that remained successful, despite the lack of design changes, despite the lack of "luxury and power". Maybe pricing was a huge factor.Pricing was the ONLY factor. And it was not hugely successful, it was selling wnought to allow the Mexicans to keep building it. In the 60s, they undisputed heyday of automotive design, cars were changed every single mdel year. It' wasn't always a huge change, sometime very small, but most good autiphile can tell the difference between a '66, and '67 GTO, or a '68, and '69 Charger. It's sublte. But other cars had significant changes almost every single year.
I think design changes are unnecessary, especially if the current design is working. And I think in the VUE's case it is, it is still a very popular vehicle. (What's really driving the new design is the unfortunate dropping of polymer, and it will be, theoretically, "cheaper" to produce, yea right.)
At what point in time should a company decide whether or not to replace a vehicle. The VUE has been out since 2001. It is now 2006. When should GM make (or when should they have made) the decision to replace the VUE?
Citation84
10-19-2006, 10:49 AM
If they wanted to redesign every year, I wouldn't have any problem with that. My major complaint is that with every redesign, Saturn moves farther and farther away from what I consider appealing. I still think the best looking Saturn ever is the first gen coupe. I love speed, but the supercharger in the ION Red Line couldn't make up for the center mounted gauge cluster and general tackiness of the interior and the 250hp V6 in the VUE couldn't make up for lack of a manual transmission.
I've owned a Saturn since 1994, but Saturn isn't designing cars for me. I've only purchased 3 in 12 years, so they don't care what I think. The only respect I get from Saturn is the "do you mind if we show off your car?" that I get when I'm at the dealership. There have been a few times that a salesman has used my car to show a prospective customer that Saturns really are quality vehicles. Hearing "that car still looks brand new!" or "that car has 100,000 miles on it?!?!" never gets old. :)
My biggest pet peeve with new car designs (in general) is the "it will grow on you" excuse. Yeah, I'm gonna drop 25 grand for something that I might like once I've owned it for awhile.
Watch what happens when the polymer is dropped and the last Vue and ION have been sold......... My bet is they'll try to avoid the topic of the previous Saturn vehicles altogether. It would raise too many questions. Out with the old in with the new and never look back. Pretend the past never happened.
I'm sure GM will be happy the sooner all the old product moves on to the crusher.
Saturn had a reputation for selling the same old same old for most of it's existence. That too is something GM wants to get away from it seems. People complained about no new product from Saturn over and over again. Now they're replacing models and offering new product and it's turned into a criminal act. Not keeping up with the competition has killed GM in so many areas: small cars, passenger cars,mini vans, etc. But let's keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect different results...... Think British Leyland/Rover. It CAN happen here.
The new VUE looks good. That doesn't take anything away from the current one, but gives something fresh for Saturn to sell. You can't gather the pitch fork and flaming torch brigade because GM wants Saturn to compete and possibly turn a profit [horrors].:eek:
Citation84
10-19-2006, 11:15 AM
Additionally, perhaps this next VUE will be right from the beginning and Saturn [and GM ]won't need 4 or 5 years to finally get it right. [See also: ION, L Series, Relay].
While I am against planned obsolescence and change for the sake of change in general this new one might be smaller, quieter, better built, better trimmed, structurally stronger and more economical as well as having fewer teething problems at introduction than the Saturns of recent memory.Maybe that's why it's being redesigned
cdp326
10-23-2006, 06:09 PM
Uzzy, my friend:), my point is, here is a car that remained successful, despite the lack of design changes, despite the lack of "luxury and power". Maybe pricing was a huge factor.
I think design changes are unnecessary, especially if the current design is working. And I think in the VUE's case it is, it is still a very popular vehicle. (What's really driving the new design is the unfortunate dropping of polymer, and it will be, theoretically, "cheaper" to produce, yea right.)
Design "refreshes" only cause the Car company (any car company) to spend more $$$ on R&D and ultimately those costs are transferred to you and I in the form of higher priced cars.
It wouldn't surprise me if the "new VUE" ends up costing much more than the current offering. It wouldn't surprise me if it's upwards to 5K or more, thus making it prohibitive to buy, if the goal is to "improve sales" I am afraid this is going to be a backfire.
I am already hearing rumors (and admittedly, they are only rumors) that a Base Model Outlook is going to be around 32K, there is no way that is going to fly. For instance I like the VW Toureg (sp?), but there is no way I can justify paying 35K for one (a BMW maybe, but not a VW).
[sarcasm]Nice job GM[\sarcasm]
Time will tell.
So the VUE wins one award, and it's a perfect vehicle? :dizzy:
You may think the VUE doesn't need changes, but the fact is (yes, the fact) that it does. There is no stability control or front torso side airbags...there is no automatic A/C...the rear seat is uncomfortable for adults (and the fronts aren't perfect either)...the I4 performance leaves something to be desired next to I4 rivals...and so on. Sure, you may not care about these things, but the fact is that the press does, and buyers read these articles before they buy a car. Some things mentioned in Car and Driver's review of the 2002 VUE AWD V6 back when it was new included the less-than-comfortable seats, "videogame steering" (hint hint: EPS isn't perfect yet), cargo space that wasn't any larger than rivals despite the VUE's larger size, and so on.
The simple fact of the matter is that you DON'T let a car go on UNCHANGED. If you think 6 years is a short model lifespan, you're out of touch with the car market. Heck, even pickup trucks, vehicles that would go for more than a decade without big changes, now are on shorter lifespans. What do you think it was that got Saturn in this predicament in the first place? The minimally updated S-Series.
You don't simply rest on your laurels and say "Well, it's working, don't need to do anything." That's a poor decision in the car business, and the competition will eat your lunch and then your dinner if you do that. Toyota consistently sells more than 400,000 Camrys every year, Honda sells, what is it, near 375k? Do they say "Well, the design is working--no need to change it."? No. The Camry was redesigned for MY2007, the Accord will be for 2008. If you don't update your model, what's to keep people coming back? Who wants to buy the same model over and over? And "working" is awfully general. The Chevy Cavalier was "working" too, but that didn't mean they should keep it forever (though it did feel like it, huh? :D) A five year design cycle is generally accepted. (I have to wonder, JDMessner, if a 6-year cycle is too short then how can Honda and Toyota, with their 5-year cycles, be so great?)
The 2008 VUE is physically smaller but hardly enough to call "too small now" until we see hard numbers. Plus, there are other factors as well, such as the height of the load floor, that factor in the usability of the space.
The idea that the VUE has to be smaller to make room for the Outlook really doesn't hold water. The VUE is currently about 181", the Outlook about 200". The only reason the next VUE is smaller is because that's where it's headed.
And don't even try to use the Relay as an example of a failing steel-bodied Saturn. You could stick polymer panels on it and it wouldn't make it sell any better, I assure you. The Relay is an OK minivan with in a market where it has no brand recognition where there are very good minivans...that's the Relay's problem.
Where the heck did you see the Outlook will start at $32k? I'm sure you also missed the other facts and rumors from the same time and are just trying to make a steel-bodied Saturn look bad. The Outlook WILL NOT start at $32k.
MJD1001
10-23-2006, 06:14 PM
Where the heck did you see the Outlook will start at $32k? I'm sure you also missed the other facts and rumors from the same time and are just trying to make a steel-bodied Saturn look bad. The Outlook WILL NOT start at $32k.
I think GM has all but admitted the Outlook will be priced lower than the Acadia...and they offically announced the Acadia is going to start at just under $30k.
So we'll find out soon enough, but expect the outlook to start about $27-$28k
SaturnSales
10-23-2006, 06:38 PM
Here's a good reason why the VUE needs to be changed.... Yesterday I had a couple in their 30's come in to see the Aura... I took them for a drive in a XR... they loved it... absolutley loved it.. The husband wanted to see a VUE just to compare the 2... I grabbed the keys to a fully loaded VUE AWD V6 with leather.... they didn't even drive it... the comment that was made was that after being in the Aura the VUE was a huge dissappointment.. Saturn is moving a bit more upscale... the VUE is a good vehicle... but it is very utilitarian.... it does the job.. and does it well.. but people are looking for more of the creature comforts.. the VUE does not deliver on that.. it needs to be updated... BTW they drove home in the loaded XR...
Right off the Saturn Fans headlines. If it isn't broke, don't fix it! :upset: To put another way, don't mess with success!
http://www.saturnfans.com/Cars/VUE/2007/2006totalvaluevue.shtml
"Small" SUV? What would be a mid-size one then? WTF is a Hyundai Tucson?
I'd really like to wait another year or so for a new vehicle, but I'm tempted to get a 2007 VUE before Saturn ruins it. No polymer panels, sparse dealer support to start with, and if they're going to make it smaller, that probably means lower ground clearance which will end any interest for me.
Will the Equinox and Torrent stay the same for a few more years? I don't see the point of sticking with Saturn anymore.
Yes, why change a good thing? If they had more Saturn dealerships, it'd be the best selling vehicle in its class.
Here's a good reason why the VUE needs to be changed.... Yesterday I had a couple in their 30's come in to see the Aura... I took them for a drive in a XR... they loved it... absolutley loved it.. The husband wanted to see a VUE just to compare the 2... I grabbed the keys to a fully loaded VUE AWD V6 with leather.... they didn't even drive it... the comment that was made was that after being in the Aura the VUE was a huge dissappointment.. Saturn is moving a bit more upscale... the VUE is a good vehicle... but it is very utilitarian.... it does the job.. and does it well.. but people are looking for more of the creature comforts.. the VUE does not deliver on that.. it needs to be updated... BTW they drove home in the loaded XR...
Yes, that's a good point, I forgot to mention. It has to fit with Saturn's new place in the GM hierarchy. The VUE will be out of place with the Sky, Astra, Aura, and Outlook.
DesertPuma
10-23-2006, 08:54 PM
Here's a good reason why the VUE needs to be changed.... Yesterday I had a couple in their 30's come in to see the Aura... I took them for a drive in a XR... they loved it... absolutley loved it.. The husband wanted to see a VUE just to compare the 2... I grabbed the keys to a fully loaded VUE AWD V6 with leather.... they didn't even drive it... the comment that was made was that after being in the Aura the VUE was a huge dissappointment.. Saturn is moving a bit more upscale... the VUE is a good vehicle... but it is very utilitarian.... it does the job.. and does it well.. but people are looking for more of the creature comforts.. the VUE does not deliver on that.. it needs to be updated... BTW they drove home in the loaded XR...
Me personally... I don't need/want upscale...all I EVER look for in a car is practicality...period. The "new Saturn" does not provide that, the "old Saturn" fit that to a 'T', absolutely. Utilitarian, (good word) that's all I ever ask for in a car, anything else is overkill.
I do not want/need the following (as wolfman deftly labeled them as "doodads", I love that word :))
Leather (total waste of money, not to mention it hurts to sit down on Leather or Vinyl when it is 113 degrees outside, which is about 1/3 of the year here in Phx, AZ)
Heated/Cooled Seats (I can somewhat understand if you live in the "Snow Belt", I don't, again, waste of money)
Auto Seats :ugh:
Auto Headlights :rolleyes:
Auto A/C (Are you kidding me, that actually exists? How lazy are people getting anyway! Sheesh! :rolleyes: )
Auto Wipers...See previous comment.
Remote Starter...See previous comment.
Stability Control (I don't even know what that is, except that I know have lived without it for 20+ years, I am sure I will live without it for the next 20+ years, same with ABS, I will probably get flamed for that, but hey, I have lived without that too, never been in a position where I have EVER needed it)
I don't even need Power Locks, Power Doors, Power Windows, RKE, or anything of that ilk, but I did get On-Star, but unfortunately at the time, (and it probably is still true), one couldn't get On-Star (piece of mind, hands-free cell phone) or Advanced Audio (hey, I need my tunes! :)) without getting the "Power Package"
Leather (total waste of money, not to mention it hurts to sit down on Leather or Vinyl when it is 113 degrees outside, which is about 1/3 of the year here in Phx, AZ)Something I really want in my next car (wanted in this one, but didn't work out). My mom's only regret about her VUE is she didn't get leather.
Heated/Cooled Seats (I can somewhat understand if you live in the "Snow Belt", I don't, again, waste of money)
The cooled I'm sure you can understand, I know I can. I live in the snow/humidity belt. I would love to have both on any vehicle. Money well spent. :yes:
Auto Seats :ugh:
What's auto seats? Is that like seat position memory? Not a biggie for me, I just hate getting into my car in the very rare occasion someone beside me drove it, and the seat is pulled up ( I need it all the way back). I know this really burns some folks behind, but not a biggie for me.
Auto Headlights :rolleyes:
VUEs have tha anyway. I don't know why all cars don't, with all the idiots (especially in Chryslers/Dodges) that drive well after sunset without their lights on. :ugh:
Auto A/C (Are you kidding me, that actually exists? How lazy are people getting anyway! Sheesh! :rolleyes: )
I've never driven a car with that, sounds interesting. I'd like to set a temp and just have it kept rather than playing with the controls because it's too hot, :hothead: or too cold. :frosty:
Auto Wipers...See previous comment.
I've heard from a friend that they are great. Again, never tried it.
Remote Starter...See previous comment.
I will most definately be getting one installed this year. I didn't last year then there was an awesome sale on, and I was kicking myself the rest of the the bitterly cold winter.
Stability Control (I don't even know what that is, except that I know have lived without it for 20+ years, I am sure I will live without it for the next 20+ years, same with ABS, I will probably get flamed for that, but hey, I have lived without that too, never been in a position where I have EVER needed it)
I'm not a fan of Stability control, but most people are, and it will be required on each and every SUV sold in the US by 2012. Might as well stay ahead of the curve. But ABS did save my arse once, when I was a new driver in my mom's Pontiac Trans Sport.
I don't even need Power Locks, Power Doors, Power Windows, RKE, or anything of that ilk, but I did get On-Star, but unfortunately at the time, (and it probably is still true), one couldn't get On-Star (piece of mind, hands-free cell phone) or Advanced Audio (hey, I need my tunes! :)) without getting the "Power Package"
I've now had power locks, and will not live without on a daily driver, so help me god. And OnStar is standard on every new GM vehicle since 2006.
DesertPuma,
I'm still curious to hear your opinion on when a car company should make the decision on whether or not to update a vehicle. If the VUE came out in 2001, when should they decide whether or not it needs to be redesigned?
DesertPuma,
I'm still curious to hear your opinion on when a car company should make the decision on whether or not to update a vehicle. If the VUE came out in 2001, when should they decide whether or not it needs to be redesigned?
When sales start to falter or they come up with genuine improvements?
The current rationale (we need to save a ton of money and consolidate manufacturing because our management has run the company into the ground) is not very confidence inspiring.
Hell, I could have successfully run the company into the ground for 1/4 of what Wagoner was getting paid. :)
Cheers,
When sales start to falter or they come up with genuine improvements?
The current rationale (we need to save a ton of money and consolidate manufacturing because our management has run the company into the ground) is not very confidence inspiring.
Hell, I could have successfully run the company into the ground for 1/4 of what Wagoner was getting paid. :)
Cheers,
With that attitude you will. If you wait until the sales slip, you;ve los the market. ask the Taurus. The last one rolls off the assembly line Friday.
When sales start to falter or they come up with genuine improvements?
The current rationale (we need to save a ton of money and consolidate manufacturing because our management has run the company into the ground) is not very confidence inspiring.
Hell, I could have successfully run the company into the ground for 1/4 of what Wagoner was getting paid. :)
Cheers,
When sales falter?
It takes roughly 4 years for a new vehicle to come out from when the first concept is drawn to when a vehicle rolls off the assembly line. Suppose sales start to falter after 5 years. Then what? You wait another 4 years with declining sales before that car is replaced? If sales are falling after 5 years, where do you think they would be after 9 years?
Not to mention that kills any semblence of a plan for the model that's in production. Should we change the current vehicle so we can do XXX or YYY? Well, we don't know when to plan for a new one, so we can't do any sort of cost/benefit analysis for making the change. Imagine trying to plan into the future, never knowing if someone tomorrow is going to come along and squash your plans because it's finally time to start working on the new version.
Genuine improvements?
Who's to say that the next gen vehicle isn't full of genuine improvements. I'll bet a paycheck that it'll have stability control. That seems like a genuine improvement to me. And it's also one that requires substantial changes in the vehicle in order to implement them.
The current rationale of planning to keep a vehicle fresh in order to keep up with (or ahead of) the competition with a vehicle that's updated with the latest features is not very confidence inspiring, yet there's confidence in the alternate plan of doing nothing until sales are in the toilet?
montrealvue
10-23-2006, 11:08 PM
I don't give a s*** about any of it, just make it more reliable.........lol The thing that has always bugged me about GM's is that even late in the lifecycle, some of the same issues exist. If other manufacturers (Toyota for one) can take issues seriously and correct them in the first year, why can't GM???? I love some of the vehicles but I always seem to get to know service dept. intimately :ugh: QUALITY DAMMIT, QUALITY!!!!!
mellissam
10-24-2006, 02:32 AM
:) I don't give a s*** about any of it, just make it more reliable.........lol The thing that has always bugged me about GM's is that even late in the lifecycle, some of the same issues exist. If other manufacturers (Toyota for one) can take issues seriously and correct them in the first year, why can't GM???? I love some of the vehicles but I always seem to get to know service dept. intimately :ugh: QUALITY DAMMIT, QUALITY!!!!!
I couldn't agree more....although we have gotten a little off-topic, I never want to see my service department...ever. If those bozos realized the VTI was crap, they could have pulled it before it got labelled a 'problem car'.....People only remember 'when I was kid'.....
IF they had realized 'no problems' = 'stellar reputation' = 'increased sales' we wouldn't be seeing an Opel designed VUE......it'd be homegrown.
Personally (knock on wood), I just got lucky, because I didn't really know what car research was all about until it was too late. Thankfully, I picked a decent car late into it's design life...let me say that again, it took 5 years for GM to get it half-as## right!! Geesh, no wonder they are puffing wind. Instead of fixing things, they could have spent time making better doodads for the VUE.......
Well, I think they could do better with the current platform, but I'll hold my breath and wait to see the new poly-less VUE.....BTW- when is it supposed to roll off the line?
The only time I plan to visit the GM service department is to change the tranny oil and look things over just before the 5year mark...although the tranny probably won't need the oil change, I like new oil. :)
montrealvue
10-24-2006, 10:26 AM
:)
Well, I think they could do better with the current platform, but I'll hold my breath and wait to see the new poly-less VUE.....BTW- when is it supposed to roll off the line?
:)
I hear it is scheduled for next summer (July) but I am sure there are more people on this board that have a more precise date. I lament the death of polymer as much as anyone but I guess times have changed. The "masses" want everything and don't want to pay for it. GM is acting accordingly by cutting cost which in turn cutting dependability. I know they definitely aren't adding cost to exterior design, thats for damn sure.....lol
I just hope the next Vue a) doesn't have tons of reliability issues like the last model did in its first years and b) is an overall design improvement (well, mechanically anyway). Looks aside (a few people on the board experience nausea when looking at it) I can only hope its fun to drive and finds its place in the market.
I don't have much choice, if I want to have a Saturn and have the flexibility for a family of 4 this is they only vehicle that makes sense.
DesertPuma
10-24-2006, 01:07 PM
Auto Headlights :rolleyes:
VUEs have tha anyway. I don't know why all cars don't, with all the idiots (especially in Chryslers/Dodges) that drive well after sunset without their lights on. :ugh:
They do? That's news to me. Now mine does have DRL, not quite the same thing.
BTW good luck with the maintenance on all those doo-dads.
fatabbot
10-24-2006, 01:15 PM
They do? That's news to me. Now mine does have DRL, not quite the same thing.
The newer ones do. Was news to me as well, until a recent thread talking about the difference in sensitivity between an 04 and 06's headlight sensor.
They do? That's news to me. Now mine does have DRL, not quite the same thing.
BTW good luck with the maintenance on all those doo-dads.
Yes, my mom's does. Maintenece is the only issue, and with most items, a relatively minor one. That's what warranties are for, and it also helps when some of my best friends work at dealerships, and get parts very cheap in case the warranty doesn't cover it, or runs out. ;) I'd rather have them and use them, and fix them if need be, than not have them.
Dorian
10-25-2006, 12:52 PM
I was looking at the photographs of the rumored '08 Vue before I bought my '07. It was that new body design that had me considering an SUV to begin with. I was ready to wait a year to buy a new vehicle but the '07 Vue sorta grew on me. I decided to pull the trigger rather than wait a year. If you always wait for the next great thing in vehicles you'll end up walking an awful lot. The evolution of vehicles is almost keeping pace with the Hi-Tech sector.
Today's Vue is great. Tomorrow's Vue will be a little better. The one after that (if they keep calling it a Vue) will probably be even better. Aesthetics are subjective and what a lot of folks say "looks like poop" other folks say "looks hot!" The technological advancement is pretty much a given. But there are as many people intimidated by technology ("just more junk to break") as there are interested in technology.
The fear of change would have kept airbags, ABS, MP3 Audio, and traction control systems out of todays vehicles. I like change, and will give the '08 a few weeks of life to prove itself out before I make a judgment on it. No one really knows what its all about right now except for those that aren't allowed to talk.
DesertPuma
10-25-2006, 08:43 PM
Where the heck did you see the Outlook will start at $32k? I'm sure you also missed the other facts and rumors from the same time and are just trying to make a steel-bodied Saturn look bad. The Outlook WILL NOT start at $32k.
Maybe it can still be considered rumor, but here goes:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87681
It's higher than you probably even imagined, it's not 32K, but it's darn close. A fully loaded Outlook is going to be over 40K (based on this posting).
At any rate, it's more than I am willing to pay. I will bet the "new VUE" will start at 19K-22K (just a guess on my part, I really don't have any insight, but it will be higher than the current VUE runs for.)
TPFilm
10-28-2006, 10:30 AM
Maybe it can still be considered rumor, but here goes:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87681
It's higher than you probably even imagined, it's not 32K, but it's darn close. A fully loaded Outlook is going to be over 40K (based on this posting).
At any rate, it's more than I am willing to pay. I will bet the "new VUE" will start at 19K-22K (just a guess on my part, I really don't have any insight, but it will be higher than the current VUE runs for.)
Saturn Announces Prices For All New 2007 Outlook
MSRP for new eight-passenger crossover vehicle starts at $27,990
Detroit -- Engineered to provide the ideal balance of style, size and capability, the 2007 Saturn Outlook crossover also features a long list of standard equipment and extremely attractive price.
Saturn announced today the manufacturer's suggested retail price (MSRP) for the front-wheel drive Outlook XE is $27,990. All-wheel drive XE model starts at $29,990.
Fuel economy numbers for the Outlook were also announced, with front-wheel-drive models rated at 18 mpg city/26 mpg highway by the EPA, and all-wheel-drive models rated at 17 mpg city/24 mpg highway.
"The Outlook crossover combines great design and utility with better fuel economy than any eight-passenger SUV," said Saturn General Manager Jill Lajdziak. "It's part of our continuing strategy of combining great vehicles and outstanding value with Saturn's highly regarded customer care."
Outlook features a body-frame integral design that enables lower step-in heights and generous interior space. Outlook offers three rows of seating, with the third row capable of comfortably seating three adults - and with more usable storage space behind the third-row seat than many of its competitors. Access to the third-row seat is made easier with an articulated, industry-first Smart Slide® second-row seat feature.
StabiliTrak is standard on all Outlook models, as are six air bags: two dual-stage frontal air bags for the driver and front passenger, two seat-mounted side-impact air bags in the first row and two head curtain side-impact air bags that cover all three seating rows. Complementing the air bags is GM's rollover sensing system, which can activate the side-impact air bags if sensors determine a rollover is imminent. In the event of a rollover, the air bags stay inflated longer to provide increased occupant containment. Outlook also comes standard with OnStar.
The Outlook XE's 3.6L V-6 VVT produces 270 horsepower (201 kw) and 248 lb.-ft. of torque (336 Nm). The uplevel Outlook XR model, with dual exhaust, provides an estimated 275 horsepower (205 kW) and 251 lb.-ft. of torque (340 Nm). All Outlook models feature a 6-speed automatic transmission.
The uplevel Outlook XR will carry an MSRP of $30,290 for front-wheel drive and $32,290 for all-wheel drive models.
Rounding out the appeal of the Outlook is a wide range of attractive optional equipment, including ultrasonic rear parking assist, power lift gate, remote vehicle start, heated windshield fluid, DVD entertainment system and DVD navigation system.
The Outlook will be built at GM's Lansing/Delta Township (Mich.) assembly facility.
TPFilm
10-28-2006, 10:40 AM
Wanted to post the Outlook pricing for clarity.
The VUE is a great design. I don't thinnk it should be redesigned into what it is going to be either. But...
Maybe GM will fix it. After all, Jeep killed the Cherokee and then brought out the Comander - an oversized Cherokee. The 2008 Liberty will look like a slightly smaller Cherokee (I mean Comander!)
An earlier post said that Suzuki had nothing to do with the Theta platform. That person needs to do a google search and read all of the articles about the new XL7 as well as the Equinoz and the Torrent. It has been acknowledged in every car magazine (and truck magazines, too) that Suzuki helped. Do you really think that Saturn (read GM) could come up with something as good as Theta on their own? Why do you think all of those Geos were rebadged Suzukis or Toyotas? If they could have, do you really think they would have let Saturn have it first? Saturn was the test mule. If Suzuki had nothing to do with Theta why would GM allow a competitor (GM sold its stake in Suzuki) to use the platform and then build it in the same factory alongside the 'Nox & the 'Rent?
By the way, if you want an '08 VUE, just buy the Suzuki, take the Suzuki badges off, put on the VUE badges and you have a VUE that, if you ordered it so, will seat 7 people have another non-GM V6 and have a 7 year warranty!:) :) :) :D :usa:
cdp326
10-29-2006, 04:22 PM
Me personally... I don't need/want upscale...all I EVER look for in a car is practicality...period. The "new Saturn" does not provide that, the "old Saturn" fit that to a 'T', absolutely. Utilitarian, (good word) that's all I ever ask for in a car, anything else is overkill.
I do not want/need the following (as wolfman deftly labeled them as "doodads", I love that word )
Leather (total waste of money, not to mention it hurts to sit down on Leather or Vinyl when it is 113 degrees outside, which is about 1/3 of the year here in Phx, AZ)
Advantage to leather: easier to clean/doesn't stain like cloth. Some people take the hot leather if they have an easier to clean fabric, especially if they have children.
Heated/Cooled Seats (I can somewhat understand if you live in the "Snow Belt", I don't, again, waste of money)
Cooled seats I'd think you'd understand given your location. Especially since they usually require leather, negating your argument. :D These things are comfort features--people are willing to pay to be comfortable.
Auto Seats
You'd think they're useless, but making those little adjustments can make-or-break seat comfort. Ever wish for an adjustment position just between two of them, in seat track position or recliner? Plus, power seats often include adjustments for angle of the seat. I've seen instances where people thought that a power passenger seat wouldn't be useful, only to take a longer drive and found that making those little adjustments during the trip helped prevent them from getting real fatigued.
This and other power adjustments, like steering column, headrests, and shoulder belt height, are also useful because often you have to move to manually adjust, then sit back straight to see if it's OK, then if not go back and adjust again. It's frustrating and tiring.
Auto Headlights
I tend to agree on this one, mainly because people become use to them and then forget about their headlights in dawn/dusk/rain situations (though wiper-activated headlights helps the latter).
Auto A/C (Are you kidding me, that actually exists? How lazy are people getting anyway! Sheesh! )
It makes the little adjustments that are useful to people. Plus, it's a gadget and some people like gadgets.
Auto Wipers...See previous comment.
See my previous comment too...they can make the small adjustments that doesn't frustrate you as you drive in the rain. I always find it irritating when I can't quite get what I want with the wiper speed, in my S or the VUE.
Remote Starter...See previous comment.
So you're telling me you don't mind getting into your hot VUE in the summer every day and don't mind the heat inside the car, and driving with the car hot for the first few minutes as the A/C labors to cool all that space down? I don't believe it.
Stability Control (I don't even know what that is, except that I know have lived without it for 20+ years, I am sure I will live without it for the next 20+ years, same with ABS, I will probably get flamed for that, but hey, I have lived without that too, never been in a position where I have EVER needed it)
Oh, please, spare us the "Learn how to drive!" BS. People lived without seatbelts too until they were required equipment and required use, but does that mean you'd skip those too? Stability control and ABS are not doodads, they are safety features that take over where the driver can't handle. If wolfman thought ABS was just a doodad, he doubt he would have gotten it on his VUE. Stability control is an extension of the ABS system and is considered one of the most significant safety features in the past few years. It has shown to help save lives. You won't be in control in every emergency situation.
I don't even need Power Locks, Power Doors, Power Windows, RKE, or anything of that ilk, but I did get On-Star, but unfortunately at the time, (and it probably is still true), one couldn't get On-Star (piece of mind, hands-free cell phone) or Advanced Audio (hey, I need my tunes! ) without getting the "Power Package"
I figured I could deal without remote keyless entry too when I got my car, but I wish I had it every day. It makes it easier and quicker for you and passengers to get in the car--a convenience feature, yes. By power doors, I assume you mean power sliding doors and liftgates? Yeah, people don't really need them, but they are an excellent convenience feature and are helpful if your hands are full or if you're trying to get a lot of people in. In my experience anybody that rides in a minivan needs to be taught how to work the interior door handles...something that power doors can help save.
Maybe it can still be considered rumor, but here goes:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87681
It's higher than you probably even imagined, it's not 32K, but it's darn close. A fully loaded Outlook is going to be over 40K (based on this posting).
At any rate, it's more than I am willing to pay. I will bet the "new VUE" will start at 19K-22K (just a guess on my part, I really don't have any insight, but it will be higher than the current VUE runs for.)
Um, no, $28k is a good four thousand dollars less than $32k. Which I actually think is high in itself, but definitely not $32k that everyone else knew it would NOT start at. Yes, a fully loaded Outlook will be $40k, but why does that matter to you when you want such basic features? You'd probably be perfectly satisfied with a base XE.
Wanted to post the Outlook pricing for clarity.
The VUE is a great design. I don't thinnk it should be redesigned into what it is going to be either. But...
Maybe GM will fix it. After all, Jeep killed the Cherokee and then brought out the Comander - an oversized Cherokee. The 2008 Liberty will look like a slightly smaller Cherokee (I mean Comander!)
The Commander isn't a Cherokee replacement; the Liberty was (and the Liberty is actually still called Cherokee in some markets like Europe). The Commander was a way for Jeep to get a 3-row SUV (it's a slightly larger Grand Cherokee), and the Cherokee-inspired styling was simply a way to pay homage and try to keep some old Cherokee buyers.
An earlier post said that Suzuki had nothing to do with the Theta platform. That person needs to do a google search and read all of the articles about the new XL7 as well as the Equinoz and the Torrent. It has been acknowledged in every car magazine (and truck magazines, too) that Suzuki helped. Do you really think that Saturn (read GM) could come up with something as good as Theta on their own? Why do you think all of those Geos were rebadged Suzukis or Toyotas? If they could have, do you really think they would have let Saturn have it first? Saturn was the test mule. If Suzuki had nothing to do with Theta why would GM allow a competitor (GM sold its stake in Suzuki) to use the platform and then build it in the same factory alongside the 'Nox & the 'Rent?
By the way, if you want an '08 VUE, just buy the Suzuki, take the Suzuki badges off, put on the VUE badges and you have a VUE that, if you ordered it so, will seat 7 people have another non-GM V6 and have a 7 year warranty!:) :) :) :D :usa:
The XL7 uses the GM High Feature 3.6L V6. It's actually pretty heavy on the GM parts bin, using things like the steering wheel and Black Tie radio from GM.
BadGL
10-29-2006, 05:04 PM
Actually the whole range pretty much is being 'redesigned'. By that what is being done is that GM is essentially replacing the independent Saturn with the European GM brand, Opel (sold as Vauxhall in the UK).
The Aura is the Opel Vectra
The new Ion is the Opel Astra
The new VUE is the Opel Frontera
The Sky is based on the Vauxhall/Opel Lightning
And the rest will fall in line in due course I expect
There won't be the plastic panels going forward - Saturn will essentially be Opel in the USA (not a bad thing as Opel cars are really prety decent)
BadGL
10-29-2006, 05:06 PM
Oh, to complicate things, the new VUE, the Opel Frontera/Antara isn't made by Opel - it's actually manufactured by Daewoo in Korea. No idea where everything else will be made but I'm not certain that Springhill will be around much longer.
cdp326
10-29-2006, 05:13 PM
Oh, to complicate things, the new VUE, the Opel Frontera/Antara isn't made by Opel - it's actually manufactured by Daewoo in Korea. No idea where everything else will be made but I'm not certain that Springhill will be around much longer.
There's no telling where the VUE will be made yet.
Why does the VUE's production dictate the future of Spring Hill? They build more than just IONs and VUEs there--they build Ecotec I4 engines as well, and we know there will be more cars produced at Spring Hill in the future--we just don't know what yet.
BadGL
10-29-2006, 05:17 PM
I'd say the writing is on the wall personally. I can't see how SH wouldn't be impacted seriously by Saturn essentially becoming mostly an import line? Sure they may use the plan for something but I wouldn't put money on it, especially given this is where the weakest union contracts in the GM empire exist. As you say, to be decided.
cdp326
10-29-2006, 06:22 PM
I'd say the writing is on the wall personally. I can't see how SH wouldn't be impacted seriously by Saturn essentially becoming mostly an import line? Sure they may use the plan for something but I wouldn't put money on it, especially given this is where the weakest union contracts in the GM empire exist. As you say, to be decided.
Would you spend all that money to open a new, fairly modern plant, only to close it 20 years later, even though it's only one of a couple places to produce vital things like the Ecotec engines?
We know there'll be something moving in after the ION is dropped, we're just not sure what.
BadGL
10-29-2006, 07:54 PM
Well, you'd thonk but just look at all the other plant closuresgoing on. I'm sure they're not full full of obsolete equipment either. The other plants have very strong union agreements that are costly to get out of (google: GM plant closures) - Saturn has had a give/take agreement from day one and this was based on trust and working together which worked very well n the early days. GM can close SH far more cheaply than practically any other plant, that's why I reckon they're vulnerable.
Don't get me wrong - I hope they stay open and building cars. I've been a loyal Saturn owner to long to wish bad things upon them
An earlier post said that Suzuki had nothing to do with the Theta platform. That person needs to do a google search and read all of the articles about the new XL7 as well as the Equinoz and the Torrent. It has been acknowledged in every car magazine (and truck magazines, too) that Suzuki helped. Do you really think that Saturn (read GM) could come up with something as good as Theta on their own? Why do you think all of those Geos were rebadged Suzukis or Toyotas? If they could have, do you really think they would have let Saturn have it first? Saturn was the test mule. If Suzuki had nothing to do with Theta why would GM allow a competitor (GM sold its stake in Suzuki) to use the platform and then build it in the same factory alongside the 'Nox & the 'Rent?
FACTS:
GM still owns 3% of Suzuki with an option to re-purchase the share they sold
GM and Suzuki continue to jointly own & run CAMI
Suzuki had no involvement in Theta until the XL7
Suzuki designed & engineered the past CAMI products. GM designed and engineered the current CAMI products. The new XL7 was styled by Suzuki.
BadGL
10-29-2006, 10:08 PM
And Daewoo, who will supply the new Opel/Saturn VUE, is jointly owned by GM and Suzuki...
As an aside, take a look at the UK Chevrolet site
http://www.chevrolet.co.uk/
Chevy is GM's small car division in the UK. Every one of the cars is made by Daewoo.
DesertPuma
10-30-2006, 01:13 PM
Advantage to leather: easier to clean/doesn't stain like cloth. Some people take the hot leather if they have an easier to clean fabric, especially if they have children.
That is not an important consideration for me. (And my child is now a teen...God help me :rolleyes: ) :)
So you're telling me you don't mind getting into your hot VUE in the summer every day and don't mind the heat inside the car, and driving with the car hot for the first few minutes as the A/C labors to cool all that space down? I don't believe it.
Believe it :), I choose to live in AZ, and learn to live with it's consequences.
I'd say the writing is on the wall personally. I can't see how SH wouldn't be impacted seriously by Saturn essentially becoming mostly an import line? Sure they may use the plan for something but I wouldn't put money on it, especially given this is where the weakest union contracts in the GM empire exist. As you say, to be decided.
Several years ago, Spring Hill went away from the unique Saturn-only contract in favor of the boilerplate UAW-GM contract. Things should be no different there from that respect as anywhere else.
cdp326
10-30-2006, 01:44 PM
Well, you'd thonk but just look at all the other plant closuresgoing on. I'm sure they're not full full of obsolete equipment either. The other plants have very strong union agreements that are costly to get out of (google: GM plant closures) - Saturn has had a give/take agreement from day one and this was based on trust and working together which worked very well n the early days. GM can close SH far more cheaply than practically any other plant, that's why I reckon they're vulnerable.
Don't get me wrong - I hope they stay open and building cars. I've been a loyal Saturn owner to long to wish bad things upon them
Personally, I think there's too much value in the SH plant vs. other plants for it to close. Plus, there's only one other US plant IIRC producting Ecotec engines (Tonawanda, NY IIRC)--with so many cars using these engines, this is very important.
(And BTW...the Aura currently shares actually very little with the Opel Vectra.)
That is not an important consideration for me. (And my child is now a teen...God help me :rolleyes: ) :)
For you, no, for others yes.
Believe it :), I choose to live in AZ, and learn to live with it's consequences.
Just because you live with it doesn't mean you like it. Are you saying that you never try to find a solution to something you may not like? Remote start is a solution to this particular consequence.
DesertPuma
10-30-2006, 01:57 PM
Just because you live with it doesn't mean you like it. Are you saying that you never try to find a solution to something you may not like?
What makes you think I don't like it :), I have lived here all my life, there is no way I could ever live in the snowbelt.
Remote start is a solution to this particular consequence.
...as well as a waste of money (to purchase and install) and gasoline (while everything warms up and cools off, so to speak).
Nope sorry, still find it to be a useless gadget.
jdmessner
10-30-2006, 03:52 PM
So, if I read between the lines, Saturn is going to become GM/Opel West? With models made in Korea. That gives me even LESS confidence in the direction that GM is going..
That means my Ohio built Accord is going to be more of an American made car than any Saturn will be. Great job GM...
cdp326
10-30-2006, 07:31 PM
What makes you think I don't like it :), I have lived here all my life, there is no way I could ever live in the snowbelt.
I'm not referring to the heat in general; I'm referring to the heat in a car after it's been sitting in the sun.
...as well as a waste of money (to purchase and install) and gasoline (while everything warms up and cools off, so to speak).
Nope sorry, still find it to be a useless gadget.
You'd just be doing the same thing w/ gas by sitting inside the hot car sweating with the air on high. The remote start gives the car a head start.
Plus, you're not really supposed to immediately drive off after putting the car in gear, which many people do but you wouldn't with the remote starter. There are also people with health issues that would benefit from not suffering in the heat.
Is spending money to be more comfortable a waste to you? If it is fine, but many people would rather spend a bit to be comfortable; don't smirk at them as they get in and drive off in their cool cars while you sweat with that bit of money you saved. :)
(Oh, and BTW, wolfman would disagree on the remote start as a doodad too, as he's installed that in his VUE. :yes: )
So, if I read between the lines, Saturn is going to become GM/Opel West? With models made in Korea. That gives me even LESS confidence in the direction that GM is going..
What model is going to be made in Korea? Nothing says anything will be yet, including the VUE. It's more likely to be built in Mexico probably than it is Korea--and we don't know where it's going to be built yet in the first place. Once again, you don't back yourself up with facts.
That means my Ohio built Accord is going to be more of an American made car than any Saturn will be. Great job GM...
Daewoo is still owned by GM, an American company, while your Honda is still built by a foreign company.
cdp326
10-30-2006, 07:38 PM
And Daewoo, who will supply the new Opel/Saturn VUE, is jointly owned by GM and Suzuki...
As an aside, take a look at the UK Chevrolet site
http://www.chevrolet.co.uk/
Chevy is GM's small car division in the UK. Every one of the cars is made by Daewoo.
Do you actually know anything of Chevy, Daewoo, and GM's history in Europe?
The reason every one of the cars is made by Daewoo is because they ARE (and were) Daewoos, and sold with Daewoo badges before. A few years ago GM decided to enter the Chevy brand name into Europe with the existing Daewoo models. There will be some US Chevy models going on sale (I've heard the HHR will be), but for now they are only the older Daewoos with the Bowtie Badge.
This should explain it better: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet#Europe
So you see, it's not that Chevy is exactly made-by-Daewoo cars in Europe; it's more that they're the same car with a new make. They were there before the Chevy badge was.
fatabbot
10-30-2006, 07:44 PM
Ok, let's not keep trying to inject logic into this discussion. It obviously has no place. :dizzy:
I mean, why would GM actually want to start making money? Why would the largest carmaker in the world actually try a different approach when its back is against the wall? Silly GM.....
Cause, come on, the VUE as it stands now can obviously keep Saturn and GM in the running for years to come. :rolleyes:
Why should they try to attract new customers? I mean, obviously, consumers that have been historically loyal to GM are enough to keep them going in the future. :rolleyes:
mellissam
10-30-2006, 08:19 PM
Just to keep it straight, I back this Up with nothing..nada.
Saturn folks are not your typical GM folks...they bought Saturn because they didn't want to stomach buying an import (although that is kind of murky nowadays) or they are cash strapped, but refuse to buy GM due to its reliability history, plus Saturn has that homey feel-good fair trade car company.... Now, they are redisgning the VUE to look like the imports, and domestics (actually they are converging....me thinks, they have been staring at each other's blueprints). This will not make them the unique brand they are, and all those little Sattie's will run off and scatter like a good Northeaster....Geting rid of the poly is a big mistake....especially since they haven't replaced it with any other 'wow' factor...jmho
Maybe they are trying to look like a europa SUV...thats it! Can't beat them, join them. So, we are going to get a euro SUV, that hopefully, will be bullet proof. I was hanging in Germany over the summer, and thier cars look like the redesigned VUE (rounded look). I gues being Opel and all, it figures....
It better be loaded with doodads that european cars are noted for....that is all I have to say for now....:)
fatabbot
10-30-2006, 08:33 PM
Sorry, I can't believe that anyone except the first generation of Saturn buyers separated Saturn from GM in their mind before the purchase. If people still can't see Saturn as a part of GM, they are un/underinformed consumers, which aren't the best money makers (long-term) anyways.
If only looking to keep consumers loyal to Saturn or other GM brands was enough to steer the ship wide of the iceberg, they wouldn't be in the trouble they are in now.
jdmessner
10-30-2006, 08:45 PM
Cpd,
The Sky/Solstice/Vuxhall lightning/Daewoo G2X is the same car, all based on the Kappa platform.
It is produced in both Delaware (for the US and European market) and GMDAT (for the Asian market).
Starting next year, every Saturn produced and sold in the US will be based on an import design from either the Daewoo corp or the Opel corp (both of which are GM subsidiaries). For now, some will be built in the US, but as GM continues it's belt tightening, you will begin to see direct imports from foreign factories for the entire line.
You asked for facts. Thats a fact.
Saturn, as we know it is dead. It is soon to be GM's next GEO brand. (Remember the Geo experiment from 1986-1992? The Storm? The Spectrum? The Tracker? Remember what a disaster that was? Rebadged imported cars and trucks sold under an 'Independent' name plate?)
The innovation is gone. GM is hemmoraging cash every day. Of course they're going to cut costs. But it's the consumer that pays the ultimate price.
My Accord may be foreign owned but the employees are americans, with american assembly jobs. Honda's making money and opening new assembly plants in the US. GM is hemmoraging cash. They're closing plants and laying off American workers. I could care less who the owner is, as long as my neighbor still has a job (since my industry is service oriented, I depend on those same manufacturing jobs that GM, Ford and Chrysler are shipping over seas!)
jdmessner
10-30-2006, 08:53 PM
Oh, you wanted proof?
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109705
" Winstorm from GM-Daewoo: The new SUV will be built exclusively in South Korea but will go on sale around the world under a plethora of GM badges: Chevrolet, Opel, Vauxhall, Saturn , and of course Daewoo."
That's right, sports fans. The OUTLOOK will be a Korean built Saturn.
Ain't that just a gas????
MJD1001
10-30-2006, 09:05 PM
Oh, you wanted proof?
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109705
" Winstorm from GM-Daewoo: The new SUV will be built exclusively in South Korea but will go on sale around the world under a plethora of GM badges: Chevrolet, Opel, Vauxhall, Saturn , and of course Daewoo."
That's right, sports fans. The OUTLOOK will be a Korean built Saturn.
Ain't that just a gas????
Really? I think you are mistaken and it will be built right here in the USA... take a look at this....
LANSING -- Working desperately to win back customers, make money and improve its public image, General Motors Corp. showcased a new assembly plant on the outskirts of Lansing on Thursday that could become an impressive focal point in the company's ambitious turnaround plan.
The Lansing Delta Township Plant, which will begin making the Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia and Buick Enclave crossover vehicles later this year, is expected to be one of the most efficient and technologically advanced auto plants in the world.
full article here: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060804/BUSINESS01/608040353
If you do a search for the words "outlook" and "delta lansing", you will come up with dozens and dozens of other sources..major newspapers, news services, even some of GM's own publications, that say it will be built in Lansing.
That's right, sports fans. The OUTLOOK will be a Korean built Saturn.
Ain't that just a gas????
The Outlook is being built in Delta Township Assembly plant near Lansing, Michigan. Where in the hell did you get it will be built exclusively in South Korea? The vehicle mentioned in the article is the Windstrom which has as much in common with the Outlook, as an S-series. The Chevy Capitva which is Euro market only at this point will be the platform mate, and any other varients are pure speculation. Currently GM does not plan to bring it to the US, but there are some rumors that it would do well in the Canadian market. The mention of of Saturn in the article, is totally unfounded speculation.
jdmessner
10-30-2006, 09:36 PM
Read the article again. The new plant is the assembly plant. It is where the component parts will be assembled into the completed product.
The country of origin for the components will be the Democratic Republic of South Korea.
This is GM's only option to avoid import tariffs. If they import the completed vehicle, it will cost them more. If they assemble it in Detroit, then they avoid the importation costs.
Its also a marketing coup for them since they make the average consumer believe that they're actually buying an American made car.
This is the same GM that's importing Chinese built engines for the Equinox and the Torrent. It's no suprise that they do this as well.
Its all about globalization. They can employ a skilled work force for pennies on the dollar to actually make the components then accept the laud and adulation as they pay some unemployed factory worker in Detroit $17.00/hr to put it together. Its all about the money. Build it cheap, sell it high.
GM's global strategy sucks.
Charlie
10-30-2006, 09:37 PM
The OUTLOOK will be a Korean built Saturn.
Like the others said, the Outlook will be built in Michigan. As far as we can tell, the next-gen VUE will not be built in Korea, but in a plant in North America. We should know which one next month. Let's not start spreading false rumors.
Thanks!
Charlie
Charlie
10-30-2006, 09:43 PM
GM's global strategy sucks.
I'm by no means a fan of moving American jobs overseas, but its unfair to single out GM here. Every manufacturer, whether in the automotive, furniture, or even clothing industry, has moved some or all of their manufacturing overseas.
Charlie
jdmessner
10-30-2006, 09:44 PM
When you see the '07 Outlooks and '08 Saturns hit the show room floor, pay close attention to the bottom of the sticker.
The country of origin for the Engine and transmission will say "Korea" It will also say "Assembled in america of 95% foreign and 5% domestic parts".
Don't say I didn't warn you..... It's the biggest reason I canceled my order on the '07 Sky. If I wanted an Opel, I'll go buy an Opel.
Its all about globalization. They can employ a skilled work force for pennies on the dollar to actually make the components then accept the laud and adulation as they pay some unemployed factory worker in Detroit $17.00/hr to put it together. Its all about the money. Build it cheap, sell it high.
GM's global strategy sucks.
You are exactly right, and completely wrong all at the same time. It is all globalization. How do you think Honda, and Toyota can afford to build cars in North America? They do the same. GM is finally learning, and following suit. This is what will save them, since folks like you keep scooping up the Japanese designed, and engineered Accords, and such. Why should the US work force be doing maual labour? That is what is wrong with the whole situation in the first place. Give the skilled jobs to the people in this country, and let the third world worry about doing the menial labour. GMs global strategy will same them, whether is pisses you off or not. And if you think anybody at a GM plant in North America makes $17.00/hr you are high. The guy cleaning the toilets makes much more than that, with full dental, and benefits. And that is exactly why GM and Ford are in the mess they are in.
Woah there jdmessner. You're totally off base.
Outlook. Sister to the GMC Acadia and the upcoming Buick Enclave. Built just outside Lansing, MI in a brand-spanking new assembly plant. That is the only place those will be built. NOT Korea. Designed, engineered, and built in the USA.
Sky. Twin to the Opel GT branded version of the car. Built in Wilmington Delaware. Designed, engineered, and built in the USA.
Aura. Built on GM's "Epsilon" platform which is also the basis for the Pontiac G6, Chevy Malibu, and Saab 9-3 (in the US). The Aura is built alongside the Malibu in Fairfax, Kansas. Designed, engineered, and built in the USA. This is a global platform and has versions built in the US and Europe (Germany and Sweeden).
Current VUE. Built in Spring Hill. This is the original Theta platform vehicle. Designed, engineered, and built in the USA.
Next VUE. Built in ??? (speculation says Mexico, not Korea). Engineered in large part in Korea, but since it's a Theta, the engineering surrounds putting together a vehicle on a current platform, and not engineering an entire vehicle from scratch. So give credit to th US and Canada as well for engineering.
Opel Antara, Chevy Captiva. Same as above, but built in Korea for now. Versions sold in Europe and Australia in addition to Asia. I read an article last week about the sales increases of Chevys in Europe. It mentioned how they plan to increase significantly the number of Chevys assembled in Europe.
Going forward: Saturn = Opel. Opel = Saturn. GM will engineer vehicles around the world and they'll decide based on what makes most sense, where to build them. But Saturn will share vehicles with Opel. Not necessarily exclusively or all-inclusively. But they will be the same here and there. Does that mean they'll all be built here, there, or somewhere else? Nope. If they're building 100k VUE's or whatever, it probably makes sense to build them here and not ship them by boat. Same goes for building them overseas. When you figure that most Holdens are also common with Opels or some other product, and that volumes aren't huge in either europe or Australia, it can make sense to build them somewhere mutually satisfactory. For now, GM-Daweoo has capacity and they've been building a ton of vehicles.
Charlie
10-30-2006, 10:21 PM
When you see the '07 Outlooks and '08 Saturns hit the show room floor, pay close attention to the bottom of the sticker.
The country of origin for the Engine and transmission will say "Korea" It will also say "Assembled in america of 95% foreign and 5% domestic parts".
Don't say I didn't warn you.....
What? Please stop spreading these bad rumors. The both the Outlook's engine (http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?SESSIONID=&aId=20877) and 6-speed transmission (http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/wip/1205wip04.html) will be built in Michigan... not Korea! :eek:
In addition, while Daewoo was involved with the design of the NG VUE, its powertrain is supposed to be sourced from North American plants as well. I could be wrong (nothing has been officially be announced), but none of the information/rumors on the new VUE I've collected gels with what you're saying...
Again, please don't spread false information that's easily verifiable from published news sources.
Thank you!
Charlie
What? Please stop spreading these bad rumors. The both the Outlook's engine (http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?SESSIONID=&aId=20877) and 6-speed transmission (http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/wip/1205wip04.html) will be built in Michigan... not Korea! :eek:Along with the unions squeezing the Big 3 dry, erroneous public perception is another huge stumbling block for GM to overcome. All of jdmessner's misnomers in posts in this thread are proof of that. If he were the only one that believed those things as fact it would not be a big deal. One guy no biggie. Unfortunately a disturbingly large number of the public at large think the same things. :(
cdp326
10-31-2006, 05:01 PM
Cpd,
The Sky/Solstice/Vuxhall lightning/Daewoo G2X is the same car, all based on the Kappa platform.
It is produced in both Delaware (for the US and European market) and GMDAT (for the Asian market).
Yes, I'm well aware.
Starting next year, every Saturn produced and sold in the US will be based on an import design from either the Daewoo corp or the Opel corp (both of which are GM subsidiaries). For now, some will be built in the US, but as GM continues it's belt tightening, you will begin to see direct imports from foreign factories for the entire line.
You asked for facts. Thats a fact.
Yes that's a fact. That's not what I'm talking about. You're just saying something anybody with a little bit of research shows. When I say facts, I want some hard evidence that you'll see Korean made Saturns in the showroom soon. Which, there is none of.
Saturn, as we know it is dead. It is soon to be GM's next GEO brand. (Remember the Geo experiment from 1986-1992? The Storm? The Spectrum? The Tracker? Remember what a disaster that was? Rebadged imported cars and trucks sold under an 'Independent' name plate?)
The idea of Geo isn't the same as the idea of Saturn. Geos were outside brand cars...sort of like the illegitimate children of a logo and a car. Saturns are still GM-owned designs.
The innovation is gone. GM is hemmoraging cash every day. Of course they're going to cut costs. But it's the consumer that pays the ultimate price.
My Accord may be foreign owned but the employees are americans, with american assembly jobs. Honda's making money and opening new assembly plants in the US. GM is hemmoraging cash. They're closing plants and laying off American workers. I could care less who the owner is, as long as my neighbor still has a job (since my industry is service oriented, I depend on those same manufacturing jobs that GM, Ford and Chrysler are shipping over seas!)
You do know that GM still employs many more employees than Toyota does (and since Toyota is larger than Honda I'd say them too)?
Oh, you wanted proof?
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=109705
" Winstorm from GM-Daewoo: The new SUV will be built exclusively in South Korea but will go on sale around the world under a plethora of GM badges: Chevrolet, Opel, Vauxhall, Saturn , and of course Daewoo."
That's right, sports fans. The OUTLOOK will be a Korean built Saturn.
Ain't that just a gas????
Jeez you just keep digging deeper. You've got to get your eyes checked. Do you actually think the Winstorm and the Outlook are the same car?! :eek: :no: :dizzy:
The Winstorm isn't looking to come to the US. In Europe it's the Chevy Captiva. It's similar to the Opel/Vauxhall Antara and 2008 VUE, as they are both on the Theta architecture, but the Winstorm and Antara aren't the same vehicle by any means either.
Read the article again. The new plant is the assembly plant. It is where the component parts will be assembled into the completed product.
The country of origin for the components will be the Democratic Republic of South Korea.
This is GM's only option to avoid import tariffs. If they import the completed vehicle, it will cost them more. If they assemble it in Detroit, then they avoid the importation costs.
Its also a marketing coup for them since they make the average consumer believe that they're actually buying an American made car.
This is the same GM that's importing Chinese built engines for the Equinox and the Torrent. It's no suprise that they do this as well.
Its all about globalization. They can employ a skilled work force for pennies on the dollar to actually make the components then accept the laud and adulation as they pay some unemployed factory worker in Detroit $17.00/hr to put it together. Its all about the money. Build it cheap, sell it high.
GM's global strategy sucks.
Well, first, the Equinox/Torrent are likely to get GM's 3.5L OHV and 3.6L DOHC engines for 2008. But moving on...
Their global strategy doesn't "suck," it's more diverse. You don't think that if Toyota or Honda owned a Korean car company they'd utilize it for the world market? You know that Hyundai got a lot of help from Mitsubishi in its startup, and Kia had help from Mazda and Ford.
Furthermore, the Outlook is built RIGHT HERE IN MICHIGAN, USA. You're so caught up in your badmouthing, you failed to actually check anything else. There are pictures on the Internet of the Outlook and Acadia on the friggin' Delta Township, MI assembly line...on this very website, too.
And don't think for a second that Honda and Toyota aren't in it for the money too. That's why they're selling cars.
When you see the '07 Outlooks and '08 Saturns hit the show room floor, pay close attention to the bottom of the sticker.
The country of origin for the Engine and transmission will say "Korea" It will also say "Assembled in america of 95% foreign and 5% domestic parts".
Don't say I didn't warn you..... It's the biggest reason I canceled my order on the '07 Sky. If I wanted an Opel, I'll go buy an Opel.
The Sky is more of an Saturn rebadged as an Opel.
You are really not paying attention to all the facts. The Aura shares very little with the Vectra. It shares more with its American Malibu [Maxx]/G6 counterparts than the Vectra, which it shares mostly the main platform and the nose with. The Aura is several inches longer, in wheelbase and length, and offers different powertrains and interiors. And, the Aura is, as mentioned, built in the Kansas plant.
The Outlook, as many have been over, is built in Michigan. It shares nothing with an Opel or a Daewoo.
No matter what, the powertrains are more likely to be American-built, unless they are directly shared between Europe and the US. We use different engines/powertrains than Europe does.
Why do you bother to complain on this forum anymore?...You've already decided you hate GM and Ford now.
davidsky
10-31-2006, 06:37 PM
Oh, to complicate things, the new VUE, the Opel Frontera/Antara isn't made by Opel - it's actually manufactured by Daewoo in Korea. No idea where everything else will be made but I'm not certain that Springhill will be around much longer.
The Vue/Antara was designed in Korea by Daewoo. It will be manufactured in the market it will be sold in. Canada, USA or Mexico for the VUE.
99blacktop
10-31-2006, 09:55 PM
Read the article again. The new plant is the assembly plant. It is where the component parts will be assembled into the completed product.
The country of origin for the components will be the Democratic Republic of South Korea.
This is GM's only option to avoid import tariffs. If they import the completed vehicle, it will cost them more. If they assemble it in Detroit, then they avoid the importation costs.
Its also a marketing coup for them since they make the average consumer believe that they're actually buying an American made car.
This is the same GM that's importing Chinese built engines for the Equinox and the Torrent. It's no suprise that they do this as well.
Its all about globalization. They can employ a skilled work force for pennies on the dollar to actually make the components then accept the laud and adulation as they pay some unemployed factory worker in Detroit $17.00/hr to put it together. Its all about the money. Build it cheap, sell it high.
GM's global strategy sucks.I'm confused, isn't this almost exactly what the foreign companies are doing? Rather than build that Honda in Japan and ship it over here and pay the taxes, they simply build it here which might cost more money for the labor, but they definitely make up for it in other areas. Why do you think Mercedes and Hyundai built those state of the art billion dollar facilities in Alabama? Do you really think they care that they care about the "made in USA" sticker they can slap on the door? It's profit, plain and simple. Mercedes, for example, knew that the majority of their new SUV sales would be in the US, so it was a financial decision to put the plant in Alabama and get a nice 'foreign trade zone' fence slapped around the building. Now they pay less taxes/tariffs and don't have to ship almost every vehicle across the ocean.
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